Sansa: The Unreliable Narrator

[Le Cygne]

He's clearly writing a romance, the evidence is abundant. And he's invested a lot of time in this one, too, it began in the first book, and Sandor has been in nearly every one of Sansa's chapters since then.

It's perfectly normal to think romantically about someone you've fallen in love with, and it's obvious upon a close reading that he wants to work for Robb to find a way back to Sansa. He's as far gone on her as she is on him.

One can take every aspect of the story and paint it cynically, because one wants her paired with a different character, but that's fighting what the author is doing, and there's no real purpose to it. He's not going to stop telling this story.

[Isobel Harper]

He's clearly writing a romance, the evidence is abundant. And he's invested a lot of time in this one, too, it began in the first book, and Sandor has been in nearly every one of Sansa's chapters since then.

It's perfectly normal to think romantically about someone you've fallen in love with, and it's obvious upon a close reading that he wants to work for Robb to find a way back to Sansa. He's as far gone on her as she is on him.

One can take every aspect of the story and paint it cynically, because one wants her paired with a different character, but that's fighting what the author is doing, and there's no real purpose to it. He's not going to stop telling this story.

We all interpret books differently. I personally never interpreted this series as such, nor would many others I suspect. To be sure, Sansa is in love with him. There's no doubt of that, although I feel that she is more in love with the idea of him than anything else.

[Le Cygne]

The series is not a romance, I never said that. I said he's writing a romance for Sansa and Sandor.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Sansa is having her sexual awakening with the Hound. That's what happens.

Joffrey was an abstract idea of knights, kisses and baby princes/princesses. With the Hound, she's actually daydreaming about him taking her to bed. Awkward as it sounds, GRRM is showing us Sansa's sexual development and her understanding of what eroticism is. Their relationship is very "woman vs man", so to speak. She's a girly girl and he's a manly man.

[Karmarni]

I don't think Sansa would reject him solely on the reason that he is not an actual knight, but hit the nail on the head. Her idea of him does not align with who he truly is. Her infatuation with him is constructed out of the idea of him. I think that's partly where "Sansa, the unreliable narrator" leads to. She changes who he is in her mind, just as she changes what happened during that night into the "unkiss." Similarly, at the end of AFFC, we see her opinion of Jon Snow becoming more positive as well. I doubt it's something to the extent that she is delusional. It's human nature to misremember things in the past as they become clouded with feelings of the present.

ETA: And being in love with "the idea of someone" is certainly not anything new, in the fictional world or real world.

Yes. By Sandor not being a knight, I didn't mean it so much as pointing out that he wasn't (or that Sansa hadn't matured her version of what a 'knight' is to see passed this). I meant it in the way that Sandor himself does not believe in the hypocrisy of what being a knight is, even in so far as being likened to a knight. Sandor thinks it's all BS - he probably likes Sansa but would think what she sees him as is BS as well.

Sansa knows who Sandor Clegane is. She hasn't truly changed her mind about that. She says at her wedding to Tyrion, that Tyrion is "even uglier than the Hound." She knows he's not a knight and she's glad of it, she doesn't like knights herself any longer. Sandor may not believe in the hypocrisy of knights, be he is more of a knight to Sansa herself than any of the anointed knights are. I think the Hound would be gobsmacked if he knew how Sansa thought about his kiss so much.

Ultimately, I think the story between Sansa Stark and Sandor Clegane is pulling them closer together rather than further apart. It's all contained in the Mother's Hymn:

"Save our sons from war we pray . . . let them know a better day.

Help our daughters through this fray . . . teach us all a kinder way."

[ummester]

Sansa is having her sexual awakening with the Hound. That's what happens.

Joffrey was an abstract idea of knights, kisses and baby princes/princesses. With the Hound, she's actually daydreaming about him taking her to bed. Awkward as it sounds, GRRM is showing us Sansa's sexual development and her understanding of what eroticism is. Their relationship is very "woman vs man", so to speak. She's a girly girl and he's a manly man.

I kind of agree with this - the unkiss is definitely Sansa's fantasy, so it could be a coming of sexual age fantasy.

Sansa knows who Sandor Clegane is. She hasn't truly changed her mind about that. She says at her wedding to Tyrion, that Tyrion is "even uglier than the Hound." She knows he's not a knight and she's glad of it, she doesn't like knights herself any longer. Sandor may not believe in the hypocrisy of knights, be he is more of a knight to Sansa herself than any of the anointed knights are. I think the Hound would be gobsmacked if he knew how Sansa thought about his kiss so much.

