Disillusioned with Targaryens (Rhaenys as an adulteress)

[Forever May]

Face it, Valyrians (and therefore Targs) are pretty fucked up. They may be the most distasteful thing in the entire saga, conquering, tyrannical, imperialist, incestuous slavers that, theoretically, should be smart enough to behave better.

I have to admit, it's growing hard to deny this. I have finished reading the World of Ice and Fire piece on Targaryen kings and even the good ones were ineffectual, where the bad ones were just plain evil. Aegon the Unworthy is the worst in my view, with the way he used all those woman and then threw them on the street to die. And then you got little cute pictures of the women in the book and everything. So I look at the pictures and then read the horrible stories. They were so beautiful. Now my heart is all broken.

[Forever May]

Umm - I don't want to disappoint you...

But I don't think it is that kind of saga that is heading that way :)

I like disappointment. But neither do I think Martin is as ruthless as his reputation has led people to believe. I think bringing Cat back to life, however horrid she may now be, shows he does indeed struggle with true fatalities. I am just hoping that Jon doesn't die. If he survives the attack on him at the Wall, all well and good. If he is resurrected however, it is going to be too much.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

If ASoIaF had fairies - they would probably be alcoholics :D

:lmao:

hahahahahhaa... I'm laughing aloud :lol:

[Forever May]

So fucking what if she was an adultress, since when did we become bible thumping octogenarians?

Having respect for yourself and your husband, your marriage vows too, this is just plain moral decency. I am not monotheist, either.

[Forever May]

The whole concept of Rhaenys as a slut makes little sense. Yes, she surrounded herself with favorites - dancers, mummers, and the like - but this does not have to mean that she did not love her brother-husband (on the other hand, it would hardly be surprising if she had lots of affairs, as it is rather unusual to be physical attracted to your own sibling, let alone to be deeply and romantically in love with him/her your whole life).

But my guess is that if she had affairs then most likely with Aegon's permission, and with the goal in mind to conceive the heir House Targaryen desperately needed.

It's not really realistic though. I mean, men are typically jealous and don't like the idea of sharing their wives. Furthermore, once the tales got out, Aegon would be the butt of every jape in the Seven Kingdoms and people would be laughing about Rhaenys too. It's not wise for nobles to behave that way as people will loose respect for them and inappropriate for anyone to do anyway. Which is why I said it was just a dumb storyline, but maybe the rumors are false? Hard to say either way but I hate being left in doubt.

[ummester]

I like disappointment. But neither do I think Martin is as ruthless as his reputation has led people to believe. I think bringing Cat back to life, however horrid she may now be, shows he does indeed struggle with true fatalities. I am just hoping that Jon doesn't die. If he survives the attack on him at the Wall, all well and good. If he is resurrected however, it is going to be too much.

He's not that ruthless - he is just grounded in a certain cynical reality.

I don't know what is going to happen with Jon - but I don't think he is gone. I think the Bolton's and Freys will be taken care of - but I think this will be at a cost to the characters we root for.

Think of it like this - in the world of ASoIaF beautiful little princesses with kind hearts exist, in the same way that niave' untested girls exist - they can't win, or be the heroes, like that. They have to grow up first.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

You speak as though this isn't a shameful thing. Yes, wanton behavior may be real and that is my whole point. Dis*illusioned.

"Shame" and "wanton behavior" are relative. You're not going to get me to agree with you, because I'm a real-life Sand Snake. I was treasured and loved on both sides of the family growing up.

In fact, that's one of many things that drew me into the series: the fact that sex, love, desire marriage, and male-female relationships actually reflected reality and not fairy tales. I can absolutely relate to Jon Snow, except my step-parent was amazing and not crappy. That step-parent even encouraged me to get to know my bio dad and his family. And I have great morals -- monogamous, professor, holder of a doctorate, etc.

Whenever people tell me about their family never having situations that result in people like me, the Sand Snakes, Jon Snow, Robert's bastards like Gendry, Edric, and Mya, and Ramsay Bolton, I always say/mutter/think "that you know of." Genetics tell a less... proper tale of human relationships. And at least in my situation, everyone was honest with one another.

So yes, it is absolutely realistic that Aegon and his sisters were aware of difficulties conceiving. While Visenya used magic, Rhaenys may or may not have shared her bed with others. Get over it. It's not real life, and it's not your marriage in question. Why anyone has more of an issue with adultery than incest is strange to me.

And no, the Targaryens are not uniquely FUBAR. Delve deeply enough into the histories of the other Great Houses, and you'll find all sorts of problematic things.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Having respect for yourself and your husband, your marriage vows too, this is just plain moral decency. I am not monotheist, either.

Well, morals are relative. Our morals and the three Targaryen siblings are, for what the books describe, different.

First, they aren't the first marriage who has that kind of arrangement. Elaria and Oberyn (while not exactly a marriage, although they are in everything but on paper), are ok. with experimenting sexually. We don't know if Elia also sleeps with other guys, but if she did, doesn't look like Oberyn has a problem. That is not cheating, that's how they relationship works. Some couples like to swing, for instance. It's their choice.

