Sansa: The Unreliable Narrator

[LongRider]

Sansa has a pretty heated hatred for Janos Slynt. Isnt it in one of her chapters that shes like "oh i wish someone would just remove his head from his shoulders...A hero that would be."

And then we get "Edd, fetch me a block."

:smug:

foreshadowing for Jon

[Hrafntýr]

First, I want to say just how much I have enjoyed reading the posts in this thread. So thoughtful and thought-provoking, I really appreciate it!

Great post!

It's interesting that at the beginning of Sandor's "death speech" he is expressing regret and shame about taking the song from Sansa, she did not give it. Sandor wants acceptance, that is what the song means to him but he had to take it from her. She did not give it willingly. Rape is about power, not sex and for me, rape just does not fit with Sandor's MO.

Blackwater was a very emotionally charged moment for Sandor and we can never for sure if for a brief moment the thought might have popped into Sandor's head. It's interesting that people cite the "fucked her bloody" bit as rape intention when actually the more ambiguous part of his speech for me was "I meant to take her too. I should have." There are several ways that could be read.

Really well said. I think that the Hound has been burdened with shame his whole life: the shame of being so vulnerable as a child, helpless against his brother, seeing his parents unable or unwilling to do anything to stop the abuses of his brother, perhaps shame at not being able to save his sister as well. That kind of shame tends to make a person feel that he or she is unloveable. His physical scars manifest his psychological scars, and I can't help to recall the sentiments sometimes expressed with respect to Tyrion, that the gods are marking him as the monster that he really is. His shame, and its attendant rage and resentment, prevents him to exposing his vulnerability, and thus from receiving empathy and help in overcoming his shame. Instead, sadly, he acts in ways that confirm his self-perception and the perception of others that he is "just a dog" with no humanity.

Until Sansa comes along. He's still got the rage and resentment, but this frightened little bird penetrates his psychological defenses and makes him act in ways that don't fit his Hound persona. I'm not sure how much he realizes it, but I think he identifies with and responds to her shame and her fear, because he's full of shame and fearful. And if some part of him identifies with her, perhaps it scares him to see that this young woman so vulnerable, put in these shaming situations, doesn't respond by hardening herself as he had done.

"I wish the hound were here"...oh I think she does....he just doesn't know it yet ;)

Indeed she does, and this, to circle back to the topic of the thread, is at the heart of Sansa's "reliability/unreliability." I think that sometimes our ex post facto recollections of events are when we finally can see what was really going on. Especially where relationships are concerned. I mean, whoa, that scene during the Battle of the Blackwater is just so intense, the characters are swept up in terrifying events and have a tumultuous confusion of feelings. Our fear can make us really poor judges of what is "really" going on in a situation! We might perceive things in the moment that later we realize were utterly different than what was going on at the time.

In this case, there are so many powerful messages being communicated, by and to individuals whose hopes and fears cause them to misperceive and misinterpret. The poor Hound feeling unloveable and despicable, feels he needs "honestly" to show her that he's so unloveable and despicable and expects to see that in her response to him, even as he exposes his shame and vulnerability and need; he wants her to be able to love him. And Sansa responds to both. At the time, we see her own fear and confusion, but in time, she's going to get clarity about this moment, and I think that clarity is expressed by her recalling, in a positive way, a kiss that we didn't see happen.

I would that Sandor, too, could come to see this event in a less negative way, without those overtones of having "forced" her to respond to him with care. Lol, of course, even while I realize the symbolism of the dagger for us readers, it's not that the situation was unmessy in terms of the forcefulness of Sandor's communications! But here I do think that the threat of physical violence was expressive of the emotional force and peril of the situation.

[Le Cygne]

Also found some more sword/phallic symbolism quotes, while looking at the story closer for something else, leading up to the scene (and if you compare their scenes to Jaime and Brienne, there are lots of similarities):

Joffrey makes her kiss his sword:

“Bless my steel with a kiss.” He extended the blade down to her. “Go on, kiss it.”

Sansa prays for the Mother to save Sandor, then says about Joffrey:

Let his sword break...

Sansa wishes Sandor was there:

I would be gladder if it were the Hound, Sansa thought. Harsh as he was, she did not believe Sandor Clegane would let any harm come to her.

Cersei says:

"You'll find men use their swords freely enough. Both kinds of swords."

