Sansa: The Unreliable Narrator

[Le Cygne]

There's also Beauty and the Beast:

The Beast assumes a passive role and Beauty an active one. The Beast basically sits around waiting to be rescued by the handsome princess, as soon as she loosens her ties with home and family, especially her father...

The Beast, who is first seen as repulsive, is in the end seen, before any transformation, as irresistible. He is an ostensible villain who turns out to be vulnerable and even heroic in beastly form...

The Beast's task is patience; Beauty's is perception. Beauty, first seen as infinitely desirable, finds herself desiring... Before her final choice, one is attracted to the Beast and impatient with Beauty...

Here's the author:

http://people.lis.illinois.edu/~ehearne/books.html

[Le Cygne]

There is a chance we've seen the last of the Hound. He's already done a heap for Sansa, in terms of protecting her from harm in KL, but more importantly in terms of her character development (when she slowly realises he is more of a knight than the guys she's been pining over; this feeds into how she begins to question honour and all that stuff). With her flight from KL, it's time for Sansa to make it or break it in the real world without any protection (no Lady, no Sandor, just her).

I think there is an element of romanticising in how people see Sansa and Sandor - especially how she has to somehow "end up" with him for the whole thing to have any meaning.

Even if Sandor had died and never made it to QI, and even if he's really at QI and never leaves again, his impact on Sansa has been so profound that it wouldn't feel like the reader has been cheated of a "resolution".

I posted some references above, but Sansa and Sandor are the ones who are presently - at the last moments we saw both characters - romanticizing each other. That's an indication of an ongoing story.

And the author has not only said he's telling this story, he also said quite clearly she'd think of kissing him again in the story to come. There's no resolution because the story isn't finished yet.

[OldGimletEye]

:rofl:

great

I think the relationship between Arya and Sandor is far more complex and subtly developed than between Sansa and Sandor.

Back to unreliable: Sansa may be a prominent example here. But given her age it is only understandable that she fabricates her own delusional reality about a rape attempt, she does it for self protection. This does not mean she has trouble with reality, at least not so far. it means she had trouble with that violent and abusive attack. And she found an age appropriate way out of that cruel reality: She reinterpreted it.

Maybe Jeyne was indeed the more mature one since she clearly knew how desperate her situation was.

Your evidence of a rape attempt being what exactly? You keep insisting that Sandor attempted to rape Sansa or had an intent to do so, but you know the evidence that he had the intent to rape Sansa the night of the Blackwater is pretty thin. Your evidence of rape appears to be primarily based on a couple of lines Sandor said while he was dying. Before Sandor received his wounds, he was obviously pissed off about Tyrion being married to her.

Other evidence of Sandor's intent to rape Sansa appears to be "OMG, but he was big, used harsh language, and drank too much, so golly he just has to be a rapist!"

If Sandor had formed an intent to rape Sansa on the night of the Blackwater, then why would he bother with all that "I could keep you safe" stuff. He could have just gone into Sansa's room, then raped her and then left.

[Karmarni]

With her flight from KL, it's time for Sansa to make it or break it in the real world without any protection (no Lady, no Sandor, just her).

Whatever the outcome, I don't see a "just her" happening. At present, she's penniless, basically friendless since she's been isolated in the Eyrie, and homeless. Her best bet right now is Sweetrobin, since he's family and the Lord of the Eyrie.

Far as I know, she doesn't even have a horse to her name and she's been wearing Lysa's clothes.

Even Cersei had her father, her brother and King Bob. Like GRRM says, Sansa's got "her wits."

[Le Cygne]

If Sandor had formed an intent to rape Sansa on the night of the Blackwater, then why would he bother with all that "I could keep you safe" stuff. He could have just gone into Sansa's room, then raped her and then left.

And he's a very strong guy, the dagger was completely unnecessary in that scene, if it didn't mean what it meant, which is the same thing it meant in all of those other romantic stories GRRM has written (Jaime/Brienne, Jon/Ygritte, Dany/Daario, Asha/Qarl, Dunk/Rohanne, etc.)

But apparently the story doesn't matter. As long as Sansa is paired with Guy She Doesn't Want or Guy She Never Met. And fucks Littlefinger, because that would be such great drama.