Now, we don't know what kind of arrangement A had with his sisters. If anything, Aegon was honest. Instead of simply having an affair with Rhaenys, he married her. That doesn't mean he never ever had sex with her before this. We also don' t know how Visenya feel about it. So, it's very complicated. The important thing is that he loved her deeply. And at the end, she decided to have a child with him. I think Rhaenys would be smart enough to know she got pregnant by a guy who wasn't her husband, and she probably had little reasons to cuckold him.

[Faydra]

In the world of ASOAIF, many people of Valyrian descent are able to claim dragons with much ease if they only have one parent or ancestor of Valyrian descent. Rhaenyra's sons by "Laenor" (actually probably Harwin Strong) were claiming the dragons with ease, but so did Viserys I's children by Alicent Hightower, who had no Valyrian blood herself whatsoever, so the fact that people were taking the former as evidence of Rhaenyra's sons being Laenor's is truly hilarious. The "dragonseeds" Ulf and High, if that's what they really were, would have only one parent or ancestor who was of Valyrian descent. Even Dany has more First Men, Andal and Rhoynar blood combined than Valyrian blood.

That's precisely the reason I dislike all the Rhaenys bashing in this thread.

[Forever May]

I’m just going to assume this is a troll thread, because the entire OP has this tone of puritanical misogyny and purity worship that reminds me of 19th century commentaries of the life of Anne Boleyn.

Abhorring adultery is misogyny now, is it?

My surprise was that you seem to spare not one single care at all for the woman's feelings in this. But only care about the man's feelings/pride.

Say Rhaenys wasn't in love with Aegon, she has to just live her whole life as his dutiful faithful wife because he loves her?

The tale we are given speaks of a woman taking many different random lovers to bed, not a tale of a woman longing for true love. Moreover, it is said Rhaenys was the one who did love Aegon, yet she did this anyway. Where is the part where we need to stop to consider the excuse Rhaenys tries to give?

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

I wanted to believe in the romance of the fable, so what can I say? As for the judgmental, we are talking about adultery. If you want to argue Rhaenys deserves the benefit of the doubt, then I will listen. But if she is guilty, it is an abhorrent thing.

Not knowing any details about their relationship or how it functioned, there is no way to accurately assess any sort of rightness or wrongness. This clearly wasn't a standard monogamous relationship as many people would understand it, at least from Aegon's side of it, what with Aegon being married to another woman. Why should we necessarily assume that it was from Rhaenys's side too? Even if it were, why should that double standard in favor of Aegon just be ignored to cast aspersions upon Rhaenys?

Even aside from that there is an open cultural acceptance in Westeros of men sleeping around while married. Should we just uncritically accept this and act like that even if Rhaenys were sleeping around without Aegon's knowledge that she's some sort of singular moral offender? If Rhaenys is some indefensible harlot then what is Aegon IV, or pretty much any other king?

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Well, morals are relative. Our morals and the three Targaryen siblings are, for what the books describe, different.

First, they aren't the first marriage who has that kind of arrangement. Elaria and Oberyn (while not exactly a marriage, although they are in everything but on paper), are ok. with experimenting sexually. We don't know if Elia also sleeps with other guys, but if she did, doesn't look like Oberyn has a problem. That is not cheating, that's how they relationship works. Some couples like to swing, for instance. It's their choice.

Now, we don't know what kind of arrangement A had with his sisters. If anything, Aegon was honest. Instead of simply having an affair with Rhaenys, he married her. That doesn't mean he never ever had sex with her before this. We also don' t know how Visenya feel about it. So, it's very complicated. The important thing is that he loved her deeply. And at the end, she decided to have a child with him. I think Rhaenys would be smart enough to know she got pregnant by a guy who wasn't her husband, and she probably had little reasons to cuckold him.

:agree: Fandom is going to be completely traumatized if we ever learn Elia Martell had a lover, or knew about R+L. People will have a fit.

Also, we have no idea about the full marital arrangement between Aegon and his sisters. For all we know, Visenya could have been sharing her bed with Rhaenys, too. Maybe Rhaenys liked having sex more than her siblings did -- different people have different sex drives. It's all very complex. We know very little and probably will never know.

Again, weird that this is a thing, when the main difference between the series and our world is that ASOIAF features a royal lineage of sibling marriages (ew), and the current Queen for most of the books has been sleeping with her twin brother.

(Also, OP, was it you who was cheering for Jon/Sansa upthread? So incest is OK, but adultery is beyond the pale? :ack: )

Anyway, this is the wrong series for moralists or those looking for romances to aspire to. It's just so weird to me that the thread is about decrying Rhaenys' sleeping around, and not at all upset that she's sleeping with her own brother!

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I don't know you guys, but I never considered R/A/V romantic but highly sexy/erotic.

Romantic were, in a way, Naerys and Daemon (who I'm sure never were sexual lovers), and probably also were Egg and BB.

