Disillusioned with Targaryens (Rhaenys as an adulteress)

[SeanF]

Charles Phipps,

Good catch. The Books of Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles are a very big inspiration for the Targaryens' history, IMHO, along with Tacitus and Suetonius.

[SeanF]

At this point I am really inclined to agree.

I don't feed trolls so I'll be stepping away from the thread.

I disagree with the O/P, but still think it's been a good thread.

[C.T. Phipps]

This is complete nonsense. Yes marriage is for bloodlines, all the more reason why women cannot sleep around, mother a bastard and confuse the entire process. Are you forgetting why the War of Five Kings started? Ned died because he learned of bastardry, which brought the North to war. Stannis went to war because he learned of bastardry. And it is safe to assume that Littlefinger had Jon Arryn poisoned to keep the bastardry secret for a little while, or something, I don't know, but bastardry was involved. Not to mention the fact that Bran was pushed because he saw how a bastard was made.

Gods you can't just put a bard's bastard on the throne and call it highborn and expect the realm to kneel. Where do you people get these ideas?

The thing is, Stannis is the ONLY ONE who is rebelling because of bastardry.

Balon, Renly, and Robb are all rebelling for other reasons.

At best, it would still have been the War of Three Kings if Joffery had been legitimate.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

In reply to SeanF.

Its been interesting, But the way he/she ignores half the post and repeats the same refusal to acknowledge their interpretation is not the only one possible is getting very tired.

[C.T. Phipps]

Charles Phipps,

Good catch. The Books of Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles are a very big inspiration for the Targaryens' history, IMHO, along with Tacitus and Suetonius.

Part of why I like the book is that while it's probable that people like Mushroom are telling the truth because Westeros is just that kind of hellhole, it's equally possible a lot of this was slander.

In a very real way, I think of the Targaryens as the Addams Family. They're very-very weird.

You can't judge them, though, because they're all very loving. Orys, for example, is treated as a genuine member of the family despite his bastardry.

Which is what the Storm King failed to realize.

Did Rhaenys cheat on her husband? Very possibly. It's also possible it's a vicious rumor designed to de-legitimize her heirs.

[Forever May]

In reply to SeanF.

Its been interesting, But the way he/she ignores half the post and repeats the same refusal to acknowledge their interpretation is not the only one possible is getting very tired.

I read everything you said, even if I didn't reply to it all. I took it in. But you're no better than what you accuse me of. You believe a persons selfish desires justify adultery amd will not compromise on this no matter what I say, where as I believe a person ought to put their reputation and honor first. It is a conflict of views that cannot be reconciled by debate. Society judges us however. And they do it harshly. A prudent person should keep that in mind before allowing their base desires to drive their actions.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

No, You have made some pretty wide assumptions about what I believe.

I believe we should take all the potential factors into account before judging somebody. That's what I have been saying all along. That there could be various different scenario's which led the Rhaenys being unfaithful. IF indeed she was at all. What I have been advocating for is Not jumping to conclusions and tarring someone as a "harlot" because of rumours which have no viability and which come at a time when people around her had reason to spread them.

[Lord Varys]

An arranged marriage is not the same as the marriages we do know. If love and the happiness of an individual person matter, adultery should be the common thing in pretty much any arranged marriage in which the spouses are not actually in love with each other. Men fortunately could do that all the time without ever facing serious repercussions in a patriarchal society, but women could not (which is not positive in my opinion).

And a modern-day marriage should only have problems with 'adultery' if the spouses had agreed that affairs and extramarital were off limits - in that case, it would truly be 'cheating'. But as far as I know that's not the case in every marriage, and must not necessarily have been the case in Rhaenys' and Aegon's case.

Again, there is no proof for Rhaenys having lots of affairs, and if there was an affair, it was most likely a means to conceive a child to succeed Aegon, as he apparently could not father a child himself. In the latter case, this would have been essentially 'adultery in the service of the king', done with the full approval and support of Aegon.

[Aemond's Eye]

An arranged marriage is not the same as the marriages we do know. If love and the happiness of an individual person matter, adultery should be the common thing in pretty much any arranged marriage in which the spouses are not actually in love with each other. Men fortunately could do that all the time without ever facing serious repercussions in a patriarchal society, but women could not (which is not positive in my opinion).

And a modern-day marriage should only have problems with 'adultery' if the spouses had agreed that affairs and extramarital were off limits - in that case, it would truly be 'cheating'. But as far as I know that's not the case in every marriage, and must not necessarily have been the case in Rhaenys' and Aegon's case.

Again, there is no proof for Rhaenys having lots of affairs, and if there was an affair, it was most likely a means to conceive a child to succeed Aegon, as he apparently could not father a child himself. In the latter case, this would have been essentially 'adultery in the service of the king', done with the full approval and support of Aegon.