Whatever the outcome, I don't see a "just her" happening.

And she dreams of marriage and a family of her own. There's this false notion that if you love someone, that's some sort of weakness. Not sure where that comes from, because it's a safe bet most readers would not make the choice to be alone.

[OldGimletEye]

And fucks Littlefinger, because that would be such great drama.

Yes, but, apparently, to only those that have some super refined high flutin literature appreciatin skillz. I don't have that, so I am pretty down on that idea.

[Grail King]

I would say that, yes, 100% (and it took me 2 re-reads to get this), Sansa is incredibly insightful and empathetic.

What I'm not sure about is some of the assertions above that this knack for understanding people on an emotional level (empathy) is related to her warging ability, or is otherwise magical/supernatural. We don't have any textual evidence of, or reference to, any standalone empathy ability on Planetos. It would also be a bit cheap - isn't it better her empathy is just a part of who she is as a person?

I'm basing it on GRRM stating all the Stark kids are wargs with Sansa's more stunted because she lost Lady very early in the series and some as I think visual hints in the TV series, like how she sensed someone watching her from the Godswood in KL, I'm sure she knew Jamie and Brienne were there,but Dontos wasn't and she sensed something amd looked up and saw nothing, and when SR was behind her in the snow castle scene along with the Baleish scene especially when the why protect me scene in the show came after the kiss and Lysa's death.

Of course these may not be what I read.

[Red Wedding Cake]

If Sandor had formed an intent to rape Sansa on the night of the Blackwater, then why would he bother with all that "I could keep you safe" stuff. He could have just gone into Sansa's room, then raped her and then left.

Sansa refused Sandor, and then Sandor became more violent. If Sandor's plan for Sansa was the same as his plan for Arya then he was hoping to sell her back to her family.

Other evidence of Sandor's intent to rape Sansa appears to be "OMG, but he was big, used harsh language, and drank too much, so golly he just has to be a rapist!"

Sandor throws Sansa on the bed and puts a knife to her throat and thinks she owes him a "song"

“Still can’t bear to look, can you?” she heard him say. He gave her arm a hard wrench, pulling her around and shoving her down onto the bed. “I’ll have that song. Florian and Jonquil, you said.” His dagger was out, poised at her throat. “Sing little bird. Sing for your little life.”

Her throat was dry and tight with fear, and every song she had ever known had fled from her mind. Please don’t kill me, she wanted to scream, please don’t. She could feel him twisting the point, pushing it into her throat, and she almost closed her eyes again, but then she remembered.

Your evidence of rape appears to be primarily based on a couple of lines Sandor said while he was dying. Before Sandor received his wounds, he was obviously pissed off about Tyrion being married to her.

Sansa was not a willing participant when the Hound forced her on the bed and threatened her with a knife, so yeah, it does seem like Sandor was telling the truth when he said he wanted to rape her bloody.

“Don’t lie,” he growled. “I hate liars. I hate gutless frauds even worse. Go on, do it.” When Arya did not move, he said, “I killed your butcher’s boy. I cut him near in half, and laughed about it after.” He made a queer sound, and it took her a moment to realize he was sobbing. “And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song. She never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for the dwarf.”

Yes, but, apparently, to only those that have some super refined high flutin literature appreciatin skillz. I don't have that, so I am pretty down on that idea.

Don't beat yourself up about it. It's a discussion and you're entitled to your own opinion surrounding the text. I did like your analysis of Westerosi currency.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

And she dreams of marriage and a family of her own. There's this false notion that if you love someone, that's some sort of weakness. Not sure where that comes from, because it's a safe bet most readers would not make the choice to be alone.

I see a lot of this in analysis of Sansa. The fact that she should (I dunno why she should in first place) become a figure of authority or power, or a symbol of the rebirth of Winterfell, would deprive her of love and motherhood, as though the path of the leader is to walk alone. Funny, considering that when others analyse Jon becoming King, they see him with a Queen, whether is Dany, Val or Arianne. The fact that it's assumed she should be some sort of virgin Queen is borderline sexist, as if sex would stain her or soil her.