[Forever May]

So yes, it is absolutely realistic that Aegon and his sisters were aware of difficulties conceiving. While Visenya used magic, Rhaenys may or may not have shared her bed with others. Get over it. It's not real life, and it's not your marriage in question. Why anyone has more of an issue with adultery than incest is strange to me.

Are you aware of what things like "bloodright" actually mean? Seating a bastard on the throne is an insult to the very foundations of Westeros. The highborn are thus named not because they are bastards...

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Also, we have no idea about the full marital arrangement. For all we know, Visenya could have been sharing her bed with Rhaenys, too. Maybe Rhaenys liked having sex more than her siblings did -- different people have different sex drives. It's all very complex.

Rhaenys and Aegon were sexual beasts. When they weren't having sex with each other, they went and looked for others. Apparently. But about Rhaenys is a rumour. Aegon did look for Visenya when he was not with Rhaenys... maybe he was cursed. If he didn't have his penis inside someone, he could DIEEEE.

[Forever May]

First, they aren't the first marriage who has that kind of arrangement. Elaria and Oberyn (while not exactly a marriage, although they are in everything but on paper), are ok. with experimenting sexually. We don't know if Elia also sleeps with other guys, but if she did, doesn't look like Oberyn has a problem. That is not cheating, that's how they relationship works. Some couples like to swing, for instance. It's their choice.

Elaria is a bastard, last name Sand. Theirs was a relationship for pleasure, not a serious marriage. I don't like it any more for what it is, but it certainly isn't the same thing anyway so it doesn't matter.

Now, we don't know what kind of arrangement A had with his sisters. If anything, Aegon was honest. Instead of simply having an affair with Rhaenys, he married her. That doesn't mean he never ever had sex with her before this. We also don' t know how Visenya feel about it. So, it's very complicated. The important thing is that he loved her deeply. And at the end, she decided to have a child with him. I think Rhaenys would be smart enough to know she got pregnant by a guy who wasn't her husband, and she probably had little reasons to cuckold him.

Now I think you're making up excuses. You start the post mentioning "morals" and then go into this. Assuming Aegon was shooting blanks, for example, and Rhaenys wanted a child, you'd imagine she might have employed a secret lover. A handsome fellow whom she likes and looks like Aegon, preferably without a tongue (it could be removed). Since this is not what happened, the story we are given is very different. If Aegon consented, he was immoral in that. If Rhaenys committed wanton adultery, that is even worse. And at no point would any of this be acceptable to the Westerosi nobility if they found out. It is a complete scandal no matter which way you look at it.

[Forever May]

That's precisely the reason I dislike all the Rhaenys bashing in this thread.

Aegon said, "Rhaenys, my love, I heard a disturbing rumor about you in a tavern the other night... a man... a young bard... he was bragging about... he attested to the flavor of your... um... "

"Of my lamprey pie?" Rhaenys ventured.

Aegon took a step towards her and laid a hand on her swelling belly. "It's just... my child."

Rhaenys smiled. "Don't worry, my love. He'll be the finest dragon rider the realm has yet seen!"

"He will?" Aegon wanted to believe.

"Yes, silly," Rhaenys toyed with him, "Even half an eel can ride a dragon."

[Forever May]

Even aside from that there is an open cultural acceptance in Westeros of men sleeping around while married. Should we just uncritically accept this and act like that even if Rhaenys were sleeping around without Aegon's knowledge that she's some sort of singular moral offender?

There's a difference when men sleep around. I am not excusing it, by the way. I would not stay with a man who cheated on me any less than I would with a woman who did it. But the thing is, men don't get pregnant and derail entire dynasties built on fragile bloodlines!

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

There's a difference when men sleep around. I am not excusing it, by the way. I would not stay with a man who cheated on me any less than I would with a woman who did it. But the thing is, men don't get pregnant and derail entire dynasties built on fragile bloodlines!

I guess my main point here is so what? Who really cares about bloodlines and dynasties? Aegon's actual dynasty clearly wasn't derailed, what with existing for almost 300 years, and Aenys still possessed whatever magical blood he needed to be a dragonrider. There seems to be some importance to bloodlines in the story, yes, but as outisiders why should we care? Even further, why should disrupting bloodlines be considered a serious moral offense?

[Forever May]

(Also, OP, was it you who was cheering for Jon/Sansa upthread? So incest is OK, but adultery is beyond the pale? :ack: )

Anyway, this is the wrong series for moralists or those looking for romances to aspire to. It's just so weird to me that the thread is about decrying Rhaenys' sleeping around, and not at all upset that she's sleeping with her own brother!

You are confused as to my moral beliefs. I support liberal marriage customs, such as polygamy, two men marrying, two women marrying, so on. And likewise, incest doesn't really bother me. My whole point is, love isn't a sin. But adultery is, because it spits on love. Of course, if both partners are consenting, it is despicable but entirely their choice. Cheating on a lover without their consent is something else entirely.