Heresy 142 [World of Ice and Fire spoilers]

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Very Interesting, Snowfyre. And it goes on from there.

This whole ordeal ends with Jon as the LC at the wall with the power to decide who passes through the wall. Beyond that he has gained knowledge on the various old powers, then he turned Mance loose south of the wall.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Very Interesting, Snowfyre. And it goes on from there.

This whole ordeal ends with Jon as the LC at the wall with the power to decide who passes through the wall. Beyond that he has gained knowledge on the various old powers, then he turned Mance loose south of the wall.

Yeah - and he lets the wildlings through. And then we get the Pink Letter, and the assassination attempt... and Old Nan's comment that the Wall will stand and monsters cannot pass "so long as the Watch remains true."

But it could go even further than that. In fact, if Jon himself is the danger against which the NW sought to defend itself - then, looking at the rest of what Jeor and Qhorin had to say about that danger raises some serious questions about the dark road ahead for Jon Snow.

"I tell you, my lord, the darkness is coming. There are wild things in the woods, direwolves and mammoths and snow bears the size of aurochs, and I have seen darker shapes in my dreams... Denys Mallister writes that the mountain people are moving south, slipping past the Shadow Tower in numbers greater than ever before. They are running, my lord... but running from what?" Lord Mormont moved to the window and stared out into the night. "These are old bones, Lannister, but they have never felt a chill like this. Tell the king what I say, I pray you. Winter is coming, and when the Long Night falls, only the Night's Watch will stand between the realm and the darkness that sweeps from the north. The gods help us all if we are not ready."

"The fire will soon go out," Qhorin said, "but if the Wall should ever fall, all the fires will go out."

And from Mance and Dalla, we get:

"If I sound the Horn of Winter, the Wall will fall. Or so the songs would have me believe. There are those among my people who want nothing more..."

"But once the Wall is fallen," Dalla said, "what will stop the Others?"

Not to mention the Mel's continuing visions of skulls and danger associated with Jon Snow...

.

[Black Crow]

Bears some thinking on which I don't have time to do right now as I'm running late for work, but its a very interesting hypothesis which appears to have more going for it than the favourite "Jon is Azor Ahai".

[ummester]

I haven't read all the heresy threads - there are so many of them.

Just wanted to comment on aligning with the Ragnarok, that is mentioned at the start of this thread, how Nordic mythology bears similarity to Proto Indo-European mythology and the comment that it might be too obvious is GRRM follows a Pandemonium/Ragnarok style conclusion. I think it will only be obvious if GRRM picks the sides associated with the more modern rise of Christianity - ie Odin is good (like God) and Loki is bad (like Satan). If GRRM styles his version of Ragnarok with less of a good/evil division - ie Loki is half right and so is Odin, Fenfir is as sympathetic as Tyr and so on - then it would not feel obvious at all.

Very interesting that The Snowfyre Chorus has cited an number of references to the Wall falling - it has made me think it is a distinct possibility now.

Like I said, I've not read all of the Heresy threads - have any ideas or references on the Others being summoned/invited into the 7 Kingdoms been discussed? Or, in expansion of The Snowfyre Chorus' original thought - what if Jon will not only be the cause of the wall falling but is also the darkness (or leader of the darkness) that sweeps from the north.

[DarkRose_9]

I haven't read all the heresy threads - there are so many of them.

Like I said, I've not read all of the Heresy threads - have any ideas or references on the Others being summoned/invited into the 7 Kingdoms been discussed? Or, in expansion of The Snowfyre Chorus' original thought - what if Jon will not only be the cause of the wall falling but is also the darkness (or leader of the darkness) that sweeps from the north.

Check out Wolfmaid's guide to heresy (it's now pinned for easy access). It's a good place to start to get the general feel of heresy, as there are links to the major essays/topics as well as normal threads. ^_^

[Black Crow]

I haven't read all the heresy threads - there are so many of them...

What Dark Rose said as to Heresy in general, and as to your other points: Heresy is more of a state of mind than a fixed set of beliefs, but broadly speaking there's a fairly broad consensus in these here parts that all is not as it seems and there is not enough weight attached outside of Heresy to Qhorin Halfhand's warning about the old powers and the trees having eyes again, or to his taking Jon with him because the wilderness is the realm of the old gods of the First Men - and of the Starks; which very firmly suggests both a connection between the three-fingered tree-huggers and the blue-eyed white walkers[all six of them?] - and the Stark Kings of Winter.

Ragnarok is certainly in there but its part of a mix which includes Celtic mythology as well, albeit both share the same Indo-European roots and while it offers some useful parallels I'd be very wary of using it as a template for what's to come.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Very interesting that The Snowfyre Chorus has cited an number of references to the Wall falling - it has made me think it is a distinct possibility now.