And he's a very strong guy, the dagger was completely unnecessary in that scene, if it didn't mean what it meant, which is the same thing it meant in all of those other romantic stories GRRM has written (Jaime/Brienne, Jon/Ygritte, Dany/Daario, Asha/Qarl, Dunk/Rohanne, etc.)

About the daggers, I think that's some kind of "in your face" moment from Martin. As arbour and sapphires are associated with lies or deceive, daggers in a man/female encounter are meant to represent eroticism and desire. Sansa is yet too young to understand what sexual desire is, but she's already feeling and experience it. The dagger only makes the situation obvious for readers and kinda clarify that they are sexually equals.

[Le Cygne]

I see a lot of this in analysis of Sansa. The fact that she should (I dunno why she should in first place) become a figure of authority or power, or a symbol of the rebirth of Winterfell, would deprive her of love and motherhood, as though the path of the leader is to walk alone. Funny, considering that when others analyse Jon becoming King, they see him with a Queen, whether is Dany, Val or Arianne. The fact that it's assumed she should be some sort of virgin Queen is borderline sexist, as if sex would stain her or soil her.

About the daggers, I think that's some kind of "in your face" moment from Martin. As arbour and sapphires are associated with lies or deceive, daggers in a man/female encounter are meant to represent eroticism and desire. Sansa is yet too young to understand what sexual desire is, but she's already feeling and experience it. The dagger only makes the situation obvious for readers and kinda clarify that they are sexually equals.

Yes to all of this! The bold is nicely stated.

And this is great symbolism, too (he uses the bells ringing in other stories, too):

Sansa heard cloth ripping, followed by the softer sound of retreating footsteps... She found his cloak on the floor, twisted up tight, the white wool stained by blood and fire... She shook out the torn cloak and huddled beneath it on the floor, shivering... How long she stayed there she could not have said...

How long she stayed there she could not have said, but after a time she heard a bell ringing, far off across the city. The sound was a deep-throated bronze booming, coming faster with each knell. Sansa was wondering what it might mean when a second bell joined in, and a third, their voices calling across the hills and hollows, the alleys and towers, to every corner... She threw off the cloak and went to her window.

[ChillyPolly]

Agree that Sansa is not more or less reliable than any other narrator. She may however, be unreliable in specific ways. She may miss things that others see, as well as see things that others miss.

In Sansa's case, I suspect much of her unreliability will resolve around an identity-confusion subplot involving Sandor and another character:

(1) Sansa is skilled at recognizing people (such as Renly or Barristan) by their external emblems (but perhaps less good at recognizing the true person underneath).

(2) Sandor, in turn, is known for his superficial emblems, such as his helm, his scars, his horse. He has lost the helm, and his scars may be partly healed by the Elder Brother. Who knows what will become of the horse.

(3) Sansa spends most of her time trying not to look at Sandor, because he frightens her.

(4) Sansa has an ability to "look without seeing" at things that frighten her (such as her father's head on a spike). When she is forced to look at it, she is able to protect herself from psychological trauma by convincing herself that it does not really look like her father at all.

(5) When she is forced to look at Sandor, Sansa's focus is on the things that frighten her, such as the rage in his eyes, and the scars on his face. These things may have been partly healed by the Elder Brother, and/or altered by new facial wounds.

(6) Even so, she does not see his facial injuries accurately. She thinks he has no ear left, only a hole where his ear once was. This is not true. This seems to indicate that she is so focussed on his wounds that she fails to accurately see what is left of his face.

(7) The subjectivity of her perception of facial features is again demonstrated with Joffrey. She thinks she is in love with him, but what she is in love with is an ideal. When she realizes he is a monster, she perceives for the first time that he has fat wormy lips.

(8) Sansa has already briefly mistaken the voice of another man (Lothor Brune) for that of Sandor.

(9) The "unkiss" is another indication that Sansa's memory may be unreliable where Sandor is concerned.

(10) Sandor's "Hound" identity appears to have moved on, without Sandor, first to Rorge, then to Lem [& then to Whom???].

