Sansa: The Unreliable Narrator

[Red Wedding Cake]

Yeah, I asked the same thing. Arya actually says "the gold cloaks", plural, pushed Ned - she didn't really care which one(s). None of the other testimonies (Arya's real time one, and Cersei's, Varys' and Janos' accounts of the event) contradict Sansa's account. So why would anyone question it, other than some people's wish to question anything Sansa thinks, due to a gross misinterpretation of the term "unreliable narrator" that GRRM once used to explain Sansa's memory of UnKiss?

It's not unreasonable to look for other lapses in memory from Sansa's perspective. Sansa's first chapter shows us Joffrey attacking Mycah at the Trident, then she tells us it was Mycah attacking Joffrey, and she's only become more unreliable as a narrator with the unkiss.

[Dicer]

Sansa's first chapter shows us Joffrey attacking Mycah at the Trident, then she tells us it was Mycah attacking Joffrey

That's not her being an unreliable narrator. That's her lying for her sweet prince Joffrey to curry favor with the Lannisters.

[Red Wedding Cake]

That's not her being an unreliable narrator. That's her lying for her sweet prince Joffrey to curry favor with the Lannisters.

Sansa did try to win favor with the Lannisters in her own ways, but this was with her family at breakfast. She wouldn't have been so insensitive towards her sister if she didn't honestly believe the "butcher's boy" deserved it. Would she?

[Woman of War]

It's not unreasonable to look for other lapses in memory from Sansa's perspective. Sansa's first chapter shows us Joffrey attacking Mycah at the Trident, then she tells us it was Mycah attacking Joffrey, and she's only become more unreliable as a narrator with the unkiss.

Sansa is actually a very resilient character, a character who is able to get relatively undamaged through the most horrible events.

Now everyday psychology tends to interpret resilient people as the heroes, those who resist torture and abuse, Hitler, Stalin, flood and draught. The survivors, the winners in the competition of survival. And finally the good guys because they are still there in the end to tell their story.

But resilience has many strategies. And one of the most important strategies is to bend where others break, to swim with the tide, to keep your mouth shut whe others speak up. Sansa has learned to adopt that strategy for survival since speaking up would have been suicidal. Being the talking bird went along with her education, she knows how to please. A helpful lesson here.

But Sansa is able to do more: the whole unreliable narrator thing is a very effective strategy to keep her mind resilient. She reinterpretes reality the way that she can bear it, the way that things are not too much for a child who believes in a world governed by hierarchial order: the commonfolk boy attacked the prince, so he made the mistake. When the Hound saved her from the raging Kingslanders they were unreasonable and did not listen, not revengeful and cruel towards the nobility brat. After all she herself did not do anything to them, the idea that her mere existence was an insult to them did not reach her any more than any other entitled noble. And Sandor wanted to kiss her and was attracted to her, after all every man around her was, they all were staring at her tits. The potential rape was too hard to imagine so she reinterpreted the situation into a harmless kiss, something other girls talked about. I guess Sansa had no idea what rape truly really physically meant.

No, resilient people are not automatically the morally better ones, they can be insensitive, arrogant, entitled, selfish, manipulative, slimy. Just as much as intelligent, charismatic, cunning, compassionate and inspiring. Surviving may be admirable but it is not a a moral achievement.

Resilience is the ability to apply the strategies for survival while staying relatively intact yourself and going on with your life. Too much sensitivity, clearsightedness and social conscience can be counterproductive here.

So Sansa's ability to reinterpret reality for her own protection may help her to survive but it may as well lead her into morally very ambiguous decisions.

[mormont]

That's not her being an unreliable narrator. That's her lying for her sweet prince Joffrey to curry favor with the Lannisters.

No, it isn't. When Sansa's asked to testify in front of the court, she says she can't remember what happened. It's only later, in private, with only Arya and Ned there, that she says Mycah attacked Joffrey.

[Dicer]

Sansa did try to win favor with the Lannisters in her own ways, but this was with her family at breakfast. She wouldn't have been so insensitive towards her sister if she didn't honestly believe the "butcher's boy" deserved it.

