Sansa: The Unreliable Narrator

[Pod The Impaler]

What "internal pretenses" are you talking about? Only three out of those things you listed could be called pretenses by any stretch of the imagination. And only two out of those are actually real, straight-up examples of Sansa being in denial - the first two - and she woke up from those, dramatically, a long, long time ago.

The only other thing you list that could be arguably considered an example of pretense/not wanting to face the reality, is LF - but that mostly manifests itself in her not actively thinking about his sexual interest in her post-ASOS; she is perfectly aware that he is a conniving murderer, but she also thinks of him as her protector. She thinks she would rather get away from him, but knows she has no choice, so she tries to see his positive sides. It is not so much denial but an attempt to talk herself into being OK with him.

But how was she ever not seeing or "pretending" that there were no angry starving people in the streets of King's Landing? I don't understand your point. ... She understood everything perfectly clearly, she knew Tyrion wanted her sexually and that she really didn't want sex with him and that she wanted to get away from the Lannisters. She really didn't get any hints about Sandor being attracted to her, until the night of the Blackwater when she thought he was going to kiss her, so clearly she thought he was attracted to her, and she now thinks he kissed her, so she clearly thinks he was attracted to her. It's debatable whether and to what extent she is aware of what exactly she feels for him, and she has created the UnKiss memory - but at the time, while he was around, she wasn't "pretending" anything regarding him. She knew Lysa was nuts - what was she supposed to do about that? And there's no evidence of SR being mentally ill - he is physically ill, spoiled and annoying, and she is certainly aware of that. I don't see what pretense she supposedly has about SR.

Examples where she reacts in an avoidant manner?

Well, for a surprisingly long time she "pretends" Arya was to blame for the incident with Mycah, not Joffrey. That is one example of where she told herself a version of the truth that wasn't true. I think the issue there was no intellectual, but emotional - if Joffrey was the kind of boy she witnessed right there on that day, well that calls into question a lot of things which end up taking her to a negative emotional place.

In the riot, she knew enough to know she is in danger from an angry mob, that they meant her great harm, but her memories of course are all focused on her personal circumstances - not surprising because she is 12 so she is not going to see it as an adult such as Tyrion would. Wisdom comes from experience, but not right away.

With the framing of those who want her (Tyrion, Sandor) I thinks there is more to it than merely knowing that they want her - it's in being able to deal with it emotionally, as well as her own feelings on the matter. Remember, this is also Sansa who has such deeply ingrained "good girl" training. So what we see is of a very warped quality - Tyrion more monstrous than he is. Later (with some reflection) she is almost ready to defend him to her aunt Lysa when she has to catch herself again, and remember he was not really on her side.

Of course, one of the big ones is how her thoughts about Sandor tend to mutate. Sandor holding a knife to her throat, drunk, and menacing her because that's all he knows how to do, becomes Sandor kissing her romantically ... because emotionally that's what she wants it to have been. She's not wrong to think there's something more to their interactions than just what was plainly spoken, but this is some 12 year old maid, still fairly innocent. It does not come into her head the way it would for Arianne Martell or Myranda Royce who've "been there".

Then we come to Petyr Baelish, and we see how Sansa's learned by then to better observe and remain guarded, to consider not only what she wants but the implications of what other people want from her. It's still a bit conflicted though, and you can see it - one the one hand, thinking "but he saved me" or "I must be his daughter, for loyalty to him and my survival versus those who threaten us", and on the other realizing Littlefinger never saves anybody for real, and defiently being a daughter of Winterfell, and carefully deflecting Lord Baelish's desires while telling him what he wants to hear.

The issue of this thread is Sansa as an "unreliable" narrator, because she sometimes has these mental inconsistencies. I'm saying it's because emotionally, she's had trouble directly confronting the facts. She is not a hardened realist, certainly not to start with. What Syrio Forel told Arya about the "true seeing" is a parallel within Arya's story: see not what you want to see or expect to see, but what is really there. Sansa is learning something similar, in her own way.

[Le Cygne]

Having many sibs myself I've had many, many such spats, fights and other conflicts with them growing up. I recognize them for what they are when GRRM writes them. They make me wince tho as many times as these types of conflicts really aren't pleasant can be very hurtful. They are however, as common in real life as they are common between Arya and Sansa.