Ultimately, I think the story between Sansa Stark and Sandor Clegane is pulling them closer together rather than further apart. It's all contained in the Mother's Hymn:

"Save our sons from war we pray . . . let them know a better day.

Help our daughters through this fray . . . teach us all a kinder way."

It's pulling them closer together in Sansa's mind, from her POV - it is not necessarily what Sandor wants (though I suspect he wouldn't say no from a lust perspective) or needs from an emotional perspective.

Sansa can't save Sandor better than gravedigging for priests can. Chances are, if Sandor entwined himself with Sansa, he'd become embroiled in feudal politics and have to kill again - which is exactly not what he needs.

EDIT - If Sansa wanted to show Sandor a better way, with her in it, she would go to him and keep him away from the game. Or they could elope to an Island or something - either way, Sansa would have to be removed from the primary plot, because Sandor cannot become a better person in it.

[Pod The Impaler]

Jeyne Poole had been confined with her, but Jeyne was useless. Her face was puffy from all her crying, and she could not seem to stop crying about her father. "I'm certain your father is well," Sansa told her when she had finally gotten the dress buttoned right. "I'll ask the queen to let you see him." She thought that kindness would lift Jeyne's spirits, but the other girl just looked at her with red, swollen eyes and began to cry all the harder. She was such a child.

This is one of the passages I really like. Sansa (in her mind) accuses Jeyne of being a child, because she's reacting so strongly to the situation, but it's actually Sansa who's the naive child, and Jeyne who knows the score.

Jayne doesn't even say something back, she's so pissed off with her.

Martin wants to get rid of characters in Winds, and if he's already bringing back Jon then bringing back the Hound would seem excessive and counterproductive.

He want's to reduce POV's, not just all characters. Apocalyptic attrition of all life aside, I think the Hound stands a good chance of being in the story again.

We see Arya's jealousy of Sansa in her conciousness of her crooked stitches and (in her mind at least) her lack of beauty that her sister has. We see the Hound embittered by the fame and status that Gregor has.

By itself the stitching is only symbolic of how Sansa excels in the "womanly" arts, used as a sort of authority tool over Arya, who resists deferring to her. If you also look at the relationship between both girls and their mother, Sansa seemed to consistently be the one Cat was proud of and favoured - as Arya viewed it, in her mother's eyes Sansa could do not wrong and Arya could do no right. In another sense, in girly things, in the peacetime pack of Winterfell, Sansa was the alpha female - every girl of their cohort followed her or wanted to be like her, except for Arya. But Arya always had talents of her own - indeed, one of Arya's consistent features is how voraciously and instinctively she learns those skills which she is good at and interested in.

(If you want a commonality, it is not simply that Arya and the Hound both felt overshadowed, but rather, they felt betrayed.)

Imagine if the strange turns of events got stranger: if Sansa found out that Arya and the Hound had traveled together, that he came to respect Arya's strength, and that he saved her too, I bet Sansa would be beside herself with jealously.

"He's been saving Arya, helpless peasants, and Moonboy for all I know !" :tantrum:

[Isobel Harper]

By itself the stitching is only symbolic of how Sansa excels in the "womanly" arts, used as a sort of authority tool over Arya, who resists deferring to her. If you also look at the relationship between both girls and their mother, Sansa seemed to consistently be the one Cat was proud of and favoured - as Arya viewed it, in her mother's eyes Sansa could do not wrong and Arya could do no right. In another sense, in girly things, in the peacetime pack of Winterfell, Sansa was the alpha female - every girl of their cohort followed her or wanted to be like her, except for Arya. But Arya always had talents of her own - indeed, one of Arya's consistent features is how voraciously and instinctively she learns those skills which she is good at and interested in.

(If you want a commonality, it is not simply that Arya and the Hound both felt overshadowed, but rather, they felt betrayed.)

Very good depiction of Arya. You describe the relationship between Arya and Sansa better than I did. This is the parellel that I meant to show between Arya and the Hound, with Gregor being "the favored son," so to speak.

[Le Cygne]

Sandor may not believe in the hypocrisy of knights, be he is more of a knight to Sansa herself than any of the anointed knights are. I think the Hound would be gobsmacked if he knew how Sansa thought about his kiss so much.

Indeed. He wants to protect her, that's his motivation. And his reaction will be wonderful to read.

[Woman of War]

This is one of the passages I really like. Sansa (in her mind) accuses Jeyne of being a child, because she's reacting so strongly to the situation, but it's actually Sansa who's the naive child, and Jeyne who knows the score.