Sansa defends Sandor's "swordsmanship":

Ser Osmund and his brothers had become great favorites about the castle... With the serving wenches they got on best of all, it was gossiped. Of late Ser Osmund had taken Sandor Clegane’s place by Joffrey’s side, and Sansa had heard the women at the washing well saying he was as strong as the Hound, only younger and faster. If that was so, she wondered why she had never once heard of these Kettleblacks before Ser Osmund was named to the Kingsguard.

And this is similar to her last chapter, she will dream a sweet dream and wake to gossiping women, dogs barking in the yard (they barked whey Lysa "sang" then Sansa dreamed of Sandor asking for a song), swords ringing:

It will be a featherbed, she told herself, soft and warm and deep, piled high with furs. I will dream a sweet dream, and when I wake there will be dogs barking, women gossiping beside the well, swords ringing in the yard. And later there will be a feast, with music and dancing.

[ChillyPolly]

Such a big event to happen off-screen, but GRRM was experimenting with delayed experiences with the Pink Letter towards the end of Dance. Un-Jaime killing Cersei for Lady Stoneheart would put a whole new meaning on a Lannister always pays their debt.

I think the story could fall somewhere inbetween the controversy scale for the two sides of Sansa/Sandor. What if she legitimately never wants to be physical with anyone again, and kills Harry the Heir instead of wooing him. Who inherits the seat of Arryn after Sweetrobin and Harry? Seems like slim pickings. I also think the SanSan fanbase could withstand Sansa killing Sweetrobin and marrying Harry if she also thinks of Sandor.

All hell would break loose if Sansa misremembers Petyr kissing her as her kissing Petyr.

Yeah, well ... that's the whole problem with "controversial with a certain segment of the fandom". It could mean anything at all. And even if we narrow it to the San-San folks, it could still mean almost anything.

[LongRider]

First, I want to say just how much I have enjoyed reading the posts in this thread. So thoughtful and thought-provoking, I really appreciate it!

Me too!