(11) Bran's dream seems to predict Sansa being menaced by 3 "shadows". The term "shadow" may refer to revenants like UnCat ("A grimmer shadow leads us now"). This seems to be confirmed by evidence that one of the 3 shadows may be UnGregor (Robert Strong). That the "shadow with the terrible face of a hound" is not Sandor, is suggested by the fact that "Sandor the Hound" and "Robert Strong" are not contemporaries, and also by the Elder Brother's words suggesting that Sandor no longer embodies what "the Hound" represents. By that point, the Hound identity has moved on to other people? So who is this Undead Hound who will menace Sansa?

(12) With her large, masculine build Brienne seems custom designed as a male-impersonator, though so far she and the author have never tried to take advantage of this for any purpose. She also has, or is developing, a huge number of parallels to Sandor: (a.) is about 6 foot 8 inches with broad shoulders, (b.) has horrible injuries on half her face; (c.) Has a forearm in a cast; (d) has sword wound to her upper thigh; (e) blue eyes that may appear grey depending on the light or the changes of undeath; (f) appears to be Sandor's age -- ie. seems to have aged 10 years; (g) death by hanging may result in a rough voice and visible injuries around the throat and neck; (h) knows where to find Sandor's horse Stranger (who likes to bite ears off strawhead blonds); and (i) was recently seen in the vicinity of the Hound helm. Her sex will be a minimal disadvantage to an undead person, who does not even need to use the privy. The most important feature that seems to distinguish her from Sandor is her fat lips; and this oddly seems to recall Sansa's strange experience with noticing Joffrey's fat lips for the first time, after realizing he was a monster (Sansa has never noticed or described Sandor's lips before, except in the context of remembering a kiss that never happened).

(13) To add further to the confusion, Brienne has features in common with the last known "Hound", Lem: fat lips and badly-broken nose. Lem in turn may have features in common with Sandor (such as a snarly way of talking and stained faded cloak that used to be green). All 3 are built like large warriors. GRRM may be planning to keep his fans in the dark, and guessing as to who is who.

(14) There are other reasons to suspect Brienne is undead. People don't normally survive hangings, and UnBeric (an undead) is the sole known "exception". UnCat's execution order was not conditional, and UnCat was not present to countermand the order when Brienne screamed "sword". She looks awful when seen by Jaime in ADWD. Before her hanging, she was linked to a number of death-themed dreams involving her and/or Jaime, including a dream where she was menaced by a legendary sorcerer famed for the animation and enslavement of the dead. Another dream involves her watching helplessly while a "shadow" (striking, it seems, from her direction) cuts down a man who looks like Renly but who is not Renly. Consistent with other revenants, her POV seems to have ceased with her hanging (she had no POV in aDwD, and no Brienne POV chapters have been reliably rumored for the coming volume).

(15) GRRM has said in interviews that revenants (like UnBeric and UnCat) lose humanity but are driven by oaths and mission. This dovetails nicely with Brienne, because she is definitely driven by oaths and missions; and particularly by a mission of vengeance since she swore to take Renly's sword and kill Renly's slayer (Stannis). She swore this 3 times, and later reminds Catelyn of this fact. Catelyn in turn swears to Brienne that she will allow her to pursue Stannis, if she first fulfils other duties to Catelyn. In this context, she swears to serve Catelyn, and hunt Sansa. Her dying scream "sword" represents the oath "take the sword and kill the kingslayer", which echoes her original oath concerning Stannis, but extends it to other people including (but perhaps not limited to) Jaime. Catelyn's oath that she would not not keep Brienne from Stannis (provided she fulfilled other oaths first) may in turn motivate UnCat to order Thoros to give Brienne the kiss of fire (foreshadowed by Hyle Hunt: "Your lips were made for kissing") or give it herself if Thoros refuses, just as UnBeric may have done the same to Catelyn in part to fulfil his oath to Arya and/or loyalty to Ned.

(16). At one point, Sansa remembers that Sandor was Joffrey's sworn shield for years, and wonders how he feels about her being (at least by reputation) King Joffrey's slayer. This fear or expectation dovetails with what is likely to happen with an inhuman, oath-driven UnBrienne: She will come searching for Sansa, wearing the "Hound" helm, to fulfil her oath to Catelyn to find Sansa and/or kill kingslayers, which she is oath-bound to fulfill before she can pursue Stannis.