Oh yeah, not laughing in the sense of ha ha ha (although I do love the way he writes Arya, she's so fierce), but in the sense, it was just so clear that's what he was trying to show, a spat, even Robert characterized it that way. Ned would have been wise to follow his lead there.

Also just a general point, he doesn't write Ned as infallible at all. He regretted what he did with Lady. He should have let her run away, and in that case, Arya had the right idea, with Nymeria. He was so determined to follow the rules, but that's no way to play this game.

And when she was done, Eddard Stark sat dazed beside the table, the dagger in his hand. Bran's wolf had saved the boy's life, he thought dully. What was it that Jon had said when they found the pups in the snow? Your children were meant to have these pups, my lord. And he had killed Sansa's, and for what? Was it guilt he was feeling? Or fear? If the gods had sent these wolves, what folly had he done?

[LongRider]

Oh yeah, not laughing in the sense of ha ha ha (although I do love the way he writes Arya, she's so fierce), but in the sense, it was just so clear that's what he was trying to show, a spat, even Robert characterized it that way. Ned would have been wise to follow his lead there.

Yes, the laugh of recognition! And GRRM writes these well. I wonder how many sibs he has? What contributes to their conflicts is that they are just so different from each other. LOL! They drive each other crazy.

[Red Wedding Cake]

It is during Sansa's POV that we learn that Joffrey attacked Micah, so she actually does tell us, to say Red Wedding cake is making 'shit up' is a tad rude!

Thank you, Woofless

Examples where she reacts in an avoidant manner?

Well, for a surprisingly long time she "pretends" Arya was to blame for the incident with Mycah, not Joffrey. That is one example of where she told herself a version of the truth that wasn't true. I think the issue there was no intellectual, but emotional - if Joffrey was the kind of boy she witnessed right there on that day, well that calls into question a lot of things which end up taking her to a negative emotional place.

In the riot, she knew enough to know she is in danger from an angry mob, that they meant her great harm, but her memories of course are all focused on her personal circumstances - not surprising because she is 12 so she is not going to see it as an adult such as Tyrion would. Wisdom comes from experience, but not right away.

With the framing of those who want her (Tyrion, Sandor) I thinks there is more to it than merely knowing that they want her - it's in being able to deal with it emotionally, as well as her own feelings on the matter. Remember, this is also Sansa who has such deeply ingrained "good girl" training. So what we see is of a very warped quality - Tyrion more monstrous than he is. Later (with some reflection) she is almost ready to defend him to her aunt Lysa when she has to catch herself again, and remember he was not really on her side.

Of course, one of the big ones is how her thoughts about Sandor tend to mutate. Sandor holding a knife to her throat, drunk, and menacing her because that's all he knows how to do, becomes Sandor kissing her romantically ... because emotionally that's what she wants it to have been. She's not wrong to think there's something more to their interactions than just what was plainly spoken, but this is some 12 year old maid, still fairly innocent. It does not come into her head the way it would for Arianne Martell or Myranda Royce who've "been there".

Then we come to Petyr Baelish, and we see how Sansa's learned by then to better observe and remain guarded, to consider not only what she wants but the implications of what other people want from her. It's still a bit conflicted though, and you can see it - one the one hand, thinking "but he saved me" or "I must be his daughter, for loyalty to him and my survival versus those who threaten us", and on the other realizing Littlefinger never saves anybody for real, and defiently being a daughter of Winterfell, and carefully deflecting Lord Baelish's desires while telling him what he wants to hear.

The issue of this thread is Sansa as an "unreliable" narrator, because she sometimes has these mental inconsistencies. I'm saying it's because emotionally, she's had trouble directly confronting the facts. She is not a hardened realist, certainly not to start with. What Syrio Forel told Arya about the "true seeing" is a parallel within Arya's story: see not what you want to see or expect to see, but what is really there. Sansa is learning something similar, in her own way.

Nicely said.

[Le Cygne]

The issue of this thread is Sansa as an "unreliable" narrator, because she sometimes has these mental inconsistencies. I'm saying it's because emotionally, she's had trouble directly confronting the facts.