~~snip~~

Until Sansa comes along. He's still got the rage and resentment, but this frightened little bird penetrates his psychological defenses and makes him act in ways that don't fit his Hound persona. I'm not sure how much he realizes it, but I think he identifies with and responds to her shame and her fear, because he's full of shame and fearful. And if some part of him identifies with her, perhaps it scares him to see that this young woman so vulnerable, put in these shaming situations, doesn't respond by hardening herself as he had done.

~~~snip~~~

His first talk with her alone was on the way back from the tourney. Jeff treated her thoughtlessly by having the Hound escort her back as an afterthought. Along the way, he tells her the story of his face, his fear and loathing of his brother, his shame brought about because his father swept Gregor's cruel act under the rug. I think he's surprised by her empathy and frightened too. That's why he tells her he'll kill her if she doesn't keep his secret; he scared himself.

[ChillyPolly]

@ChillyPolly: Perhaps you might start a separate thread for your fascinating theory about Brienne/Jaime/Sansa's future arcs? Interesting as it might be, it seems mostly tangential to this thread's topic of Sansa's reliability or unreliability as a narrator.

Thank you for your kind words. For the record, I have started a new thread with the theory here, in accordance with your suggestion.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/122171-sansa-her-quirky-perception-memory-the-new-hound/

However, I reject any attempt to imply, however politely expressed, that my post was off topic, or persons with minority views should be confined to their own threads or ghettos. Regardless of whether I start my own threads or not, it seems I ought to have the right to comment on other threads.

Judging by the title, this thread was about Sansa, Unreliable Narrator. By that standard my post was clearly on topic. I listed several examples of Sansa being unreliable and placed them within the context of a theory attempting to explain their narrative significance.

But if we judge by the OP, this thread is about whether Sansa's words or thoughts about Janos Slynt are an example of Sansa being unreliable. By that standard 95%+ of the posts in this thread are also off-topic, including mine, but probably also including yours.

I recognize that others had taken over this thread to promote this thread to promote their own theories and ideas before I arrived. But those theories and ideas are even more "tangential" to the idea of Sansa as unreliable narrator as mine were.

[Mad Madam Mim]

First, I want to say just how much I have enjoyed reading the posts in this thread. So thoughtful and thought-provoking, I really appreciate it!

Really well said. I think that the Hound has been burdened with shame his whole life: the shame of being so vulnerable as a child, helpless against his brother, seeing his parents unable or unwilling to do anything to stop the abuses of his brother, perhaps shame at not being able to save his sister as well. That kind of shame tends to make a person feel that he or she is unloveable. His physical scars manifest his psychological scars, and I can't help to recall the sentiments sometimes expressed with respect to Tyrion, that the gods are marking him as the monster that he really is. His shame, and its attendant rage and resentment, prevents him to exposing his vulnerability, and thus from receiving empathy and help in overcoming his shame. Instead, sadly, he acts in ways that confirm his self-perception and the perception of others that he is "just a dog" with no humanity.

Until Sansa comes along. He's still got the rage and resentment, but this frightened little bird penetrates his psychological defenses and makes him act in ways that don't fit his Hound persona. I'm not sure how much he realizes it, but I think he identifies with and responds to her shame and her fear, because he's full of shame and fearful. And if some part of him identifies with her, perhaps it scares him to see that this young woman so vulnerable, put in these shaming situations, doesn't respond by hardening herself as he had done.

Indeed she does, and this, to circle back to the topic of the thread, is at the heart of Sansa's "reliability/unreliability." I think that sometimes our ex post facto recollections of events are when we finally can see what was really going on. Especially where relationships are concerned. I mean, whoa, that scene during the Battle of the Blackwater is just so intense, the characters are swept up in terrifying events and have a tumultuous confusion of feelings. Our fear can make us really poor judges of what is "really" going on in a situation! We might perceive things in the moment that later we realize were utterly different than what was going on at the time.

In this case, there are so many powerful messages being communicated, by and to individuals whose hopes and fears cause them to misperceive and misinterpret. The poor Hound feeling unloveable and despicable, feels he needs "honestly" to show her that he's so unloveable and despicable and expects to see that in her response to him, even as he exposes his shame and vulnerability and need; he wants her to be able to love him. And Sansa responds to both. At the time, we see her own fear and confusion, but in time, she's going to get clarity about this moment, and I think that clarity is expressed by her recalling, in a positive way, a kiss that we didn't see happen.

I would that Sandor, too, could come to see this event in a less negative way, without those overtones of having "forced" her to respond to him with care. Lol, of course, even while I realize the symbolism of the dagger for us readers, it's not that the situation was unmessy in terms of the forcefulness of Sandor's communications! But here I do think that the threat of physical violence was expressive of the emotional force and peril of the situation.

I love this! and a great way to smoothly bring us back on topic (I tend to venture off course at times)

The accuracy of memory can be impacted by many factors, and in looking at the Blackwater scene, a lot of these factors will have contributed to Sansa's mis-memory of the events when recalling them at a later date:

-Stress and trauma: It a highly charged situation with fire and smoke raging outside. Sansa is holed up with the Cersei and the other women in Maegor's Holdfast where there a very real threat to her life. Sansa finally manages to lock herself in her room after believing all is lost and sees firsthand the brutality of the battle outside. She is then grabbed by a very drunk, emotionally unstable man. All in all, very scary!

-Alchohol: Cersei made Sansa drink wine. Alchohol can effect memory.

-Weapons Focus Effect: Sandor held a knife to her throat. Research shows that if a weapon is present, reliability of recalling events can be effected as the 'victims' cognitive energy is focused on the weapon itself rather that attending to other stimulus.

-Time and emotion: You summed this up brilliantly and this is the key to understanding why Sansa specifically remembers a kiss.Memory can decay over time and can be altered by new knowledge, experiences or interpretation of events. In recollecting that night, she has attached her own emotions to her memory and is re-evaluating and responding to it with her new understanding of her own sexuality.

More awesome sauce!

When Bri says to the EB "Sandor Clegen is dead." His reply is "He is at rest." I read that as part of what has put him in a 'restive' state is putting down the persona of Hound. The release of the Hound is part of what will bring out the man and put away the beast.

This is such an important concept to understand. He keeps asking for it too; "Look at me!" "A dog will look you straight in the face." He notes that at least Arya will look at his face. I read this as 'Look at me! Look past the face, look past the Hound and see Sandor Clegane, the man.' Great post.

Love this!

And then Sansa touches him after she sings to him! That was acceptance, going beyond his scars to comfort the man Sandor. No wonder he spent all his time mooning over Sansa when he was with Ayra, that must have been like emotional third base for Sandor.

[Mad Madam Mim]

Sansa defends Sandor's "swordsmanship":


And this is similar to her last chapter, she will dream a sweet dream and wake to gossiping women, dogs barking in the yard (they barked whey Lysa "sang" then Sansa dreamed of Sandor asking for a song), swords ringing:

I never noticed these! This ties in her understanding of 'songs' and she finally understands Sandor's references to singing and reinterprets her understanding of their interactions by placing him in her marriage bed with a reference to a song. This highlights how past events can be shaped by new understanding/knowledge.

I also like this little snippet:

"Sansa had heard the women at the washing well saying he was as strong as the Hound, only younger and faster. If that was so, she wondered why she had never once heard of these Kettleblacks before Ser Osmund was named to the Kingsguard."

[moonjump05]

Sansa, with the benefit of distance and time, has gone back to the night of the Blackwater and changed an emotionally charged and confusing event to something of a fantasy in her mind. She basically looks back on that night with an almost sense of romantic nostalgia. While Sandor himself has looked back on it with regret because Sansa was able to give him some of what he asked for and he screwed it up.

[ccsunflower]

There is a difference between remembering if you had pizza or chicken last night and Your first kiss with a much older man who terrifies you and who killed your dad. Those are things that would burn in the memory.

Sansa is obviously not terrified of the Hound. She muses in ACoK that she wishes Dontos had a bit of the Hound's ferocity and during the BoBW she wishes the Hound were there instead of Payne because "gruff as he was, she did not think Sandor Clegane would allowed any harm to come to her" ( basically) and prays for him in the sept before the battle. In ASoS she thinks "I wish the Hound were here." and don't even get me started on the unkiss and related thoughts of the Hound that clearly shown an attraction to the man on her part. Those topics have been explained and explored in detail on different threads.

These kind of thoughts would not occur about someone of whom she was "terrified".

Also, please explain how the Hound killed her dad?

[ChillyPolly]

Sansa is obviously not terrified of the Hound.

Her feelings for Sandor, depending on circumstances, vary between frightened, very frightened, and terrified. That might not be the whole story, but she mainly reserves her other thoughts about Sandor for the times he is safely far away. When he is present, she is scared, and not without good reason.

From the last time she saw him:

"Her throat was dry and tight with fear, and every song she had ever known had fled from her mind. *Please don't kill me*, she wanted to scream, *Please don't*."

Sounds terrified to me. Sorry.

[A Bastard Snow]

GRRM stated that Sansa being an unreliable narrator will play a part in the series.IMO Sansa is the one who pushed her aunt out the window.I mean she wanted to push Joff to his death and she wanted to kill herself by jumping out a window.I think she honestly thinks LF saved her by killing Lysa and LF is feeding that delusion of him loving and protecting her.

[imaginepageant]

GRRM stated that Sansa being an unreliable narrator will play a part in the series.IMO Sansa is the one who pushed her aunt out the window.I mean she wanted to push Joff to his death and she wanted to kill herself by jumping out a window.I think she honestly thinks LF saved her by killing Lysa and LF is feeding that delusion of him loving and protecting her.

That's going way farther than simply being an unreliable narrator. That's a straight-up hallucination or dissociation, and there's been no evidence of Sansa having any such issues.

[ummester]

GRRM stated that Sansa being an unreliable narrator will play a part in the series.IMO Sansa is the one who pushed her aunt out the window.I mean she wanted to push Joff to his death and she wanted to kill herself by jumping out a window.I think she honestly thinks LF saved her by killing Lysa and LF is feeding that delusion of him loving and protecting her.

That's interesting - it might make me more interested in her as a character also, because at least she would have done something.

Sansa, with the benefit of distance and time, has gone back to the night of the Blackwater and changed an emotionally charged and confusing event to something of a fantasy in her mind. She basically looks back on that night with an almost sense of romantic nostalgia. While Sandor himself has looked back on it with regret because Sansa was able to give him some of what he asked for and he screwed it up.

What if, if Sansa is such an unreliable narrator, Sandor did do something like sexually assault her on that night and we are reading the unreliable narration of a repressed memory trying to escape?

[LongRider]

Sansa is obviously not terrified of the Hound. She muses in ACoK that she wishes Dontos had a bit of the Hound's ferocity and during the BoBW she wishes the Hound were there instead of Payne because "gruff as he was, she did not think Sandor Clegane would allowed any harm to come to her" ( basically) and prays for him in the sept before the battle. In ASoS she thinks "I wish the Hound were here." and don't even get me started on the unkiss and related thoughts of the Hound that clearly shown an attraction to the man on her part. Those topics have been explained and explored in detail on different threads.

These kind of thoughts would not occur about someone of whom she was "terrified".

Also, please explain how the Hound killed her dad?

Sansa is obviously not terrified of the Hound. She muses in ACoK that she wishes Dontos had a bit of the Hound's ferocity and during the BoBW she wishes the Hound were there instead of Payne because "gruff as he was, she did not think Sandor Clegane would allowed any harm to come to her" ( basically) and prays for him in the sept before the battle. In ASoS she thinks "I wish the Hound were here." and don't even get me started on the unkiss and related thoughts of the Hound that clearly shown an attraction to the man on her part. Those topics have been explained and explored in detail on different threads.

These kind of thoughts would not occur about someone of whom she was "terrified".

Also, please explain how the Hound killed her dad?

What ANV said sounds like Littlefinger to me. Sansa is not afraid of the Hound.

[LongRider]

That's going way farther than simply being an unreliable narrator. That's a straight-up hallucination or dissociation, and there's been no evidence of Sansa having any such issues.

It's just bad fan fiction is all.

[A Bastard Snow]

That's going way farther than simply being an unreliable narrator. That's a straight-up hallucination or dissociation, and there's been no evidence of Sansa having any such issues.

And?Years of abuse will tend to fuck you up.Sansa sees LF as her protector so if she did kill Lysa part of her (with LF encouraging it) might just black out what really happened.People repress tramatic events all the time.It would be easier for her to think LF did it and it would feed into her delusion that LF loves and cares about her.

Sansa is already starting to think of herself as LFs daughter and is already okay with SweetRobin dying that aint what you call normal

[Annara Snow]

GRRM stated that Sansa being an unreliable narrator will play a part in the series.IMO Sansa is the one who pushed her aunt out the window.I mean she wanted to push Joff to his death and she wanted to kill herself by jumping out a window.I think she honestly thinks LF saved her by killing Lysa and LF is feeding that delusion of him loving and protecting her.

He said no such thing. He said that the UnKiss will mean something in the future.

The rest of your post is pure silly fanfic and has nothing to do with the actual text.

[Red Wedding Cake]

And?Years of abuse will tend to fuck you up.Sansa sees LF as her protector so if she did kill Lysa part of her (with LF encouraging it) might just black out what really happened.People repress tramatic events all the time.It would be easier for her to think LF did it and it would feed into her delusion that LF loves and cares about her.

I don't think GRRM would write the entire moon door scene with Littlefinger pushing Lysa to her death only to turn it around and make it Sansa all along. Martin is more subtle than that, and we're hoping narration of events as they happen are true, even if they are vague or subjective at times. The moon door scene was also the most important scene for Sansa to see Littlefinger as her protector.

Sansa is already starting to think of herself as LFs daughter and is already okay with SweetRobin dying that aint what you call normal

So far Sansa has rationalized lying, perjury, and working with Littlefinger. Sansa has stayed willfully ignorant in poisoning Sweetrobin, but now that Littlefinger has explained how Robert's death would benefit her it's up for debate if she will go along with it to rebuild Winterfell. The actual Winterfell, not just the Winterfell in the snow that Sansa made with Littlefinger!

[Florina Laufeyson]

It's just bad fan fiction is all.

Arr.

Mim, Le Cygne, LongRider, and Hrafntyr: Nice ones! Im not huge on the whole "Sansa loves Sandor forever" thing, but the symbolism in their relationship is spot on. Both are searching for acceptance after a certain point. Sansa comparing just about every dude she comes across with Sandor does mean that hes the only guy ever who saw Sansa as a person.

And?Years of abuse will tend to fuck you up.Sansa sees LF as her protector so if she did kill Lysa part of her (with LF encouraging it) might just black out what really happened.People repress tramatic events all the time.It would be easier for her to think LF did it and it would feed into her delusion that LF loves and cares about her.

Sansa is already starting to think of herself as LFs daughter and is already okay with SweetRobin dying that aint what you call normal

*snort* Sure, mate. Surrrreee...

Sansa sees LF as a protector, but not much more than that. She often muses between the difference in personas (Petyr vs Littlefinger), but i dont recall a single instant where she's like "Oh he does this because he cares". Hardly. Shes going along with the bullshit because...she really doesnt have a choice. Yet.