Theory on Serra/Varys's origins (WOIAF spoilers)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

As you and I discussed via PM, Bittersteel and Bloodraven were fighting over what was a clearly very young Shiera Seastar. It seems unlikely to me that Bittersteel would risk insulting Daemon by openly fighting for Shiera while betrothed to Calla. Bittersteel perhaps wanted a bride with Targaryen blood, and may have set his sights on Calla after losing out on Shiera.

My best guess is that the betrothal of Aegor to Calla was not long before the outbreak of hostilities. We know it was not after, if TWOIAF is accurate:

Whatever the case may be, Aegor Rivers soon began to press Daemon Blackfyre to proclaim for the throne, and all the more so after Daemon agreed to wed his eldest daughter, Calla, to Aegor.

I agree that it would be an insult to still fight over Shiera, whilst being betrothed to the eldest daughter of the guy who you want to have gain the throne. Which is why I aree that the betrothal, though it definitly occured before the start of the Rebellion, could not have occured all too long before Rebellion's start.. A year before, perhaps?

Though she could have been 17 years old at the outbreak of the war, the year 178 AC is practically ruled out for her birth year, as too much would need to happen within a few months in order for Shiera to have been born that year.. Yet there are still five years in which she could have been born, before Aegon's reign ended...

It seems to me, that the fighting over Shiera would have lasted only a few years.. followed by the betrothal to Calla..

But my original point was, that Calla would have been incredibly young at this betrotal. No matter which way we look at it. The interesting thing is, Daemon already had Aegor's support... he could have used a betrothal-promise concerning Calla on another lord, a lord he wished to bind to his cause, yet he promised her to Aegor... I'd be interested to find out what happened to Calla after the war.. Did she live long enough to wed? Did she have children with Aegor? Did she remain in Tyrosh when Aegor formed the GC in 212 AC? Which Blackfyre Rebellions did she live to see? It would seem that by 211 AC she was still alive (because otherwise, Rohanne had given birth nine times, instead of eight (twins, 5 other sons, at least 2 daughters)... Bloodraven mention's Daemon II's sisters after all).

[Trogdor Targaryen]

I need to not post stuff at 2 a.m.

Non sense! It is the golden hour for theorizing.

[History of Westeros]

Non sense! It is the golden hour for theorizing.

Agree!

Apple, you should post theories at all hours of the day :)

[In A Coat of Gold]

My thing is, if ( And I really, REally mean if) Aegon is fake, he would have to be a pretty convincing Fake. In order to a convincing Fake, he would have to have met three criteria:

1All Targ Features, (white Hair, Purple Eyes).

2The right age (between late 16 to early 19)

3HAS TO LOOK LIKE RHAEGAR!

The Dayes may have Targ features, but he( has to be a He) be the right age, and would he look like Rhaegar?

People from Essos would have people with Targs feature, but would they Look LIKE RHAEGAR?

All I keep getting AND hearing at best is two out of three.

All really think that Varys and Illyrio could convince so many with just a 2 out of 3?

Young Griff is the exact same age as Aegon. He's listed as 18 in ADWD.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Young Griff is the exact same age as Aegon. He's listed as 18 in ADWD.

Well that settles it then!

[Justin Amey]

That wasn't my point. We agree that there is variation in Targs. No dispute there.

You said "genetics has fuck all to do with it". I was disputing that comment, because they eye color *might* be a clue. I pointed to Ned's experience learning about black hair winning out not to show *how* genetics works or anything like that, but to show that genetics matter. That the characters pay attention to it, and GRRM clearly wanted us readers to take note as well.

That doesn't mean Aegon's eye color proves a damn thing. It only means it *might* be a clue. You're saying his eye color is completely meaningless. I don't think we can be that certain. fAegon's parentage is a mystery. If it turns out he really is Rhaegar's son (again, this is not my belief, but I don't consider it impossible), then in retrospect the eye color will look like a big clue that some of us ignored. If he's Illyrio's son with Serra, then how lucky did they get that the kid actually came out with purple eyes?

Varys would have a better chance hitting a modern days lottery than something like producing a carbon copy of Rhaegar right when he needed it.