In short, you can't really apply 21st century concepts of marriage, love and morality to what is supposed to be a medieval-esque setting. And even if you could, you can't always apply your morality to other people - morals are subjective, not absolute.

[Lord Varys]

I'd think it is even stricter: We cannot even apply 'normal medieval marital morals' to an arranged, incestuous, polygamous marriage among siblings. Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys were siblings as well as spouses, they had a family relationship long before they become spouses and eventual monarchs. This has to be kept in mind when discussing all that. Rhaenys and Visenya were co-rulers not consorts. Assume Rhaenys was caught with a lover, she would not have been treated the way Cersei was in ADwD. Not just because she had power of her own and a dragon, but also because she was Aegon's (and Visenya's) sister, and they would not have wanted to humiliate her that way.

And we also do know that some monarchs needed assistance to get impregnated. In fact, isn't the whole hemophilia thing that began to trouble the Russian dynasty supposed to a sign that something fishy went on with Queen Victoria (or her parents)?

[SeanF]

Part of why I like the book is that while it's probable that people like Mushroom are telling the truth because Westeros is just that kind of hellhole, it's equally possible a lot of this was slander.

In a very real way, I think of the Targaryens as the Addams Family. They're very-very weird.

You can't judge them, though, because they're all very loving. Orys, for example, is treated as a genuine member of the family despite his bastardry.

Which is what the Storm King failed to realize.

Did Rhaenys cheat on her husband? Very possibly. It's also possible it's a vicious rumor designed to de-legitimize her heirs.

Really, I think we need to find out a lot more about Aegon, Rhaenys, and Visenya, before coming to any firm conclusions about them. All that TWOIAF does is to whet the appetite.

I think we can agree that Orys Baratheon was a piece of work (dying happy as the hands and feet of his enemy's son dangled above his bed, wanting to imprison Prince Nymorr's daughter in a brothel).

[The Wolf Lord's Daughter]

Really, I think we need to find out a lot more about Aegon, Rhaenys, and Visenya, before coming to any firm conclusions about them. All that TWOIAF does is to whet the appetite.

I think we can agree that Orys Baratheon was a piece of work (dying happy as the hands and feet of his enemy's son dangled above his bed, wanting to imprison Prince Nymorr's daughter in a brothel).

Well, it was Lord Oakheart who suggested Deria be sent to a brothel. Orys and Visenya were just said to have become mad. But yeah, the whole dying happy while looking at his enemies feet was more than a little weird and the main reason people suggest Orys had been poisoned.

[Aemond's Eye]

Well, it was Lord Oakheart who suggested Deria be sent to a brothel. Orys and Visenya were just said to have become mad. But yeah, the whole dying happy while looking at his enemies feet was more than a little weird and the main reason people suggest Orys had been poisoned.

I didn't think it was that weird. He'd lost his sword hand and effectively been maimed and humiliated, and was enacting his revenge on the Dornish tenfold. It's barbaric by 21st century standards, but it's not something that would seem that surprising if I read it in a medieval history textbook.

[Panos Targaryen]

All these pages later, and the same double standard goes on. Again, I've seen Robert called a cheating asshole, a man-whore, a brute, a sexist pig etc etc, and no one bats a fucking eye. I'm not saying that calling women harlots and whores is a good thing to do, but come on guys, at least do us the common courtesy of admitting your bias.

If Rhaenys wasn't a woman this conversation would VERY different. In Robert-Cersei threads you won't even hear the "but Robert didn't love Cersei, he should be able to have sex with whoever he wants" (not talking about his physical and psychological abuse of Cersei of course, just the cheating). At least nowhere near how much it's used here to excuse Rhaenys' hypothetical infidelity.

And before you say it's different because women are oppressed in Westerosi society, remember that Rhaenys was a dragonrider, she was chosen by Aegon to occasionally command his forces, fought in battle alongside him, and she and her sister did most of the governing while Aegon was trying to unite the realm. We're not talking about your average blushing lady here, she was a freaking badass, a conqueror as much as Aegon was. And by the way, from what I saw from above posts, I won't stand for being called a sexist, I don't believe women are inferior to men in anyway etc etc. Not that it would matter to you people of course.

[Aemond's Eye]

Have you seen Robert called these things by the same posters that you think are defending Rhaenys? I ask because if not then it's a bit presumptuous to accuse anyone of gender bias.

[Panos Targaryen]

Have you seen Robert called these things by the same posters that you think are defending Rhaenys? I ask because if not then it's a bit presumptuous to accuse anyone of gender bias.

It's something I've perceived in the forum in general, a kind of general impression of the consensus (if there is such a thing here, asoiaf is nothing if not divisive :p). Hence why I didn't actually accuse anyone in specific.

[C.T. Phipps]

I read everything you said, even if I didn't reply to it all. I took it in. But you're no better than what you accuse me of. You believe a persons selfish desires justify adultery amd will not compromise on this no matter what I say, where as I believe a person ought to put their reputation and honor first. It is a conflict of views that cannot be reconciled by debate. Society judges us however. And they do it harshly. A prudent person should keep that in mind before allowing their base desires to drive their actions.

If I may enter into this conversation, I think the larger question is how bad of a crime do you think adultery is and what level of it is it when you're a man versus a woman. It's very possible Aegon the Conqueror didn't care about his wife having sex outside of his bedroom, especially since he's sharing his bed with another woman as well (their sister no less).

While this is an alien mindset to some, a big thing about the Targaryens is they have a morality different from the pseudo-European norms of Westeros. It's not just the incest but also the fact, until later generations started absorbing Andal values, Aegon wasn't really the King so much as all three of them ruled as equals.

If Aegon doesn't mind, why should we?

[C.T. Phipps]

All these pages later, and the same double standard goes on. Again, I've seen Robert called a cheating asshole, a man-whore, a brute, a sexist pig etc etc, and no one bats a fucking eye. I'm not saying that calling women harlots and whores is a good thing to do, but come on guys, at least do us the common courtesy of admitting your bias.

If Rhaenys wasn't a woman this conversation would VERY different. In Robert-Cersei threads you won't even hear the "but Robert didn't love Cersei, he should be able to have sex with whoever he wants" (not talking about his physical and psychological abuse of Cersei of course, just the cheating). At least nowhere near how much it's used here to excuse Rhaenys' hypothetical infidelity.

And before you say it's different because women are oppressed in Westerosi society, remember that Rhaenys was a dragonrider, she was chosen by Aegon to occasionally command his forces, fought in battle alongside him, and she and her sister did most of the governing while Aegon was trying to unite the realm. We're not talking about your average blushing lady here, she was a freaking badass, a conqueror as much as Aegon was. And by the way, from what I saw from above posts, I won't stand for being called a sexist, I don't believe women are inferior to men in anyway etc etc. Not that it would matter to you people of course.

Actually, I'll see you Panos Targaryen and your Robert Baratheon, and raise you an Oberyn Martell. Robert Baratheon and Rhaegar Targaryen get a lot of **** from me because they cheated on their wives with impunity because they're men in a Medieval Western society. However, Oberyn Martell doesn't get any crap from me despite the fact he's in a common-law marriage arrangement with his spouse.

Oberyn sleeps around a great deal and so does his consort and you know what, good for them. The two of them are happy with the arrangement and I don't see anything wrong with it.

What I take issue with is the assumption Rhaenys is doing this behind Aegon's back in the first place.

If it helps your opinion, I think Cersei cheating on Jaime with Lancel and the Kettlebacks is revolting. Clearly, he expected fidelity outside of her relationship with Robert (which was involuntary).

[Aemond's Eye]

Actually, I'll see you Panos Targaryen and your Robert Baratheon, and raise you an Oberyn Martell. Robert Baratheon and Rhaegar Targaryen get a lot of **** from me because they cheated on their wives with impunity because they're men in a Medieval Western society. However, Oberyn Martell doesn't get any crap from me despite the fact he's in a common-law marriage arrangement with his spouse.

Oberyn sleeps around a great deal and so does his consort and you know what, good for them. The two of them are happy with the arrangement and I don't see anything wrong with it.

What I take issue with is the assumption Rhaenys is doing this behind Aegon's back in the first place.

If it helps your opinion, I think Cersei cheating on Jaime with Lancel and the Kettlebacks is revolting. Clearly, he expected fidelity outside of her relationship with Robert (which was involuntary).

Cersei's relationship with Robert was not involuntary. She very much wanted to marry him as much as she wanted to be queen. She hardened towards him early doors in the marriage when she realised that she'd never replace Lyanna - all the while there's no hint that her relationship with Jaime had ever ended - but that doesn't mean she was forced into the marriage.

[C.T. Phipps]

Cersei's relationship with Robert was not involuntary. She very much wanted to marry him as much as she wanted to be queen. She hardened towards him early doors in the marriage when she realised that she'd never replace Lyanna - all the while there's no hint that her relationship with Jaime had ever ended - but that doesn't mean she was forced into the marriage.

You can have buyer's remorse. This may shock you.

If she wanted to marry him and changed her mind, it becomes involuntary.

But yes, I'm saying that Cersei is an unsympathetic adulteress because she cheated...on Jaimie.