[Le Cygne]

99.9% of that is wrong, but way to hijack a thread with your UnBrienne theory.

[LongRider]

99.9% of that is wrong, but way to hijack a thread with your UnBrienne theory.

The Bat Signal just went off. LOUD AND CLEAR!

[ChillyPolly]

99.9% of that is wrong, but way to hijack a thread with your UnBrienne theory.

The post is on topic. The OP asked for theories and speculation on the plot significance of Sansa being an "unreliable narrator". This is such a theory. You do not give specifics as to what is wrong with it. I know you have objected before, and with due respect, I did not find your objections convincing or supported by the text.

[LongRider]

DON'T FEED THIS TROLL!

[Red Wedding Cake]

Agree that Sansa is not more or less reliable than any other narrator. She may however, be unreliable in specific ways. She may miss things that others see, as well as see things that others miss.

In Sansa's case, I suspect much of her unreliability will resolve around an identity-confusion subplot involving Sandor and another character:

(1) Sansa is skilled at recognizing people (such as Renly or Barristan) by their external emblems (but perhaps less good at recognizing the true person underneath).

(2) Sandor, in turn, is known for his superficial emblems, such as his helm, his scars, his horse. He has lost the helm, and his scars may be partly healed by the Elder Brother. Who knows what will become of the horse.

(3) Sansa spends most of her time trying not to look at Sandor, because he frightens her.

(4) Sansa has an ability to "look without seeing" at things that frighten her (such as her father's head on a spike). When she is forced to look at it, she is able to protect herself from psychological trauma by convincing herself that it does not really look like her father at all.

(5) When she is forced to look at Sandor, Sansa's focus is on the things that frighten her, such as the rage in his eyes, and the scars on his face. These things may have been partly healed by the Elder Brother, and/or altered by new facial wounds.

(6) Even so, she does not see his facial injuries accurately. She thinks he has no ear left, only a hole where his ear once was. This is not true. This seems to indicate that she is so focussed on his wounds that she fails to accurately see what is left of his face.

(7) The subjectivity of her perception of facial features is again demonstrated with Joffrey. She thinks she is in love with him, but what she is in love with is an ideal. When she realizes he is a monster, she perceives for the first time that he has fat wormy lips.

(8) Sansa has already briefly mistaken the voice of another man (Lothor Brune) for that of Sandor.

(9) The "unkiss" is another indication that Sansa's memory may be unreliable where Sandor is concerned.

(10) Sandor's "Hound" identity appears to have moved on, without Sandor, first to Rorge, then to Lem [& then to Whom???].

(11) Bran's dream seems to predict Sansa being menaced by 3 "shadows". The term "shadow" may refer to revenants like UnCat ("A grimmer shadow leads us now"). This seems to be confirmed by evidence that one of the 3 shadows may be UnGregor (Robert Strong). That the "shadow with the terrible face of a hound" is not Sandor, is suggested by the fact that "Sandor the Hound" and "Robert Strong" are not contemporaries, and also by the Elder Brother's words suggesting that Sandor no longer embodies what "the Hound" represents. By that point, the Hound identity has moved on to other people? So who is this Undead Hound who will menace Sansa?

(12) With her large, masculine build Brienne seems custom designed as a male-impersonator, though so far she and the author have never tried to take advantage of this for any purpose. She also has, or is developing, a huge number of parallels to Sandor: (a.) is about 6 foot 8 inches with broad shoulders, (b.) has horrible injuries on half her face; (c.) Has a forearm in a cast; (d) has sword wound to her upper thigh; (e) blue eyes that may appear grey depending on the light or the changes of undeath; (f) appears to be Sandor's age -- ie. seems to have aged 10 years; (g) death by hanging may result in a rough voice and visible injuries around the throat and neck; (h) knows where to find Sandor's horse Stranger (who likes to bite ears off strawhead blonds); and (i) was recently seen in the vicinity of the Hound helm. Her sex will be a minimal disadvantage to an undead person, who does not even need to use the privy. The most important feature that seems to distinguish her from Sandor is her fat lips; and this oddly seems to recall Sansa's strange experience with noticing Joffrey's fat lips for the first time, after realizing he was a monster (Sansa has never noticed or described Sandor's lips before, except in the context of remembering a kiss that never happened).