I think Aegon is either Illyrio's son or some random bastard or kid from Lys that Varys found. By the way, has anyone ever seen purple eyes in real life? Because apparently it is a real color although quite rare.

I've continuously post this as well: Why would Illyrio, A rich magister gave up his only child(IF Aegon was his) for adoption to a complete stranger to be raised believing he's someone else child?

Young Griff is the exact same age as Aegon. He's listed as 18 in ADWD.

exactly why i believe he is the son of rhaegar.

the odds of Varys or Illyrio finding a placement child that is the right age, Has all the features of, and looks like what they looking for elsewhere other than the real deal is ludicrous.

[Tywin's Sideburns]

I've continuously post this as well: Why would Illyrio, A rich magister gave up his only child(IF Aegon was his) for adoption to a complete stranger to be raised believing he's someone else child?

exactly why i believe he is the son of rhaegar.

the odds of Varys or Illyrio finding a placement child that is the right age, Has all the features of, and looks like what they looking for elsewhere other than the real deal is ludicrous.

Maybe Illyrio has a goal to put his seed on the iron throne or have a stable 'Targareyen' ruler that he invested in to be the best ruler possible so that trade is more lucrative for him and Pentos? Quite a few reasons why this would benefit Illyrio both personally, politically and economically.

Also I do not think it would be impossible to find someone that looks Valyrian and is the same age as Aegon. Lys is a good place because the 'blood of Valyria' runs quite strong there in addition to other free cities (excluding Braavos).

[Justin Amey]

Maybe Illyrio has a goal to put his seed on the iron throne or have a stable 'Targareyen' ruler that he invested in to be the best ruler possible so that trade is more lucrative for him and Pentos? Quite a few reasons why this would benefit Illyrio both personally, politically and economically.

Also I do not think it would be impossible to find someone that looks Valyrian and is the same age as Aegon. Lys is a good place because the 'blood of Valyria' runs quite strong there in addition to other free cities (excluding Braavos).

His friend Varys is in KL, increasing trading can be done by him, Why wait 18 years to put something like that in motion.

Also as i said before, I know there are people with the Essos with targ features, but that is not the point, Aegon is suppose to be the son of rhaegar, Having any kid with Valyrian will not do, he has to look like Rhaegar, plain and simple, Otherwise JonCon would be fooled.

And don't get me "JonCon Wants to Believe That Aegon is Real" nonsense, JonCon has been with the GC for 5 years, so he has to been to Lys, he would have seen plenty people with Valyrian in them, how would he then be fooled by fooled by a False aegon

And When would Illyrio or varys have the time to find them, Varys could have left KL for too Long, and Illyrio never met Rhaegar, how would he know what he or his son look like?

[ChillyPolly]

Young Griff is the exact same age as Aegon. He's listed as 18 in ADWD.

Young Griff is listed as being "the same age" as Aegon, in the ADWD appendix, because he is listed as BEING Aegon in the ADWD appendix. Obviously, if YG is Aegon, he must be the same age.

Unfortunately, the appendices merely reflect general belief. They also state that Aegon is dead, that Jon Snow is Ned's bastard, and that Joff et al. are the children of King Robert.

[ChillyPolly]

Speculative theory, but interesting.

Question: If you are going to speculate that Serra and Varys are siblings, what is stopping you from going all the way and speculating that they are the same person? As surprises go, would that not be more punchy and more elegant?

[Justin Amey]

Speculative theory, but interesting.

Question: If you are going to speculate that Serra and Varys are siblings, what is stopping you from going all the way and speculating that they are the same person? As surprises go, would that not be more punchy and more elegant?

Serra has blue eyes

What color does Varys have?

[ChillyPolly]

Serra has blue eyes

What color does Varys have?

IIRC, his eye color is never mentioned. Serra and Varys both have soft hands, though.

I would not make too much of Serra's blue eyes either. It is only a portrait, and eye color can vary depending on the light, as happens with Young Griff. One could argue that Illyrio would never have shown an accurate portrait of Serra to Tyrion if Serra were incognito, and the portrait were more helpful than misleading.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Young Griff is listed as being "the same age" as Aegon, in the ADWD appendix, because he is listed as BEING Aegon in the ADWD appendix. Obviously, if YG is Aegon, he must be the same age.

Unfortunately, the appendices merely reflect general belief. They also state that Aegon is dead, that Jon Snow is Ned's bastard, and that Joff et al. are the children of King Robert.

Now there you go stirrin up the pot after the great www.asoiaf.westeros.org Aegon schism had been settled...

[Lost Melnibonean]

Oops.

[Justin Amey]

IIRC, his eye color is never mentioned. Serra and Varys both have soft hands, though.

I would not make too much of Serra's blue eyes either. It is only a portrait, and eye color can vary depending on the light, as happens with Young Griff. One could argue that Illyrio would never have shown an accurate portrait of Serra to Tyrion if Serra were incognito, and the portrait were more helpful than misleading.

Young Griff had Dyed blue hair covering his eyes

[ChillyPolly]

Young Griff had Dyed blue hair covering his eyes

And "Serra" has blue paint covering the canvass. So I'm not sure I see your point.

[Fire Eater]

His friend Varys is in KL, increasing trading can be done by him, Why wait 18 years to put something like that in motion.

Because you can't have an 18 year-old claiming to be a one year-old baby all grown up.

Also as i said before, I know there are people with the Essos with targ features, but that is not the point, Aegon is suppose to be the son of rhaegar, Having any kid with Valyrian will not do, he has to look like Rhaegar, plain and simple, Otherwise JonCon would be fooled.

And don't get me "JonCon Wants to Believe That Aegon is Real" nonsense, JonCon has been with the GC for 5 years, so he has to been to Lys, he would have seen plenty people with Valyrian in them, how would he then be fooled by fooled by a False aegon

And When would Illyrio or varys have the time to find them, Varys could have left KL for too Long, and Illyrio never met Rhaegar, how would he know what he or his son look like?

Except you never know what the kid will look grown up when he is an infant. Also, few kids look exactly like their parents. He has the coloring like the real Aegon, and that would be enough for Connington, who is desperate for a chance to redeem himself. Aegon also has a Blackfyre mother, and the Blackfyres are genetically Targaryens.

Because none of the people presented their kids as Aegon to him in Lys while Varys presented this boy as Aegon, Rhaegar's son who was of an age with the real Aegon had he grown up.

The kid is Illyrio and Serra's, their entire plan is to put that child on the IT. The plan isn't to put some random kid on the IT, but Illyrio's half-Blackfyre son. Even Tyrion noted there was something in this venture worth more to Illyrio than coin or castles.

[Justin Amey]

And "Serra" has blue paint covering the canvass. So I'm not sure I see your point.

I'm saying o

Because you can't have an 18 year-old claiming to be a one year-old baby all grown up.

Except you never know what the kid will look grown up when he is an infant. Also, few kids look exactly like their parents. He has the coloring like the real Aegon, and that would be enough for Connington, who is desperate for a chance to redeem himself. Aegon also has a Blackfyre mother, and the Blackfyres are genetically Targaryens.

Because none of the people presented their kids as Aegon to him in Lys while Varys presented this boy as Aegon, Rhaegar's son who was of an age with the real Aegon had he grown up.

The kid is Illyrio and Serra's, their entire plan is to put that child on the IT. The plan isn't to put some random kid on the IT, but Illyrio's half-Blackfyre son. Even Tyrion noted there was something in this venture worth more to Illyrio than coin or castles.

Aegon was already establish as Targ looking, so he should have grown up looking like Rhaegar. Ned, Brienne and Stannis saw Gendry(never met him before) knew immediately he was the son Robert

JonCon Don't even like or trust Varys or llyrio, that would make him objective enough see if he was false, not be coming to being spoon fed nonsense and he eats it no problem

Maelys the Monstrous of the male Blackfyre, (IF) there any females out there they have no choice but reproduce out their line. If Serra is suppose be from that female line, you think that her(blue eyes)+ Illyrio(bravos) would produce Aegon (purple eyes)?

Tyrion said all that before he knew of Aegon, The whole conversation in the wagon was about Danerys and the GC.