Like I said, I've not read all of the Heresy threads - have any ideas or references on the Others being summoned/invited into the 7 Kingdoms been discussed? Or, in expansion of The Snowfyre Chorus' original thought - what if Jon will not only be the cause of the wall falling but is also the darkness (or leader of the darkness) that sweeps from the north?

Yes... I didn't go that far in my post, but that is the direction I was headed. The "Night's King 2.0" is a recurring topic around here, and it's a fair bet that Jon himself has already been tabbed the next King of Winter. If the words weapon, power, and fell sorcery serve as any kind of foreshadowing for Jon's role, then I think we really need to take these ideas seriously.

As I've highlighted elsewhere (past Heresy discussions), there is also a distinct possibility that Melisandre played a role in the attempt on Jon's life at the end of ADWD - either by setting him up directly, or by positioning him in a way that others decided to take him out (think: Pink Letter). Given Jon's prominence in her visions, and her invitation that he "take [her] hand" (a consistent precursor in Martin's text to attempted murders) - it would make a lot of sense to think that, by the end of ADWD, Mel had put 2 and 2 together and concluded that Jon himself was a large significant threat to her scheme. It would also make sense, given what I've just observed about the tendency of prophecy-driven decisions to backfire in these books - that when she put 2 and 2 together... she ended up with 5. Some of us have considered whether Mel's visions were manipulated in some way, and posited that if that were the case, then her handling of Jon on the basis of those visions would almost certainly work against her interests. This was discussed recently in another thread, regarding Bloodraven's apparent access to Mel's fires. There would be great irony - consistent with Martin's telling so far - if Mel did indeed participate in setting up the assassination attempt, and it was that event that triggered or completed Jon's transformation into a "some weapon" of power "to bring down the Wall."

Just glancing through the text a bit, it also seems to me that there's a good bit of subtle foreshadowing that this might be the case. Here's some of the set up:

She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai, Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers. (5.31, MELISANDRE)

"The Horn of Joramun?" Melisandre said. "No. Call it the Horn of Darkness. If the Wall falls, night falls as well, the long night that never ends. It must not happen, will not happen! (5.10, JON)

And when she gazes into the fires:

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment... but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf’s face threw back his head and howled.

Snowflakes swirled from a dark sky and ashes rose to meet them, the grey and the white whirling around each other as flaming arrows arced above a wooden wall and dead things shambled silent through the cold, beneath a great grey cliff where fires burned inside a hundred caves. Then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in, impossibly cold, and one by one the fires went out. Afterward only the skulls remained.

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. Melisandre had seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it. Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark. He would not listen... Skulls. A thousand skulls, and the bastard boy again. Jon Snow. (5.31, MELISANDRE)

Among other things she tells Jon, she says:

"When I gaze into the flames, I can see through stone and earth, and find the truth within men's souls. I can speak to kings long dead and children not yet born, and watch the years and seasons flicker past, until the end of days."

"Are your fires never wrong?"

"Never... though we priests are mortal and sometimes err, mistaking this must come for this may come."

"I have seen you in my fires, Jon Snow... I have dreamed of your Wall, Jon Snow. Great was the lore that raised it, and great the spells locked beneath its ice. We walk beneath one of the hinges of the world." Melisandre gazed up at it, her breath a warm moist cloud in the air. "This is my place as it is yours, and soon enough you may have grave need of me. Do not refuse my friendship, Jon. I have seen you in the storm, hard-pressed, with enemies on every side. You have so many enemies... It is not the foes who curse you to your face that you must fear, but those who smile when you are looking and sharpen their knives when you turn your back. You would do well to keep your wolf close beside you. Ice, I see, and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red and hard, and naked steel. It was very cold." (5.03, JON)

[unworried well]

Can anyone remind me of the other times you talked about Ragnarok? I only remember Heresy 61. And maybe Heresy 127?

I would like to read them again.

ETA: And since I decided to delurk here, thank you all for the great work you do!

[Black Crow]

Ah its good to see people coming out of the darkness to play. Other than Heresy 61 I don't recall a particular thread on Ragnarok, rather its one of these things which runs through more than a few of them, but if there is anything in particular you want to chase [Norse mythology isn't really my sphere] just raise it and we'll see where it takes up, but above all POST.