It's not a "mental inconsistency" - it's called being human, to go through stages of understanding and acceptance, characters of all ages do this throughout the story. One doesn't always put words to things that are beyond words. And sometimes "words are wind."

For younger characters (and Arya and Sansa are good examples here), their lack of experience makes them unreliable narrators, but that also happens with older characters who are out of their depth for whatever reason, too.

Unreliable narrator means not telling the story reliably. We've seen many examples with various viewpoint characters at various times. There are many ways a narrator can be unreliable, and many reasons. But many characters have trouble "directly confronting the facts" in this story.

[Annara Snow]

Examples where she reacts in an avoidant manner?

.

How does she react in an "avoiant manner" in any of the examples I've mentioned?

Well, for a surprisingly long time she "pretends" Arya was to blame for the incident with Mycah, not Joffrey. That is one example of where she told herself a version of the truth that wasn't true. I think the issue there was no intellectual, but emotional - if Joffrey was the kind of boy she witnessed right there on that day, well that calls into question a lot of things which end up taking her to a negative emotional place.

And that was one of the two examples you mentioned that actually are examples of Sansa being in denial, and I acknowledged that. What about the others?

In the riot, she knew enough to know she is in danger from an angry mob, that they meant her great harm, but her memories of course are all focused on her personal circumstances - not surprising because she is 12 so she is not going to see it as an adult such as Tyrion would. Wisdom comes from experience, but not right away.

Of course her memories are focused on personal circumstances. She was almost raped and possibly killed. Tyrion was meanwhile safe. Tyrion is also supposed to think about the "big picture" since he is the freaking Hand of the King, one of the most senior members of the power structure in KL. It's his job and he has the power to, and should be, solving the problems of hungry citizens. Sansa has no power whatsoever (or the minimum, which she utilizes - she can make Joffrey give some money to the crazed woman with a dead baby instead of hurting her, which Sansa did) and what is she supposed to be, trying to influence the Lannisters to change their policy?

And throughout all of this, Tyrion's biggest concern was for Sansa not to be harmed - so Jaime would not be. He didn't get nearly as upset over, say, Lollys. Because, just like with every human, his "personal concerns" such as the love for his brother, outweigh everything else.

With the framing of those who want her (Tyrion, Sandor) I thinks there is more to it than merely knowing that they want her - it's in being able to deal with it emotionally, as well as her own feelings on the matter. Remember, this is also Sansa who has such deeply ingrained "good girl" training. So what we see is of a very warped quality - Tyrion more monstrous than he is. Later (with some reflection) she is almost ready to defend him to her aunt Lysa when she has to catch herself again, and remember he was not really on her side.

How does she see Tyrion "more monstrous than he is"? She sees him exactly the way he is - she sees that he's kinder than the rest of the Lannisters, but she still can't trust him - for good reasons, she pities him and sees that he's terrified of what he's planning to do, but she doesn't sexually desire him at all. She sees that he's "like a hungry child" - emotionally needy and wanting something from her that she can't give. He's only "monstrous" in that he's super-ugly and sexually repulsive to her. And that's not "warped" in any way - Tyrion is really that ugly, by everyone's account. Everyone thought he was grotesquely ugly even before BW, but even if he hadn't been, few people wouldn't look atrocious with their nose missing.

Of course, one of the big ones is how her thoughts about Sandor tend to mutate. Sandor holding a knife to her throat, drunk, and menacing her because that's all he knows how to do, becomes Sandor kissing her romantically ... because emotionally that's what she wants it to have been. She's not wrong to think there's something more to their interactions than just what was plainly spoken, but this is some 12 year old maid, still fairly innocent. It does not come into her head the way it would for Arianne Martell or Myranda Royce who've "been there".

She knows that he was holding the knife to her throat and that he was drunk and that he threatened to kill her. Her first UnKiss memory is: "He kissed me, and threatened to kill me, and made me sing him a song".

And what Sandor actually did - making her sing a song - was actually far more innocent and less sexual than what Sansa thinks happened (kissing her). Arianne and Myranda don't invite men to their rooms to sing songs to them or ask them to sing, don't you think so?