Disillusioned with Targaryens (Rhaenys as an adulteress)

[The silver dragon]

i would also be quite sad if that were the case.

not cause i'm sexist but it makes house Targaryen lose A Lot of badass points.

other house have cool historic figures like Theon stark, or the grey king, or god's grief,

but which legendary badass king ancestor does house targaryen have if not Aegon? who got a frigging calendar named after him.

[SeanF]

Well, OP, you may remind to yourself that Rhaenys died a horrible death. May be you'll feel better. :dunno:

Hopefully not, but I fear you're right. By all accounts, the Ullers are animals.

[teemo]

LordVarys makes a good point - it's a little suspicious that after being with his wives for so long that he could only produce two sons.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Visenya (and Rhaenys) would have been completely brain dead if they did not want to have a son by Aegon. And in Visenya's case it would have been completely at odds with her later behavior, as she was trying to push Maegor's claim over Aenys', suggesting that she would actually have been pretty happy if her son had been the elder, as this would have pretty much put her in the better position...

Not every woman wants to be a mother. If indeed Visenya enjoyed being a warrior, and Rhaenys enjoyed having fun, then a child is not something they would want yet. And Aegon could not force them. R and V definitely had more freedom than the average woman in Westeros. Also, Children are not only made to continue a dynasty but to make alliances. Aegon was marrying into his own house.

Why the hell should Rhaenys use birth control when she actually needed to deliver Aegon an heir? That makes no sense, even if she had multiple affairs.

That's my point. If she had affairs, she HAD to use birth control. Otherwise, she would be having some stranger's kid.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

i would also be quite sad if that were the case.

not cause i'm sexist but it makes house Targaryen lose A Lot of badass points.

other house have cool historic figures like Theon stark, or the grey king, or god's grief,

but which legendary badass king ancestor does house targaryen have if not Aegon? who got a frigging calendar named after him.

Why, why would House Targaryen loose a lot of Badass points if Rhaenys had affairs?? Or are you thinking Aegon himself looses badass points for having low sperm count? (if indeed he did) so a man's badass quota is directly linked to his sperm producing abilities is it?

Are you of the opinion men loose their masculinity if they get a vasectomy? I know plenty of fools people who do think like that mind. Or are you calling him less badass because his wife supposedly cheated, in which case wtf does that have to do with his battle prowess or his political achievements? etc??

How does the whole house loose badass points exactly?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I kinda think that perhaps JonCon's Beard has a good point that Rhaenys used moon tea. Im not sure i buy the Aegon was sterile thing yet.

You, you are sharing my brain again.

I really hope so. If the OP is genuine, im gonna side-eye the fuck out of them.

Yup, and cheers. :)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The badass genes are more likely from Visenya, and she didn't carry on the line.

It doesn't matter, though. I don't care whose crotch Daemon Targaryen came from, for instance. Dude was a badass. Sadly, those genes were later contaminated by Aegon IV. I reaaaaally hope it's true that Aemon was Daeron's father.

[The silver dragon]

Why, why would House Targaryen loose a lot of Badass points if Rhaenys had affairs?? Or are you thinking Aegon himself looses badass points for having low sperm count? (if indeed he did) so a man's badass quota is directly linked to his sperm producing abilities is it?

Are you of the opinion men loose their masculinity if they get a vasectomy? I know plenty of fools people who do think like that mind. Or are you calling him less badass because his wife supposedly cheated, in which case wtf does that have to do with his battle prowess or his political achievements? etc??

How does the whole house loose badass points exactly?

name one really cool conquering badass king (bedsides daemon) that the current line of house targaryen is descended from.

can't name any? then their your reason. if instead of being descended from aegon the dragon who got a calender named after him, but some random unremarkable singer then they as a house are less badass by definition. and lest face visenya was the more badass of the two sisters. so the fact that other lord paramounts are descended from demi gods lore wise, while house targ is Rhaenys plus random dude takes away from there house in general.

[Lord Varys]

JonCon's Red Beard,

come on. I shortly entertained the idea that the warrior-woman Visenya did not want to be a mother, but it doesn't make any sense. Not for Visenya and not for Rhaenys. No one said that Visenya/Rhaenys would have to give birth to as many children as Alysanne or Alyssa Velaryon, but only one child per wife in a decade-long polygamous marriage... Really?

As I've said earlier, after the Conquest Aegon and his sister-wives were at once desperately in need of heirs to continue the rule of the dynasty. Conceiving an heir would have been of paramount importance, more important than conquering Dorne, more important than anything. Living in a feudal world, both Visenya and Rhaenys would have known that, and acted accordingly.

But Aenys was only born seven years after the Conquest, when Rhaenys' fertility was no longer as good as it would have been in her twenties (Visenya was 27 in 2 BC, Aegon 26, and Rhaenys 25). Should we thus assume Aegon and her did not try to conceive any children in the seven years prior to Aenys' conception? Or that Rhaenys wanted to enjoy her life first only to become a mother when it would become more difficult for her, all the while not knowing whether her brother-husband may die in war or of sickness?

That makes no sense whatsoever. Especially in the light of the fact that Rhaenys and Visenya co-ruled Westeros with Aegon, fully well knowing what would happen if Aegon died without an heir. They did not only need an heir to succeed to the Iron Throne, but also additional dragonriders to continue to cow the Lords of the Realm into submission. Riderless Balerion or Meraxes would not exactly terrify anyone...

Sure, if Aegon had died prematurely, Rhaenys/Visenya could have seized the Iron Throne in their own name, but upon their death the Targaryens would risk lose everything, especially if both sisters would have been incapable of conceiving children at that point, or if Visenya and Rhaenys had both taken husbands from outside the family.

[SeanF]

name one really cool conquering badass king (bedsides daemon) that the current line of house targaryen is descended from.

can't name any? then their your reason. if instead of being descended from aegon the dragon who got a calender named after him, but some random unremarkable singer then they as a house are less badass by definition. and lest face visenya was the more badass of the two sisters. so the fact that other lord paramounts are descended from demi gods lore wise, while house targ is Rhaenys plus random dude takes away from there house in general.

It depends who the random dude is.

[Lord Varys]

Actually, the whole mummers thing with Rhaenys could be a hint to Varys and Aegon, with Aegon having just 'some random woman' as mother.

If Aenys can ascend to the Iron Throne and effectively found the Targaryen dynasty, so can Aegon, even if he is not Rhaegar's son...

[Aemond's Eye]

The badass genes are more likely from Visenya, and she didn't carry on the line.

It doesn't matter, though. I don't care whose crotch Daemon Targaryen came from, for instance. Dude was a badass. Sadly, those genes were later contaminated by Aegon IV. I reaaaaally hope it's true that Aemon was Daeron's father.

I don't. Aemon was likely a surrogate father of sorts, but he literally died protecting his King despite his brother's disrespect to him and Naerys; he'd also defended Naerys' honour. I don't want Daeron to be Aemon's bastard. Daeron was clearly more influenced by his uncle and mother anyway.

[Lord Varys]

It is all but confirmed that Daeron II was Aegon's son. In fact, that should even be the case from a story-telling point of view, as it would really highlight and reinforce the Unworthy's unworthiness. If Daeron was really not his son, he would have been justified in his actions, at least to a degree, but this would be really surprising, as nothing suggests that Aegon ever cared about what was right, good, or true...

[lojzelote]

name one really cool conquering badass king (bedsides daemon) that the current line of house targaryen is descended from.

can't name any? then their your reason. if instead of being descended from aegon the dragon who got a calender named after him, but some random unremarkable singer then they as a house are less badass by definition. and lest face visenya was the more badass of the two sisters. so the fact that other lord paramounts are descended from demi gods lore wise, while house targ is Rhaenys plus random dude takes away from there house in general.

The lords paramount are descended from demi-gods, really?

[jon stark I]

I really don't understand why people love them so much really.They are marrying brother to sister sometimes they make their dragons eat their relatives or their servants, they had multiple uprisings in 300 years then North or Vale had in their entire time,they were slavers(valyrians were and they are valyrian), I mean they are just bullies.They have the muscle so they threaten the others to kneel or bleed.I personally hate bullies and Targeryans are the top class.

[Annara Snow]

i would also be quite sad if that were the case.

not cause i'm sexist but it makes house Targaryen lose A Lot of badass points.

other house have cool historic figures like Theon stark, or the grey king, or god's grief,

but which legendary badass king ancestor does house targaryen have if not Aegon?

Rhaenys.

[Annara Snow]

I'm not sure what occurs from 1st generation incest, but offspring produced from incest are known in nature to be less fertile than their non-incestuous counterparts. I don't think that Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys were producted of incest themselves, but given that genetics plays a role in fertility in this way, it might be that Aegon had difficulty producing an heir because genetics played against him.

Wait, really? I've never heard of that. Why would descendants of incestoust unions be less fertile? I don't know if there is a recessive gene for low fertility (I'm not aware of it?), but if it's not running in the family, there's no reason why inbreeding would increase it.

[lojzelote]

I really don't understand why people love them so much really.They are marrying brother to sister sometimes they make their dragons eat their relatives or their servants, they had multiple uprisings in 300 years then North or Vale had in their entire time,they were slavers(valyrians were and they are valyrian), I mean they are just bullies.They have the muscle so they threaten the others to kneel or bleed.I personally hate bullies and Targeryans are the top class.

Because they add spice to the story? Imagine reading a story full of people like Ned and Davos. It would make for a wonderful world, but also a seriously boring story. I take the histories of Roman emperors over those of medieval saints any day. Reading about the Targaryens is like reading about real historical kings and queens with magic in the mix. If you read about real history, few real monarchs were really good people, but one can admire them or be fascinated with them all the same.

[Annara Snow]

name one really cool conquering badass king (bedsides daemon) that the current line of house targaryen is descended from.

can't name any? then their your reason. if instead of being descended from aegon the dragon who got a calender named after him, but some random unremarkable singer then they as a house are less badass by definition. and lest face visenya was the more badass of the two sisters.

Rhaenys was also pretty damn badass. What, you need to enjoy war to be badass? Or to use magic? For that matter, the latter would not apply to Aegon, and we don't even know to what extent he enjoyed fighting.

In fact, I consider it more likely that Rhaenyra's sons are Laenor's than that Aenys' is Aegon's son. Nothing suggests that Jace, Luke, and Joff resemble Ser Harwin, and both Rhaenyra and Laenor have non-Valyrian ancestors (Rhaenyra the whole Arryn line up to her grandfather, Lord Rodrik, and Laenor the Baratheon/Durrandon line up to Jocelyn and Rhaenys along with whoever houses the Velaryons married into when they could get a Targaryen bride).

You're really clutching at straws with the Rhaenyra thing. It's obvious that the kids were supposed to look like Harwin Strong. If Harwin Strong looked nothing like Jace, Luke and Joffrey, there would have been no rumors about him being the father, or at least they would not be so persistent. Everybody knew what he looked like, just as they knew that the kids, Rhaenyra and Laenor looked like. The reason why GRRM doesn't mention that Harwin was not only big and strong but also dark haired and pug-nosed, was because he doesn't have to spell absolutely everything. The idea that Harwin had, say, red hair and a straight nose, but people still used the kids' looks as proof he was the father, makes no sense.

It's pretty obviously hinted in all sorts of ways that Jace, Luke and Joffrey were Rhaenyra's children by Harwin, and that Laenor was fully aware and OK with it, as the arrangement suited both of them. I'd be incredibly surprised if Rhaenyra and Laenor ever even had sex (other than in Mushroom's hilarious sex fantasies). If Laenor and Rhaenyra were OK with having sex occasionally just to produce an heir, I imagine he would have wanted a biological child of his own as heir, but he obviously preferred the arrangement they had.

Actually, the whole mummers thing with Rhaenys could be a hint to Varys and Aegon, with Aegon having just 'some random woman' as mother.

If Aenys can ascend to the Iron Throne and effectively found the Targaryen dynasty, so can Aegon, even if he is not Rhaegar's son...

That's... very curious and flawed logic, to say the least. Aegon doesn't just have just one random parent, neither of his parents are who he thinks/claims he is.

[Lord Varys]

Annara,

I'm just saying that it is not really confirmed that Rhaenyra's sons look like Harwin, they just don't look like Rhaenyra or Laenor. I'm not saying I believe that Rhaenyra's sons are not Harwin's, I'm simply pointing out that they (or at least some of them) may, in fact, be Laenor's because both Laenor and Rhaenyra had non-Valyrian ancestors.

I used that example because pretty much everyone seems to confirmed that 'Rhaenyra committed adultery' and 'Rhaenyra gave birth to bastards' but very few people seem to be willing that Aegon and Rhaenys may have done pretty much the same thing as Laenor and Rhaenyra - Laenor did not want to father any children, and Aegon could not, which is why both Rhaenys and Rhaenyra had to come up with a different way to continue the Targaryen line.

I think a lot of people seem to be consciously (and unconsciously) biased against 'Rhaenyra the slut' (being female) whereas 'Aegon the Great' (being male) cannot be possibly have been sterile and/or a cuckold.

As to the Aegon thing:

The point there was that Varys/Illyrio may very well have used a random woman with Valyrian features to create a Targaryen, just as Rhaenys did, instead of using Varys' long-lost sister or something like that. Aegon could still have a drop of dragon blood through Illyrio, but if he may have gotten his looks from a parent who merely looked Targaryen.