(13) To add further to the confusion, Brienne has features in common with the last known "Hound", Lem: fat lips and badly-broken nose. Lem in turn may have features in common with Sandor (such as a snarly way of talking and stained faded cloak that used to be green). All 3 are built like large warriors. GRRM may be planning to keep his fans in the dark, and guessing as to who is who.

(14) There are other reasons to suspect Brienne is undead. People don't normally survive hangings, and UnBeric (an undead) is the sole known "exception". UnCat's execution order was not conditional, and UnCat was not present to countermand the order when Brienne screamed "sword". She looks awful when seen by Jaime in ADWD. Before her hanging, she was linked to a number of death-themed dreams involving her and/or Jaime, including a dream where she was menaced by a legendary sorcerer famed for the animation and enslavement of the dead. Another dream involves her watching helplessly while a "shadow" (striking, it seems, from her direction) cuts down a man who looks like Renly but who is not Renly. Consistent with other revenants, her POV seems to have ceased with her hanging (she had no POV in aDwD, and no Brienne POV chapters have been reliably rumored for the coming volume).

(15) GRRM has said in interviews that revenants (like UnBeric and UnCat) lose humanity but are driven by oaths and mission. This dovetails nicely with Brienne, because she is definitely driven by oaths and missions; and particularly by a mission of vengeance since she swore to take Renly's sword and kill Renly's slayer (Stannis). She swore this 3 times, and later reminds Catelyn of this fact. Catelyn in turn swears to Brienne that she will allow her to pursue Stannis, if she first fulfils other duties to Catelyn. In this context, she swears to serve Catelyn, and hunt Sansa. Her dying scream "sword" represents the oath "take the sword and kill the kingslayer", which echoes her original oath concerning Stannis, but extends it to other people including (but perhaps not limited to) Jaime. Catelyn's oath that she would not not keep Brienne from Stannis (provided she fulfilled other oaths first) may in turn motivate UnCat to order Thoros to give Brienne the kiss of fire (foreshadowed by Hyle Hunt: "Your lips were made for kissing") or give it herself if Thoros refuses, just as UnBeric may have done the same to Catelyn in part to fulfil his oath to Arya and/or loyalty to Ned.

(16). At one point, Sansa remembers that Sandor was Joffrey's sworn shield for years, and wonders how he feels about her being (at least by reputation) King Joffrey's slayer. This fear or expectation dovetails with what is likely to happen with an inhuman, oath-driven UnBrienne: She will come searching for Sansa, wearing the "Hound" helm, to fulfil her oath to Catelyn to find Sansa and/or kill kingslayers, which she is oath-bound to fulfill before she can pursue Stannis.

I would love Brienne to kill Stannis, and I'm rooting for her if she fights Jaime to the (un)death. I also like theories of where Sansa's story will go with her distorted memory, and it would be great for Brienne to finally find Sansa.

[White Ravens]

Its a trap.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100305231211/uncyclopedia/images/c/cd/Circular_reasoning_fore-back.gif

[GoldHandTheGood]

Sansa views Sandor as her protector.

1) The mob was about to rape her. Sandor saved her.

2) Cersei scares her about rape. She wishes Sandor was there to protect her.

3) Marillion was about to rape her. She thought Sandor was there to save her.

4) Tyrion was about to rape her (and he made her strip and groped her). She replaces him with positive thoughts about Sandor.

Also, this is the case with Littlefinger, when he forcibly kisses her, he reminds her of Marillion. Later, when she wants to trust Bronze Yohn, and beg for his protection, he reminds her of the Hound.

Did Tyrion grope her? I know he had her undress, but I must be misremembering that scene, because I can't recall him groping her. It's probably my poor memory though.

[Le Cygne]

I put your answer on the next post, with quotes...

[LongRider]

Did Tyrion grope her? I know he had her undress, but I must be misremembering that scene, because I can't recall him groping her. It's probably my poor memory though.

He groped her breast. Worth forgetting tho!

:lol: