Sansa: The Unreliable Narrator

[Le Cygne]

This passage is suggestive, too (in addition to all the literary references throughout the series):

I wish the Hound were here. The night of the battle, Sandor Clegane had come to her chambers to take her from the city, but Sansa had refused. Sometimes she lay awake at night, wondering if she'd been wise. She had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks. She could not say why she'd kept it. The Hound had turned craven, she heard it said; at the height of the battle, he got so drunk the Imp had to take his men. But Sansa understood. She knew the secret of his burned face. It was only the fire he feared. That night, the wildfire had set the river itself ablaze, and filled the very air with green flame. Even in the castle, Sansa had been afraid. Outside... she could scarcely imagine it.

A cedar chest is a "hope chest," where a young woman keeps treasures to prepare for marriage. It's a very beautiful gesture she's making here. These are personal items both have worn, and his cloak is in quite a state, and even that is symbolic. The smoke from the fire, we see above, that played into things. The red on white, specifically his cloak, the cloak he wore when he protected her so many times, specifically blood, the tearing, then with the cloak around her, the passage with the bells... like the dagger, this is all sexual symbolism. And ultimately, the kiss she gives him. And she's dreamed a thousand times of marriage, wearing a tall strong man's cloak as he kisses her. Before, she noted his cloak felt coarse against her bare breasts, but no velvet felt so fine. This is more than a cloak, this represents him, and now she puts his cloak with her summer silks (and later, places him in her marriage bed). That's a dream of "a better day" (a dream of spring?), like the hymn she sang, which was her prayer for him, after he came to her from a ship called Prayer...

This is all from the text, by the way... This sounds romantic because it was written that way.

[ummester]

The thing is - and including Le Cygne's quote above - I would agree that Sansa views the Hound romantically - both in the budding sexuality and chivalrous type.

I don't think there is any evidence to show the Hound views Sansa in at all the same way - I think it is a one way romance. Beauty seeing the heart under the beast (for her own development) but the beast (Sandor in this case) not only being far less romantically inclined towards the beauty but also it being not in his best interests to get anywhere near the beauty.

Ultimately, i don't think there is anything different between Sansa pining for the Hound and Jorah pining for Dany - they are both kind of sad, misplaced love struck (or confused people) that want or fantasize over some-one unobtainable. For sure, Sansa's fantasy is more pure and less sexualized than Jorah's - but they are the same at a base level.

[Le Cygne]

Sandor is head over heels about Sansa. He sobbed about the pretty little bird while dying. It was him pulling her closer for a kiss and his dagger that turned Sansa on. He's the one who wanted the song one day that she said she'd sing gladly. And the Beast is the one who loves Beauty first, in every story. And he's playing this one straight, he's hit all the main beats of the story so far, heading into the penultimate book. Do you remember where the heart is? That's how you kill a man. That's what all of that was about. Heartbreak. It's very easy to make the case that Sandor loves Sansa.

Official app:

Riding with King Robert to Winterfell, Sandor first meets Sansa Stark and becomes infatuated with her.

[ummester]

Sandor is head over heels about Sansa. He sobbed about the pretty little bird while dying.

Official app:

He was infatuated with the idea of her - of saving the little bird, of trying to be chivalrous. He would have discovered something deeper and more important about himself burying the dead - self forgiveness. Forgiveness for the hatred he carried inside because of his brother.

[A Bastard Snow]

You know GRRM could be yanking everyone's chains.

He has said that Sansa's unreliable narration will eventually mean something. He has not specified the unkiss will eventually mean anything, claiming it definately will is as much speculation and as much fanfic as anything else.

Also note that GRRM said, specifically re the unkiss:

It could be very different things to each of those involved, mind you.

This suggests that Sandor feels differently than Sansa in her POV.

I would suggest that Sansa's unreliable narration eventually meaning something is not about the unkiss at all and more about something else - probably LF and the Eirie and probably to be revealed in Winds of Winter. The unkiss, like the Joffrey thing, is just there to establish character traits.

Yea that makes me think she has already changed an event (Lysa's death) or that she will in Winds.Lysa dying is the only event in which Sansa had the sole PoV (at least that I can recall) So we have no other person to give credit to her recollection of events.I just dont see LF killing Lysa cause it is such an impulsive act.LF would have cemented his power before he killed her

[Hrafntýr]

Yea that makes me think she has already changed an event (Lysa's death) or that she will in Winds.Lysa dying is the only event in which Sansa had the sole PoV (at least that I can recall) So we have no other person to give credit to her recollection of events.I just dont see LF killing Lysa cause it is such an impulsive act.LF would have cemented his power before he killed her

Again, GRRM's comments about unreliability concern recollection of past events, not unreliability in "real time" narration of events. With respect to your example, she could hypothetically come to remember the event of Lysa's death differently, but this wouldn't change the reality that we saw unfold in "real time" as it occurred.

I am aware that trauma can make people block out actual events from their memories. But I don't think that GRRM's statements that were quoted on the previous page give any inkling that this should cause us to question real-time narration, only that we should be attentive to the places where a pov character's subsequent memories don't match with what they initially observed at the time of events.

[Red Wedding Cake]

Also something to note, this "fan report" does not apply to the "unkiss" because that book (ASOS) hadn't come out yet.

The SSM's are fan reported, and you're right it is important to keep that in mind before parsing the text and scrutinizing the syntax. I think the book you mean here is AFFC, which came out in 2005. ASOS came out in 2000, with the SSM's from 2001 and 2002. I believe the first mentions of the unkiss happen towards the end of ASOS and continue in AFFC.

When she pretends to kiss him in her last chapter (AFFC), this is after thinking so highly of him so often, wanting him there, hoping he was there to rescue her, remembering him positively, etc., and it sounds like it's from a romance (complete with Dany's cruel kiss fantasy of Daario, he also worded the rescue like Cersei's fantasy of Rhaegar, lots of clues like this)... Wherefore art thou, Hound... Come night, come Hound...

Is this the last Sansa chapter or the last Alayne chapter in AFFC? There isn't really an unkiss reference in the last Alayne chapter. Myranda Royce asks her if she knows what happens in a marriage bed, and she thinks of Tyrion and the Hound. She does remember that the Hound threatened to kill her, so it's not all positive, but in SOS she does think it's the Hound and not Lothor Brune who is saving her from Marillion.

Really though, this is interesting. She has the quite notable false memory of kissing Sandor... now this? Maybe she really couldn't remember what happened between Joff and Arya.

Double boom.

Sansa maintains that Mycah was the culprit and that it was Mycah who attacked Joffrey. Mycah clearly did not attack Joffrey, and we have that through Sansa's first POV chapter.

Real time unreliable narration in ASoIaF usually happens with incomplete information from the POV character or artistic flourish from the author, usually during chaotic or tense moments. Robb's death:

A man in dark armor and a pale pink cloak spotted with blood stepped up to Robb. "Jaime Lannister sends his regards." He thrust his longsword through her son's heart and twisted.

Catelyn's death:

Ten fierce ravens were raking her face with sharp talons(...) Slow red worms crawled along her arms and under her clothes.

We know the man in dark armor and pink cloak is Roose Bolton, and Catelyn normally would identify him as Roose Bolton, but the speed and chaos of the situation makes his description more vague. There are also artful metaphors that distort the reality of the situation. We know there aren't really worms and ravens there, it's just what it feels like to her at that time. Other times information is hidden because it's ignored by the POV character.

The only time the door opened was late that night, when they thrust Jeyne Pool inside, bruised and shaking. "They're killing everyone," the steward's daughter had shrieked at her. She went on and on. The Hound had broken down her door with a warhammer, she said. There were bodies on the stair at the Tower of the Hand, and the steps were slick with blood.

Who knows what Jeyne actually said as "she went on and on"? What was Jeyne saying as she was crying about her father? Who killed who? What did the Hound do after he broke down Jeyne's door with a warhammer? Whose bodies were on the stair at the Tower of the Hand? We don't know what Jeyne was saying, and we can't know if it was Jeyne being hysterical or Sansa ignoring important information.

I have noted no one who thinks the story is romantic mentioning the ending of the story on this thread. I do think consummation is heavily suggested in the text, repeated references to the double meaning of the song, the bloody cloak, the marriage bed, and much more. By romance, I am referring to classic romances, like Beauty and the Beast. He's very clearly telling a Beauty and the Beast story for Sansa and the Hound, we've noted the support for that, including lines from the fairytale in the text, author commentary confirming this, etc.

I don't think Beauty and the Beast is a bad comparison, but if we're going to speculate on literary inspirations why stop there? Why not The Phantom of the Opera and Gone with the Wind? Why not use Martin's time on The Twighlight Zone in addition to his time on Beauty and the Beast? In the end literary comparisons are great illustrations but the text of the story in front of us is the actual story told.

[Le Cygne]

The fan report about the fans debating is from 1999, before ASOS was published.

The unkiss is mentioned explicitly three times, first in ASOS, then twice in Sansa's last chapter in AFFC.

ASOS, the other girls are playing a kissing game, and she thinks this:

Megga couldn't sing, but she was mad to be kissed. She and Alla played a kissing game sometimes, she confessed, but it wasn't the same as kissing a man, much less a king. Sansa wondered what Megga would think about kissing the Hound, as she had.

AFFC, twice in her last chapter, first, when she's playing a kissing game with Sweetrobin:

If I close my eyes I can pretend he is the Knight of Flowers....

As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

And then when she places him in the marriage bed (earlier, she dreamed he was in bed with her on her wedding night):

"You do know what goes on in a marriage bed, I hope?"

She thought of Tyrion, and of the Hound and how he'd kissed her, and gave a nod.

[Red Wedding Cake]

Maybe we're referencing different SSM's or I'm missing the actual dates they happened. The two SSM's I referenced from the wiki were here and here.

You're right about the two unkiss references, it is the last Alayne chapter.

[Le Cygne]

That's another interesting contrast, it's hinted that Sandor saved Jeyne Poole... Threw a wrench in Cersei's plans, but Littlefinger stepped in...

The actual story told for Sansa and the Hound is a Beauty and the Beast story... Hence the lines from the fairytale, the author's commentary, etc.

[Red Wedding Cake]

That's another interesting contrast, it's hinted that Sandor saved Jeyne Poole... Threw a wrench in Cersei's plans, but Littlefinger stepped in...

I wouldn't say Sandor saved Jeyne Poole. Sandor was leading the force to kill everyone in the Tower of the Hand and Jeyne was thrown in the dungeon tower beaten and bruised. Sansa is still trying to convince herself the Lannisters are good so she can go to the Queen to convince her to let her stay in King's Landing, and Sansa is actively trying to block Jeyne out of her consciousness, assumably because she's saying things Sansa doesn't want to hear.

The actual story told for Sansa and the Hound is a Beauty and the Beast story... Hence the lines from the fairytale, the author's commentary, etc.

Martin admits to all sorts of literary inspirations. A lot of sci-fi, a lot of fantasy. What was Aragorn's tax policy after The Lord of the Rings? Tad Williams' A Dragonbone Chair was one of Martin's inspirations for A Game of Thrones. The Lannisters and the Starks are like the Lancasters and the Yorks in the War of the Roses. Bloody conflicts over succession disputes throughout European history. The Great Gatsby is one of Martin's favorite books. Gone with the Wind is repeatedly referenced as the show and books being separate but equal. How many children did Scarlett O'Hara have, anyway?

So it's not just a one-to-one correlation when Martin uses Beauty and the Beast imagery between Sansa and Sandor. Even with romantic undertones, it's debatable that that's where the characters are or are going. What makes Sandor more Beast than Phantom?

"Sing, my angel of Music! Sing for me!"

"Sing, little bird. Sing for your little life."

What makes Sansa more Belle than Scarlett?

“Sir,"she said,"you are no gentleman!"

"You are no true knight, Ser Meryn."

Not to mention the differences between Sansa/Sandor and the classical versions of Beauty and the Beast. I can't think of a version where the Beast kills children and Belle ignores that for love. Belle doesn't fabricate memories of the Beast to make her love him more. In some versions it's Belle's father who promises her to the Beast so he could get presents for his daughters, including a rose for Belle. What we have in ASoIaF is a blossoming young girl who calms the rage in a violent ugly man, which is championed by Beauty and the Beast, but it's not unique to it and it has had plenty of cautionary tales to go along with the romances as far as references go.