Again, I don't think that this is proof of her being unreliable. Sansa blamed Mycah for what Joffrey did to him because Mycah was just a butcher's boy of no importance to her. She did not care for him or his well being and Mycah being there ruined the whole day for her.

Arya swung at the prince again, but this time Joffrey caught the blow on Lion's Tooth and sent her broken stick flying from her hands. The back of his head was all bloody and his eyes were on fire. Sansa was shrieking, "No, no, stop it, stop it, both of you, you're spoiling it,"

After they had gone, Sansa went to Prince Joffrey. His eyes were closed in pain, his breath ragged. Sansa knelt beside him. "Joffrey," she sobbed. "Oh, look what they did, look what they did. My poor prince. Don't be afraid. I'll ride to the holdfast and bring help for you." Tenderly she reached out and brushed back his soft blond hair.

She feels more for Joffrey, then for Mycah or Arya. This indicates her way of thinking rather than making her an unreliable narrator.

Sansa shrugs off Mycah's death as inconsequential. She does not spare him any thought unlike Arya. And Arya stepping in to defend Mycah made things worse. And Sansa has no issues being insensitive to Arya. They were not close as siblings. She really does blame them for what happened despite Joffrey's actions because that's the way most nobility think. The small folk are always to blame.

When Prince Joffrey seated himself to her right, she felt her throat tighten. He had not spoken a word to her since the awful thing had happened, and she had not dared to speak to him. At first she thought she hated him for what they'd done to Lady, but after Sansa had wept her eyes dry, she told herself that it had not been Joffrey's doing, not truly. The queen had done it; she was the one to hate, her and Arya. Nothing bad would have happened except for Arya.

She could not hate Joffrey tonight. He was too beautiful to hate.

This does not make her an unreliable narrator. Just a snobby brat who did not think much of the small folk and was infatuated with Joffrey.

So when she says Mycah deserves it, he deserved it for just being there and playing with Arya. She knows who is actually to blame. It's just that he was too beautiful to hate.

No, it isn't. When Sansa's asked to testify in front of the court, she says she can't remember what happened.

But she remembers because she told Ned what happened and we saw what happened in her own POV. Which is why she was lying when she says she can't remember. That's precisely why Ned calls her to testify because both Arya and Joffrey had told their versions while Sansa was not in the room. Arya had not had the chance to see Sansa. Sansa corroborating the story would prove Arya's version right.

[mormont]

But she remembers because she told Ned what happened and we saw what happened in her own POV. Which is why she was lying when she says she can't remember.

However, she does not say that Mycah attacked Joffrey, to curry favour with the Lannisters or for any other reason.

She does say she can't remember, but she's clearly in distress and under duress at the time: she doesn't tell the truth, but she doesn't say what Joffrey and Cersei want her to say either. It's clearly a desperate attempt to opt out of a situation she finds unbearable.

What's interesting is that later, when it doesn't matter any more, she seems to have convinced herself that Joff's version is true. That tells us much more about why Sansa might be an 'unreliable narrator'.

[Dicer]

However, she does not say that Mycah attacked Joffrey, to curry favour with the Lannisters or for any other reason.

How do you know this?

The fact is that she lies. She remembers what happened because she told Ned and after listening to Arya's version, Ned realizes that Sansa could be a witness.

She does say she can't remember, but she's clearly in distress and under duress at the time: she doesn't tell the truth, but she doesn't say what Joffrey and Cersei want her to say either.

Again, you could impute her motives for lying and come up with other reasons. These are your opinions based on your interpretation of that scene. On the other hand, it's clear to me that she did not want to tell the truth as she knows it because she does not want to make the Lannisters angry. Joffrey and Cersei wanted the King to punish Arya based on Joffrey's story. Arya was the one on trial. Arya was the one on the defensive, not Joffrey. Telling the truth would have helped Arya. It was imperative to tell the truth to save her sister from a lie on Joffrey's part.

It's clearly a desperate attempt to opt out of a situation she finds unbearable.

Yes, the situation was unbearable to her because telling the truth would have made Joffrey more angry with her than he already was and she did not want that.

By refusing to tell the truth she was, clearly, siding with Joffrey in this case.

Why was she siding with Joffrey?

1) She was infatuated with Joffrey and his beauty

2) she desperately wanted to be Queen

These two points are facts. Hence it stands to reason that she lied to curry favor with both Joffrey and the Queen both of whom had it in their power for her to be Queen. She chose to side with the Lannisters over her own family, because telling the truth would have put obstacles in her goal to become Queen.

What's interesting is that later, when it doesn't matter any more, she seems to have convinced herself that Joff's version is true. That tells us much more about why Sansa might be an 'unreliable narrator'.

When does she think that Joff's version is true? Do we see a POV version from her where she thinks that Mycah hit Joffrey? Or where she thinks that Nymeria wildly attacked Joffrey rather than to protect Arya? Because that's Joffrey's version. We never see Sansa think that Mycah attacked Joffrey or that Nymeria is a wild direwolf who attacked randomly.

There is a difference in Sansa blaming Mycah for what happened and Sansa thinking Mycah attacked Joffrey. If it was the latter, then yes, Sansa is an unreliable narrator. But if she is just blaming Mycah for the whole thing than that is different. That's not being an unreliable narrator, that is just her skewed way of thinking.

It's funny how all of Sansa's actions are blamed on her being an unreliable narrator, her being innocent and naive, her having amnesia etc. Can we credit any action to her in the series where she is aware and thinking and knows what she is doing? Or is she just a psychologically challenged idiot who has no idea what she is doing half the time because her mind is playing tricks on her?

[mormont]

How do you know this?

I read the scene.

[AliceRose]

Sansa remember perfectly what happened at the trident, in AGOT she chose to lie consciously to support her prince's version, but later she tells the TRUTH to the Tyrells.

ASOS 6 SANSA

“Now, child, the truth. What sort of man is this Joffrey, who calls himself Baratheon but looks so very Lannister?”

“AND DOWN THE ROAD FROM HERE TO THERE. FROM HERE! TO THERE! THREE BOYS, A GOAT, AND A DANCING BEAR!”

Sansa felt as though her heart had lodged in her throat. The Queen of Thorns was so close she could smell the old woman’s sour breath. Her gaunt thin fingers were pinching her wrist. To her other side, Margaery was listening as well. A shiver went through her. “A monster,” she whispered, so tremulously she could scarcely hear her own voice. “Joffrey is a monster. He lied about the butcher’s boy and made Father kill my wolf. When I displease him, he has the Kingsguard beat me. He’s evil and cruel, my lady, it’s so. And the queen as well.”

[Annara Snow]

It's not unreasonable to look for make up other lapses in memory from Sansa's perspective.

Fixed that for you.

This very thread and your argument is an exercise in lapse of logic.

[Darksnider05]

Fixed that for you.

This very thread and your argument is an exercise in lapse of logic.

So your against facts and logic got ya. Quotes from the actual text in context meaningless to you.

[Annara Snow]

So your against facts and logic got ya. Quotes from the actual text in context meaningless to you.

Huh?

Are you directing your post at the wrong person? Rather than RedWeddingCake, or the OP...? In case you haven't noticed, I'm the one who posted actual quotes from the text that show that there is absolutely nothing that contradicts Sansa's account that Janos Slynt threw Ned down, while the OP is going against facts and logic and making up an instance of Sansa supposedly misremembering what happened when Ned was executed, without offering any evidence (not quotes, nothing, just "I was rereading and I noticed...", supposedly...), based on... well, nothing, other than their wish to see Sansa as "unreliable" in every possible instance, and going by the logic: "Well, since nothing proves without any doubt that Sansa's account was 100% accurate, we should conclude it was not!"

That's lapse in logic.

And these are quotes from the actual text (as already posted by me on page 8) which are apparently irrelevant to you and a few other people here:

Where are you getting that from? Who says that it wasn't Janos Slynt who threw Ned down? What is the source of that information?

This is the only real time account of Ned's execution - in Arya's POV:

A long line of gold-cloaked spearmen held back the crowd, commanded by a stout man in elaborate armor, all black lacquer and gold filigree. His cloak had the metallic shimmer of true cloth-of-gold.

A thousand voices were screaming, but Arya never heard them. Prince Joffrey… no, King Joffrey… stepped out from behind the shields of his Kingsguard. “My mother bids me let Lord Eddard take the black, and Lady Sansa has begged mercy for her father.” He looked straight at Sansa then, and smiled, and for a moment Arya thought that the gods had heard her prayer, until Joffrey turned back to the crowd and said, “But they have the soft hearts of women. So long as I am your king, treason shall never go unpunished. Ser Ilyn, bring me his head!”

The crowd roared, and Arya felt the statue of Baelor rock as they surged against it. The High Septon clutched at the king’s cape, and Varys came rushing over waving his arms, and even the queen was saying something to him, but Joffrey shook his head. Lords and knights moved aside as he stepped through, tall and fleshless, a skeleton in iron mail, the King’s Justice. Dimly, as if from far off, Arya heard her sister scream. Sansa had fallen to her knees, sobbing hysterically. Ser Ilyn Payne climbed the steps of the pulpit.

Arya wriggled between Baelor’s feet and threw herself into the crowd, drawing Needle. She landed on a man in a butcher’s apron, knocking him to the ground. Immediately someone slammed into her back and she almost went down herself. Bodies closed in around her, stumbling and pushing, trampling on the poor butcher. Arya slashed at them with Needle.

High atop the pulpit, Ser Ilyn Payne gestured and the knight in black-and-gold gave a command. The gold cloaks flung Lord Eddard to the marble, with his head and chest out over the edge.

And at this point, Yoren grabs Arya and doesn't allow her to see anything more.

That's it. Arya just saw that the Gold Clocks threw him down. She didn't note whether their commander, whose name she didn't know, was one of those who threw him down. Why would she? They're all the same to her. But there's absolutely nothing to suggest that Janos Slynt did not throw Ned down.

Accounts by people present, after the fact:

Sansa:

Frog-faced Lord Slynt sat at the end of the council table wearing a black velvet doublet and a shiny cloth-of-gold cape, nodding with approval every time the king pronounced a sentence. Sansa stared hard at his ugly face, remembering how he had thrown down her father for Ser Ilyn to behead, wishing she could hurt him, wishing that some hero would throw him down and cut off his head. But a voice inside her whispered, There are no heroes, and she remembered what Lord Petyr had said to her, here in this very hall. “Life is not a song, sweetling,” he’d told her. “You may learn that one day to your sorrow.” In life, the monsters win, she told herself, and now it was the Hound’s voice she heard, a cold rasp, metal on stone. “Save yourself some pain, girl, and give him what he wants.”

(Sansa VI, AGOT)

I hope he falls and shames himself, she thought bitterly. I hope Ser Balon kills him. When Joffrey proclaimed her father’s death, it had been Janos Slynt who seized Lord Eddard’s severed head by the hair and raised it on high for king and crowd to behold, while Sansa wept and screamed.

(Sansa I, ACOK)

Cersei, in Tyrion's POV:

The queen grimaced. “He was instructed to pardon Stark, to allow him to take the black. The man would have been out of our way forever, and we might have made peace with that son of his, but Joff took it upon himself to give the mob a better show. What was I to do? He called for Lord Eddard’s head in front of half the city. And Janos Slynt and Ser Ilyn went ahead blithely and shortened the man without a word from me!” Her hand tightened into a fist. “The High Septon claims we profaned Baelor’s Sept with blood, after lying to him about our intent.”

Janos Slynt himself, in Tyrion's POV:

“One would think,” Tyrion said, “but life does take queer turns. Consider Eddard Stark, my lord. I don’t suppose he ever imagined his life would end on the steps of Baelor’s Sept.”

“There were damn few as did,” Lord Janos allowed, chuckling.

Tyrion chuckled too. “A pity I wasn’t here to see it. They say even Varys was surprised.”

Lord Janos laughed so hard his gut shook. “The Spider,” he said. “Knows everything, they say. Well, he didn’t know that.”

“How could he?” Tyrion put the first hint of a chill in his tone. “He had helped persuade my sister that Stark should be pardoned, on the condition that he take the black.”

“Eh?” Janos Slynt blinked vaguely at Tyrion.

“My sister Cersei,” Tyrion repeated, a shade more strongly, in case the fool had some doubt who he meant. “The Queen Regent.”

“Yes.” Slynt took a swallow. “As to that, well... the king commanded it, m’lord. The king himself.”

“The king is thirteen,” Tyrion reminded him.

“Still. He is the king.” Slynt’s jowls quivered when he frowned. “The Lord of the Seven Kingdoms.”

Varys, in Tyrion's POV:

Sighing, Tyrion started to reach for the wine again, then remembered Lord Janos and pushed the flagon away. “It does seem my sister was telling the truth about Stark’s death. We have my nephew to thank for that madness.”

“King Joffrey gave the command. Janos Slynt and Ser Ilyn Payne carried it out, swiftly, without hesitation...”

“... almost as if they had expected it. Yes, we have been over this ground before, without profit. A folly.”

“With the City Watch in hand, my lord, you are well placed to see to it that His Grace commits no further... follies? To be sure, there is still the queen’s household guard to consider...”

So, that's the info we have. One account after the fact (Sansa) that says Janos Slynt threw Ned down and later held his head for the crowd to see, and four other accounts (one real time, three after the fact) that don't contradict that.

So, where are you getting the idea that Sansa was wrong?

Seems to me like you're just making stuff up because you're in love with the idea of Sansa being an "unrealiable narrator" and misremembering all sorts of things.

Sansa is no more unrealiable than any other narrator in ASOAIF. The UnKiss is one very specific, psychologically very interesting and meaningful case. That doesn't mean that she misremembers everything. Other characters also remember things wrong.

For instance, Arya both misremembers insignificant details (the name of Joffrey's sword) and important things, such as the fact that Sansa did not support Joffrey's version of the story at the trial, but claimed not to remember what happened. In ASOS, when Sandor is on trial, he claims that Sansa confirmed Joffrey's account that Mycah had attacked Joffrey, which was not true (but Sandor was not actually at the trial - he was off on Cersei's order looking for Arya and Mycah, and killed Mycah before he even came back to hear what happened at the trial) but he may have been told so by Joffrey and Cersei after the trial, or he may have been lying or misremembering himself (even if he was told so, it hardly mattered since Mycah had already been dead, it's not like either him or Cersei had been waiting for Sansa to confirm or not confirm Joffrey's story); and Arya, who was actually there, reacts by screaming that Sansa was a liar, forgetting that Sansa did not actually say that at the trial - maybe because Arya was so angry that Sansa claimed not to remember, that she considered it the same as supporting Joffrey.

[LordManderlyAsDragonRider]

So your against facts and logic got ya. Quotes from the actual text in context meaningless to you.

I don't think anyone are questioning the discrepancies in Sansa memories/versions in the unkiss and the Joffrey and Mycha episode. But you stated that Sansa misremembered Janos Slynts role in the beheading of her father, and that there is no textual prove for.

[Red Wedding Cake]

Fixed that for you.

This very thread and your argument is an exercise in lapse of logic.

I admire your passion Annara but I wish you wouldn't make things so personal. Sansa genuinely seemed to believe Mycah attacked Joffrey when she said

“It’s not the same,” Sansa said. “The Hound is Joffrey’s sworn shield. Your butcher’s boy attacked the prince.”

“You’re horrible,” she screamed. “They should have killed you instead of Lady!”

Sansa remember perfectly what happened at the trident, in AGOT she chose to lie consciously to support her prince's version, but later she tells the TRUTH to the Tyrells.

ASOS 6 SANSA

“Now, child, the truth. What sort of man is this Joffrey, who calls himself Baratheon but looks so very Lannister?”

“AND DOWN THE ROAD FROM HERE TO THERE. FROM HERE! TO THERE! THREE BOYS, A GOAT, AND A DANCING BEAR!”

Sansa felt as though her heart had lodged in her throat. The Queen of Thorns was so close she could smell the old woman’s sour breath. Her gaunt thin fingers were pinching her wrist. To her other side, Margaery was listening as well. A shiver went through her. “A monster,” she whispered, so tremulously she could scarcely hear her own voice. “Joffrey is a monster. He lied about the butcher’s boy and made Father kill my wolf. When I displease him, he has the Kingsguard beat me. He’s evil and cruel, my lady, it’s so. And the queen as well.”

So Sansa WAS lying at the trial!

Sansa is actually a very resilient character, a character who is able to get relatively undamaged through the most horrible events.

Now everyday psychology tends to interpret resilient people as the heroes, those who resist torture and abuse, Hitler, Stalin, flood and draught. The survivors, the winners in the competition of survival. And finally the good guys because they are still there in the end to tell their story.

But resilience has many strategies. And one of the most important strategies is to bend where others break, to swim with the tide, to keep your mouth shut whe others speak up. Sansa has learned to adopt that strategy for survival since speaking up would have been suicidal. Being the talking bird went along with her education, she knows how to please. A helpful lesson here.

But Sansa is able to do more: the whole unreliable narrator thing is a very effective strategy to keep her mind resilient. She reinterpretes reality the way that she can bear it, the way that things are not too much for a child who believes in a world governed by hierarchial order: the commonfolk boy attacked the prince, so he made the mistake. When the Hound saved her from the raging Kingslanders they were unreasonable and did not listen, not revengeful and cruel towards the nobility brat. After all she herself did not do anything to them, the idea that her mere existence was an insult to them did not reach her any more than any other entitled noble. And Sandor wanted to kiss her and was attracted to her, after all every man around her was, they all were staring at her tits. The potential rape was too hard to imagine so she reinterpreted the situation into a harmless kiss, something other girls talked about. I guess Sansa had no idea what rape truly really physically meant.

No, resilient people are not automatically the morally better ones, they can be insensitive, arrogant, entitled, selfish, manipulative, slimy. Just as much as intelligent, charismatic, cunning, compassionate and inspiring. Surviving may be admirable but it is not a a moral achievement.

Resilience is the ability to apply the strategies for survival while staying relatively intact yourself and going on with your life. Too much sensitivity, clearsightedness and social conscience can be counterproductive here.

So Sansa's ability to reinterpret reality for her own protection may help her to survive but it may as well lead her into morally very ambiguous decisions.

Wonderful analysis as always, WoW

[Annara Snow]

I admire your passion Annara but I wish you wouldn't make things so personal. Sansa genuinely seemed to believe Mycah attacked Joffrey when she said

What does that have to do with the assertion that Sansa misremembered whether Janos Slynt threw down Ned during the execution? Which, you know, is what this thread is supposed to be about.

[Red Wedding Cake]

What does that have to do with the assertion that Sansa misremembered whether Janos Slynt threw down Ned during the execution? Which, you know, is what this thread is supposed to be about.

The thread is about Sansa inventing memories she would otherwise know aren't true, such as the night the Hound attacked her and she thinks he kissed her. I thought she invented a memory of Mycah attacking Joffrey, but I guess she was just lying.

[Annara Snow]

The thread is about Sansa inventing memories she would otherwise know aren't true, such as the night the Hound attacked her and she thinks he kissed her. I thought she invented a memory of Mycah attacking Joffrey, but I guess she was just lying.

No, it's not. This is the OP:

I'm doing a reread, and I noticed that in Sansa's last chapter in AGoT, she says that it was Janos Slynt who threw down her father at his execution. but it wasn't him. He just gave the order. I just thought it was another interesting detail that Sansa got wrong.

[Red Wedding Cake]

The thread is titled Sansa: The Unreliable Narrator. This invites discussion of Sansa as an unreliable narrator.

[ChillyPolly]

The thread is titled Sansa: The Unreliable Narrator. This invites discussion of Sansa as an unreliable narrator.

Right. I don't see too many people discussing Janos Slynt, which I suppose is what we SHOULD be discussing if we are really not allowed to take the thread title as our guide.