By itself the stitching is only symbolic of how Sansa excels in the "womanly" arts, used as a sort of authority tool over Arya, who resists deferring to her. If you also look at the relationship between both girls and their mother, Sansa seemed to consistently be the one Cat was proud of and favoured - as Arya viewed it, in her mother's eyes Sansa could do not wrong and Arya could do no right. In another sense, in girly things, in the peacetime pack of Winterfell, Sansa was the alpha female - every girl of their cohort followed her or wanted to be like her, except for Arya. But Arya always had talents of her own - indeed, one of Arya's consistent features is how voraciously and instinctively she learns those skills which she is good at and interested in.

(If you want a commonality, it is not simply that Arya and the Hound both felt overshadowed, but rather, they felt betrayed.)

Imagine if the strange turns of events got stranger: if Sansa found out that Arya and the Hound had traveled together, that he came to respect Arya's strength, and that he saved her too, I bet Sansa would be beside herself with jealously.

"He's been saving Arya, helpless peasants, and Moonboy for all I know !" :tantrum:

:rofl:

great

I think the relationship between Arya and Sandor is far more complex and subtly developed than between Sansa and Sandor.

Back to unreliable: Sansa may be a prominent example here. But given her age it is only understandable that she fabricates her own delusional reality about a rape attempt, she does it for self protection. This does not mean she has trouble with reality, at least not so far. it means she had trouble with that violent and abusive attack. And she found an age appropriate way out of that cruel reality: She reinterpreted it.

Maybe Jeyne was indeed the more mature one since she clearly knew how desperate her situation was.

[Le Cygne]

And then there's what really happened.

The official app:

During the Battle of the Blackwater, Clegane leads a force attempting to hold the King's Gate, but is unable to fulfill his duties due to his fear of the burning wildfire raging on the river and on the docks. Instead, he finds his way to Sansa Stark's chambers, where he forces her to sing him a song while trying to work up the courage to take her with him out of the city.

Sansa:

I wish the Hound were here. The night of the battle, Sandor Clegane had come to her chambers to take her from the city, but Sansa had refused. Sometimes she lay awake at night, wondering if she'd been wise. She had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks. She could not say why she'd kept it. The Hound had turned craven, she heard it said; at the height of the battle, he got so drunk the Imp had to take his men. But Sansa understood. She knew the secret of his burned face. It was only the fire he feared. That night, the wildfire had set the river itself ablaze, and filled the very air with green flame. Even in the castle, Sansa had been afraid. Outside... she could scarcely imagine it.

[Woman of War]

Well, sometimes a dagger is just a dagger and meant for bloody work :D

[Red Wedding Cake]

Well, sometimes a dagger is just a dagger and meant for bloody work :D

If all the daggers are phallic imagery, then that means Jon's last Dance chapter was...

:blushing:

[LongRider]

One needs to read the passes in the QI chapter carefully as what the Elder Brother told Brienne about the Hound was a dodge. When the Hound was begging Arya to give him the mercy, who did he talk about? Gregor? No, Sansa. Before that what upset him at the Inn? Learning the Gregor had been at Harrenhal and was called back to KL? No, it was the news of her marriage to Tryion.

When the EB asks Bri why she wants to go to the Saltpans she tells about looking for a highborn girl and he says softly "Sansa Stark." He knows that Bri wants the Hound and knows the Hound and Sansa have history.

The knowledge of the Hound and his hate for his brother is nothing new. The EB expanded on it and very cleverly shaped the readers perception of the Hound. I doubt the Hound told the EB much about Gregor, it was Sansa he cried about to Arya, she was his concern when dying. Why wouldn't he tell the EB the same? I would say he did,

Confessions to a holy man are sacred and private, the EB doesn't give Sandor's confession away. He just compounds on what is commonly known and thought about the Hound anyway. The EB doesn't tell Bri that the Hound has 'found peace.' He says that Sandor Clegane was "At rest."

As for Sandor fighting again? I think he will if feels the need, but doubt he'll be a hired sword like he was in KL. Will he leave the QI when he's rested up? Or will Sansa find her way the QI?

One way or another, Sandor and Stranger will come off the QI.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

As for Sandor fighting again? I think he will if feels the need, but doubt he'll be a hired sword like he was in KL. Will he leave the QI when he's rested up? Or will Sansa find her way the QI?

One way or another, Sandor and Stranger will come off the QI.

There is a chance we've seen the last of the Hound. He's already done a heap for Sansa, in terms of protecting her from harm in KL, but more importantly in terms of her character development (when she slowly realises he is more of a knight than the guys she's been pining over; this feeds into how she begins to question honour and all that stuff). With her flight from KL, it's time for Sansa to make it or break it in the real world without any protection (no Lady, no Sandor, just her).

I think there is an element of romanticising in how people see Sansa and Sandor - especially how she has to somehow "end up" with him for the whole thing to have any meaning.

Even if Sandor had died and never made it to QI, and even if he's really at QI and never leaves again, his impact on Sansa has been so profound that it wouldn't feel like the reader has been cheated of a "resolution".

[Le Cygne]

Sansa views Sandor as her protector.

1) The mob was about to rape her. Sandor saved her.

2) Cersei scares her about rape. She wishes Sandor was there to protect her.

3) Marillion was about to rape her. She thought Sandor was there to save her.

4) Tyrion was about to rape her (and he made her strip and groped her). She replaces him with positive thoughts about Sandor.

Also, this is the case with Littlefinger, when he forcibly kisses her, he reminds her of Marillion. Later, when she wants to trust Bronze Yohn, and beg for his protection, he reminds her of the Hound.

[Grail King]

That's interesting. I've been wondering if Sansa has been unconsciously developing her warg abilities by forming an empathic bond with the weaker-minded. Sandor was in a feral state; when I read the passage about Lollys being dragged by mother and Shae at BBWB, it seems to me that for a moment Sansa almost reached her; and of course she "has a way" with Robin. It's not warging - it's more like touching another's mind. Using the word "instinct" about her cupping his face may be a clue.

Seems that skinchanging into another person is quite hard and the other person fights it (even Hodor at first). It may well happen without Sansa realising she's doing it (Arya still doesn't know she's warging Nymeria) - but I'm not sure how Sandor wouldn't have noticed. Thistle the spearwife in the Varamyr prologue bit off her tongue and clawed her eyes out..

Maybe the fact that Sandor cared for Sansa, and Sansa's very gentle approach, alleviated that.

I don't think Ezra is referring to actual warging. It's more of a hightened ability to empathize, which I've also wondered if she has. We may eventually see it to be a supernatural natural ability, though I don't think she'll be able to truly warg with Lady no longer being alive.

This is the power I'm referring to, though Sansa might not have this ability at full capacity.

My interpretation is Sansa is a strong empath, Sandor is a very strong mind, even Bran would have difficulty getting control of a strong mind look how hard it was with Hodor, I also think she got into Baleish's head with the forced kiss and may have felt his deceit .

Yes

[LongRider]

~~~~~snip~~~~

Imagine if the strange turns of events got stranger: if Sansa found out that Arya and the Hound had traveled together, that he came to respect Arya's strength, and that he saved her too, I bet Sansa would be beside herself with jealously.

"He's been saving Arya, helpless peasants, and Moonboy for all I know !" :tantrum:

I see this differently. Sansa thought Arya was dead. Why would she be mad to learn a family member survived and escaped KL? And knowing the Hound I don't see that she would be surprised to learn that he protected her sister as well. He has showed her that he can protect the weak and Arya really needed protection at that time. Plus, unlike the BWB he took her straight to Cat and Robb.

Edit: and then saved her life at the Twins.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

My interpretation is Sansa is a strong empath, Sandor is a very strong mind, even Bran would have difficulty getting control of a strong mind look how hard it was with Hodor, I also think she got into Baleish's head with the forced kiss and may have felt his deceit .

Yes

I would say that, yes, 100% (and it took me 2 re-reads to get this), Sansa is incredibly insightful and empathetic.

What I'm not sure about is some of the assertions above that this knack for understanding people on an emotional level (empathy) is related to her warging ability, or is otherwise magical/supernatural. We don't have any textual evidence of, or reference to, any standalone empathy ability on Planetos. It would also be a bit cheap - isn't it better her empathy is just a part of who she is as a person?

[LongRider]

I would say that, yes, 100% (and it took me 2 re-reads to get this), Sansa is incredibly insightful and empathetic.

What I'm not sure about is some of the assertions above that this knack for understanding people on an emotional level (empathy) is related to her warging ability, or is otherwise magical/supernatural. We don't have any textual evidence of, or reference to, any standalone empathy ability on Planetos. It would also be a bit cheap - isn't it better her empathy is just a part of who she is as a person?

:agree:

Well said.