[Mad Madam Mim]

Oh no I have missed such a great debate! Damn job

That's interesting - it might make me more interested in her as a character also, because at least she would have done something.

What if, if Sansa is such an unreliable narrator, Sandor did do something like sexually assault her on that night and we are reading the unreliable narration of a repressed memory trying to escape?

I don;t think so. This is a great summery:

@Red Wedding Cake: Thank you for providing info from the SSMs.

@ummester: Perhaps it makes sense to look at the entire SSM. Consider this statement:

The Lion's Paw / Lion's Tooth business, on the other hand, is intentional. A small touch of the unreliable narrator. I was trying to establish that the memories of my viewpoint characters are not infallible. Sansa is simply remembering it wrong. A very minor thing (you are the only one to catch it to date), but it was meant to set the stage for a much more important lapse in memory. You will see, in A STORM OF SWORDS and later volumes, that Sansa remembers the Hound kissing her the night he came to her bedroom... but if you look at the scene, he never does. That will eventually mean something, but just now it's a subtle touch, something most of the readers may not even pick up on. 1

Here, GRRM indicates that he wants readers to see that the memories of any pov character are not infallible. And then he says that Sansa is remembering this incident incorrectly. This is something different from mistrusting the description of events as they unfold in a character's present, though of course we should always be aware that different individuals will perceive and experience events differently. But I read this statement as being about memory.

In my opinion, GRRM's statement is ambiguous about what, exactly, is going to be significant. Is the "Lion's Tooth/Lion's Paw" issue the set up for the unkiss, which is the much more significant thing? I lean toward this interpretation of the SSM since he elaborates the unkiss as the subsequent event to the sword-name issue, though I do recognize that it is at least possible that it is referring to some other subsequent lapse in memory that we have yet to see. However, and this is important, GRRM explicitly states that he cares about the more general principle of the unreliability of memory for any pov, not Sansa in particular, so it could just as well refer to some other character's lapse in memory. He doesn't, though, indicate we should mistrust "real time" narration.

Finally, that quote "It could be very different things to each of those involved" is also unclear in its referent; is he talking about Sansa and Sandor, or is he talking about the two different sides in the debate over the meaning of the unkiss, those who see it as romantic and those who see it as platonic?

I agree! And you have written this better than I ever could! The issue is with Sansa's recollection of the event, not with the event itself. There was only one other person present at the time the 'unkiss' allegedly took place and that was Sandor. We do not have the benefit of his POV, but this is what he does say on the matter:

"And she sang for me. You didn’t know that, did you? Your sister sang me a sweet little song.”

"You ought to sing me a pretty little song, the way your sister did.”

"And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf."

Sandor does not say anything that contradicts Sansa's original description of the event and seems to corroborate that a song took place (but no kiss). Sandor never mentions a kiss which is interesting as Sandor is very boastful of the song and he brings it up several times as a way to wind up Ayra. If a kiss had taken place, surely this would be far more juicy ammo? This is especially notable in his speech as he is dying. He is trying to goad Ayra into giving him the gift of mercy, again, he mentions the song (which he had to steal), but does not mention a kiss (or anything else) taking place. Most significantly, he says he should have fucked her bloody. The key word here is should. There is no did.

[Mad Madam Mim]

So what, ASoIaF will resolve 'Where do whores go?' Even though I know it's through the Hodor :D

Sometimes things are just repeated to get you in the mindset of a character - like Jamie thinking about Cersie shagging everyone else, which made Jamie feel positively pathetic.

hehe that made my chuckle

True enough Hrafntýr - though ultimately what GRRM is doing is being as obscure as some of his POV text, he is creating a need for interpretation and thus prolonging discussion over the text and character motives. He can resolve it all in a variety of ways that will make sense inline with both the text and his comments.

My point is that some yet to be resolved romantic subplot between Sansa and Sandor is as much interpretive fanfic as the suggestion that Sansa may have interpreted LF kissing her incorrectly.

GRRM is a crafty bugger, but at least it gives us something to do while waiting for the next book. I subscribe to 'SanSan' as a theory ie. there is symbolism,(the overused word) foreshadowing and small hints and clues in the text that suggests there is a chemistry between these characters which is likely to play out in the future. I feel this is different to 'shipping' characters (or 'fanfiction'). I think the term sansan' can tar some of us with a fanfiction brush. If you put forward the case for Sansa incorrectly interpreting LF's kissing based on textual clues, will happily debate it. Although I can't say I have read anything so far to suggest this could be the case.

The thing is - and including Le Cygne's quote above - I would agree that Sansa views the Hound romantically - both in the budding sexuality and chivalrous type.

I don't think there is any evidence to show the Hound views Sansa in at all the same way - I think it is a one way romance. Beauty seeing the heart under the beast (for her own development) but the beast (Sandor in this case) not only being far less romantically inclined towards the beauty but also it being not in his best interests to get anywhere near the beauty.

Ultimately, i don't think there is anything different between Sansa pining for the Hound and Jorah pining for Dany - they are both kind of sad, misplaced love struck (or confused people) that want or fantasize over some-one unobtainable. For sure, Sansa's fantasy is more pure and less sexualized than Jorah's - but they are the same at a base level.

There is so much!

"i could keep you safe," he rasped. "They're all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I'd kill them."

This line epitomises Sandor's feelings. He says this line after coming out of the Blackwater; he is drunk, scared, angry, emotional and vulnerable. He has just deserted his king but waits to see his little bird. Sansa is his master now. Sandor measures his worth in his ability to kill people. By offering this is Sansa, he is basically offering her everything he has to give.

A lot of it can be missed with a quick reading so I would suggest reading Sandor's interactions very closely and pay attention to his behaviour as well as his speech because it can be very revealing. This is also very apparent in his interactions with Arya (even though Sansa is long gone!)

[Le Cygne]

This line epitomises Sandor's feelings. He says this line after coming out of the Blackwater; he is drunk, scared, angry, emotional and vulnerable. He has just deserted his king but waits to see his little bird. Sansa is his master now. Sandor measures his worth in his ability to kill people. By offering this is Sansa, he is basically offering her everything he has to give.

Love everything you said. This is one of the best "I love you" lines, this is also why these books take forever to write, he puts so much meaning into every line.

"I could keep you safe," he rasped. "They're all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I'd kill them."

That's the story of his life. He's the one no one kept safe. They are afraid of him, so they won't hurt him again.

When he rescued her from the mob, finally he could kill the ones who hurt her. He stayed for her, but he broke with the Lannisters over what they did to Sansa long before that night.

He is a dog, just as he says. A half-wild, mean-tempered dog that bites any hand that tries to pet him, and yet will savage any man who tries to hurt his masters.

This one is great, too. She's his master, she just doesn't know it yet, And she wants to pet him! And she does, later, she cups his cheek.

[LongRider]

Lets, see, Phantom of the Opera, Eric hides in the interior and caverns under the Opera House. and kidnaps his love interest away from her lover. Threatens all of the them, is chased by the opera folk and townsfolk, dies. (1925 silent film w/Lon Chaney*)

Sandor hides in the secret tunnels and dungeons of the Red Keep, kidnaps Sansa away from her lover and runs off with her. Oh wait, he lives in the world like everybody else and doesn't hide his face. He offers to take her away but she declines and stays put. Also, she didn't have a lover. B&B =/= PoTO

Lets try GWTW then. Scarlett is a popular young woman who has her pick of beaus, except for ole what's his name who loves his cousin. She meets an exciting older man who is smitten with her but she can't see the forest for the trees and decides ole what's his name is really her dreamboat. He marries his cousin, so she marries someone else, who quickly dies in battle so she marries her sister's beau who dies as well. That's when the exciting older man makes his move and they marry and have a happy life until what's his ole what's his name comes back in the picture and she screws everything up. Exciting older man leaves her, she realizes that he's the one SHE REALLY LOVED ALL ALONG!!

Hmmm, Unlike Scarlett, Sansa is betrothed to the one her father's friend suggested to her father and because the friend was the king it happened. Later, after her ex-betrothed put her aside she is forced to marry someone she does not want to marry at all. Just like Scarlett, she was able to pick her husbands. Oh, wait, that's not what happened. They were picked for her. In the meantime, she developing feelings for an older man who protects and helps her in her life as a captive. This all JUST LIKE GWTW except everything about it. B&B =/= GWTW.

Beauty and the Beast. The beast falls in love with Belle and little by little she sees the beauty hidden by his ugly form and falls in love with him. They're parted for awhile and then get back together.

This outline not only describes Sandor and Sansa but Jaime and Brienne. Is it an exact match? No, of course not. Was GRRM influenced by PoTO and GWTW? Very possibly but those are not the stories he's telling. It's a variation of the Beauty and the Beast. And for the two couples, they both have great storylines.

Can't wait to read more.

*The 1925 PoTO is really a great film! Lon Chaney is so damn good in this film. It's on blu ray now too.

Edit: Scarlett did say “Sir,"she said,"you are no gentleman!" to Rhett and then later married him. Hmmmm..........

[LongRider]

~~~~snip~~~

This line epitomises Sandor's feelings. He says this line after coming out of the Blackwater; he is drunk, scared, angry, emotional and vulnerable. He has just deserted his king but waits to see his little bird. Sansa is his master now. Sandor measures his worth in his ability to kill people. By offering this is Sansa, he is basically offering her everything he has to give.

~~~snip~~~

Well said! And he pines for his master all through the Riverlands and is devastated after the RW. Continues to care her sister too.

[Le Cygne]

Scarlett did say "Sir,"she said,"you are no gentleman!" to Rhett and then later married him. Hmmmm..........

Ha ha ha. It's the same thing as before, no context, and missing the story. Nice turnabout there. :)

He's done a beautiful job with SanSan and JaimeBri, very detailed BatB stories, he has thought of everything.

[ummester]

There is so much!

This line epitomises Sandor's feelings. He says this line after coming out of the Blackwater; he is drunk, scared, angry, emotional and vulnerable. He has just deserted his king but waits to see his little bird. Sansa is his master now. Sandor measures his worth in his ability to kill people. By offering this is Sansa, he is basically offering her everything he has to give.

A lot of it can be missed with a quick reading so I would suggest reading Sandor's interactions very closely and pay attention to his behaviour as well as his speech because it can be very revealing. This is also very apparent in his interactions with Arya (even though Sansa is long gone!)

Yes but since then Sandor has changed - the way the priests described the Gravedigger he seemed delicate because of his hatred for his brother and it would take time and peace away from the world to set him fully right. How can this possibly involve Sansa unless she wants to hang around graves as Sandor goes about his new work?

Sandor moved on - it seems like Sansa and some of her fans don't want to let him go :D

[Le Cygne]

Stranger wants to get the hell out of Dodge. As Stranger goes, so does Sandor. That's the point of the horsey stories.

They tried to "cut and polish" Stranger into Driftwood, and nothing doing. He's one fierce MF...

[Mad Madam Mim]

Yes but since then Sandor has changed - the way the priests described the Gravedigger he seemed delicate because of his hatred for his brother and it would take time and peace away from the world to set him fully right. How can this possibly involve Sansa unless she wants to hang around graves as Sandor goes about his new work?

Sandor moved on - it seems like Sansa and some of her fans don't want to let him go :D

Stranger wants to get the hell out of Dodge. As Stranger goes, so does Sandor. That's the point of the horsey stories.

They tried to "cut and polish" Stranger into Driftwood, and nothing doing. He's one fierce MF...

Yup! The Gravedigger also flings dirt at Brienne's feet. The ole' Sandor is still in there!

The wording the EB uses is "he is at rest." He does not say Sandor has 'moved on'. Brienne also offers a vague description of a highborn maiden and the EB immediately says "Sansa Stark." He made that connection very quickly, which suggests somebody had been blabbing about Sansa....

And finally, a throw away comment form Meribald, make of it what you will, "Dog barked. "You see? Even Dog was bored."