[Black Crow]

..."I have seen you in my fires, Jon Snow... I have dreamed of your Wall, Jon Snow. Great was the lore that raised it, and great the spells locked beneath its ice. We walk beneath one of the hinges of the world." Melisandre gazed up at it, her breath a warm moist cloud in the air. "This is my place as it is yours, and soon enough you may have grave need of me. Do not refuse my friendship, Jon. I have seen you in the storm, hard-pressed, with enemies on every side. You have so many enemies... It is not the foes who curse you to your face that you must fear, but those who smile when you are looking and sharpen their knives when you turn your back. You would do well to keep your wolf close beside you. Ice, I see, and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red and hard, and naked steel. It was very cold." (5.03, JON)

Something I find interesting in this is her implication in saying the Wall is as much hers as his is that in the context she doesn't appear to be referring to his being the Lord Commander but something much more fundamental, especially when coupled with the episode when she walks with him through the tunnel and makes sure he sees how the ice melts as she passes. Its very much as if she is passing a recognition signal:

"I am an agent of Fire as you are an agent of Ice - we're only agents so lets work out a modus vivendi."

[wolfmaid7]

Speaking of Mance, and the notion that these children of Winterfell are "powers" sought after and/or collected by various players...

I was rereading a bit of ASOS, and got to this bit here:

Jon had joined the wildlings at Qhorin Halfhand's command. "Ride with them, eat with them, fight with them," the ranger had told him, the night before he died. "And watch." But all his watching had learned him little. The Halfhand had suspected that the wildlings had gone up into the bleak and barren Frostfangs in search of some weapon, some power, some fell sorcery with which to break the Wall... but if they had found any such, no one was boasting of it openly, or showing it to Jon. Nor had Mance Rayder confided any of his plans or strategies...

And it suddenly occurred to me: what if Mance really had gone up into the Frostfangs seeking, or waiting for, "some weapon, some power, some fell sorcery... to break the Wall" -- and that weapon was Jon?

Wouldn't that fit with the way we know prophecy and/or dreaming seems to work - at least in terms of how decisions made on the basis of such visions often seem to backfire, or precipitate just the scenario one hopes to avoid?

Mel gazes into her fires, and tells Stannis that if he sails to Storm's End, he'll win the best part of Renly's power. But that if he sails to King's Landing, "Renly would ride out of the south in his green armor to smash his host beneath the [city] walls." So Stannis sails to Storm's End... and ends up getting smashed beneath the walls of King's Landing by Renly's green-armored ghost.

Jeor Mormont takes his rangers north to the Fist, because he fears that "the cold winds are rising," "the darkness is coming," and he has "seen darker shapes in [his] dreams." He takes Jon with him because he's come to believe that Jon was "meant to be [t]here," and Qhorin takes the boy into the Frostfangs because "the old gods are still strong beyond the Wall. The gods of the First Men... and the Starks." Meanwhile, the entire ranging is organized, as a practical matter, to find out where Mance Rayder had taken the wildlings, and what they were up to. Eventually Qhorin commands Jon to yield himself to Mance - to join the wildling host, to learn what they sought in the mountains and whether they found it.

Turns out - Mance was looking (or waiting) for something in those mountains. And in the end, the only thing we know for sure they found up there was... Jon Snow himself.

.

This is superb Snowy as it higlights i think perfectly the place Jon most likely will occupy in the coming books and on a funny note looking bak at Martin's view on prophecy unfolding in an unsuspecting way when people put their own spin interpret it wrong etc. I concur that Jon's stabbing if it was premeditated to get his alligence or otherwise move him out the way;is the exact thing that will put him where he "needs to be".

I am a firm believer that Jon IS the North and the next KOW and one part of the equation that will reset this monster.From where i sit the big problem i see is the plan to institute a Summer that never ends.Nowhere have we seen inferred or stated that anyone or faction "wanting" a never ending Winter.No one is working toward that goal.

The fire element has too many parties wanting that and if there is anything that needs to be beaten back it is that.It is the mounting threat,as Leaf says "Fire is always hungry" and that's exactly how its proponents are acting. I've stated that it is Winter's time to shine what will be the defining factor is how long it lasts and it should be appropriate for life in Westeros.

[wolfmaid7]

Something I find interesting in this is her implication in saying the Wall is as much hers as his is that in the context she doesn't appear to be referring to his being the Lord Commander but something much more fundamental, especially when coupled with the episode when she walks with him through the tunnel and makes sure he sees how the ice melts as she passes. Its very much as if she is passing a recognition signal:

"I am an agent of Fire as you are an agent of Ice - we're only agents so lets work out a modus vivendi."

To add to what you're saying BC i got the sense and its a small one that she was saying she has as much right to claim it. Remember we talked a back about the Wall in particular the Black Gate being a kind of power nexus that can switch alligence depending on who holds it. Men claimed it by conquest, but they are going to loose it. Mel being at the Wall gives her the oppurtunity to control it if she can. I have always been disturbed that this woman who was said to be Stannis's red shadow chose not to go with him,but instead stay at the wall.She didn't even fight the prospect of her staying instead she claims the Wall is her place.

I think the power struggle has already started at the Wall.

[Black Crow]

"I have seen you in my fires, Jon Snow...

Context, as always, is everything and its worth bearing that in mind when considering her "show me Stannis" monologue. Jon's appearance doesn't come out of the blue to proclaim him the true Azor Ahai, as the faithful claim, rather its a continuation of an existing "conversation".

[Matthew.]

Ragnarok is certainly in there but its part of a mix which includes Celtic mythology as well, albeit both share the same Indo-European roots and while it offers some useful parallels I'd be very wary of using it as a template for what's to come.

The one area where I think Ragnarok might be a template for what's to come is with regard to Azor Ahai, with AA most obviously correlating to Surtr, who comes from the 'south' bearing a flaming sword to burn down the old world. In ASOIAF's case, of course, I would interpret this as more metaphorical than literal, like the impact Dany has already had on Slaver's Bay, and the economy of Essos.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Context, as always, is everything and its worth bearing in mind when considering her "show me Stannis" monologue. His appearance doesn't come out of the blue to proclaim him the true Azor Ahai as the faithful claim, rather its a continuation of an existing "conversation".

Agreed. That statement ("I have seen you in my fires, Jon Snow") appears in Chapter 3 of ADWD, while Stannis is still at Castle Black. By the time we read Mel's prayer ("show me Stannis... your king, your instrument")... we're in Chapter 31, Stannis is headed to Winterfell (the reason she's looking for intel) and the red woman's been seeing Jon's face in her fires for a long, long time. So the appearance of Jon's face in the fire is most definitely not R'hllor's response to Mel's specific request in Chapter 31. Though it will certainly appear that way, taken out of context (as you just said).

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

This is superb Snowy...

Thanks! I did a little mental double-take myself, when I read that passage last night. It just fit so cleanly with the "nukes" idea we were just discussing. :cheers:

[Black Crow]

And then, inevitably the question then arises that if R'hllor [or whatever] is not suddenly whipping away the tablecloth to reveal Jon Snow is the true Azor Ahai, why is he dominating her prime-time viewing and why is Melisandre so keen to win him over or at least to neutralise him. She neither recognises him as Azor Ahai not yet as the Great Other, but its implied in chapter 31 that all those earlier visions were similar to the skulls which we're treated to. The impression we get in context of both visions and her conversations is that she reckons he is powerful and potentially dangerous and that it is that reason that she is trying to win him to her side - and perhaps in the last resort destroying him in order to deny him to the other lot.

[wolfmaid7]

And then, inevitably the question then arises that if R'hllor [or whatever] is not suddenly whipping away the tablecloth to reveal Jon Snow is the true Azor Ahai, why is he dominating her prime-time viewing and why is Melisandre so keen to win him over or at least to neutralise him. She neither recognises him as Azor Ahai not yet as the Great Other, but its implied in chapter 31 that all those earlier visions were similar to the skulls which we're treated to. The impression we get in context of both visions and her conversations is that she reckons he is powerful and potentially dangerous and that it is that reason that she is trying to win him to her side - and perhaps in the last resort destroying him in order to deny him to the other lot.

That is the thing right there.Mel herself propositions Jon to teach him how to use the power in him and his beast.That is something that doesn't get brought up enough. She knows Jon is powerful, untrained but powerful.

He is yet another potential tool.The best nuke she has access to which she lost when Arya didn't show. He wasn't to keen on her visual skills and above all she was trying to gain his trust.

I think Mel did interpret the vision in totality wrong.She really thought Jon is in danger.We hear it in her POV.I think the vision was a warning against him, he is in my mind a threat to the total conquest of Fire.

I'll add more to this in a bit

[Black Crow]

There's also a sense here that Mel is running away with herself.

There's a fairly strong impression that in the beginning she was pretty far down the food chain and just one among the many Red Priests sent out within the last hundred years. Maester Yandel assumes as have we that they were just missionaries, but given that it has only been happening within a century of the present time there has to be a strong suspicion that the coming present crisis was predicted - magically of otherwise - and that their primary purpose was not to convert the heathen, who in a very Calvinist fashion are already doomed anyway, but to identify and take possession of Azor Ahai.

Clever Mel has done this, not by chance but because she was looking for him and found what she wanted to find in Stannis Baratheon, the warrior from Dragonstone, the smoking island in the salt sea. Sorted. She's the one who has done it. We the readers think we know otherwise of course and in the meantime she's tooled up at the Wall which wasn't a destination she had in mind but seemingly offers the opportunity to prove that Stan's the man.

Only now she feels the power of the Wall, this hinge between the realms there's a dangerous feeling she's starting to think bigger.

[Voice]

There's also a sense here that Mel is running away with herself.

I couldn't agree more. I would even go so far as to say that her POV chapter serves nothing if not to demonstrate the inadequacy she hides, as well as the frustration growing within her, now that she is in the presence of true/old/elder powers.