Disillusioned with Targaryens (Rhaenys as an adulteress)

[Skinner]

You can have buyer's remorse. This may shock you.

If she wanted to marry him and changed her mind, it becomes involuntary.

But yes, I'm saying that Cersei is an unsympathetic adulteress because she cheated...on Jaimie.

DUN DUM DUN!!!!!

Because Cersei has definitely had a healthy relationship at least once in her life..

[Aemond's Eye]

You can have buyer's remorse. This may shock you.

If she wanted to marry him and changed her mind, it becomes involuntary.

But yes, I'm saying that Cersei is an unsympathetic adulteress because she cheated...on Jaimie.

Shockingly, I have heard of buyer's remorse. Us Scots have us some edumacation. ;) But buyer's remorse isn't the same as the marriage being involuntary - it's unhappy, not involuntary. Divorce isn't common in Westeros, but if Cersei was offered this or even to just return to CR, she would decline - because she covets the status the marriage provides. Young Cersei coveted the warrior king Robert and the status; she wasn't setting aside her lover, Jaime, though. (So even a gentle Robert would have been cheated on - he just may have had one turborn heir.) Not quite so young Cersei covets the status still.

Every relationship Cersei has is based on what someone can do for her and discarding those who offer little; she's a narcissist.

[Forever May]

No, You have made some pretty wide assumptions about what I believe.

I believe we should take all the potential factors into account before judging somebody. That's what I have been saying all along. That there could be various different scenario's which led the Rhaenys being unfaithful. IF indeed she was at all. What I have been advocating for is Not jumping to conclusions and tarring someone as a "harlot" because of rumours which have no viability and which come at a time when people around her had reason to spread them.

I made an allowance for the possibility that the rumors were false earlier on in the thread. Twice, I think. The argument I put forward was indeed under the assumption that the rumors were true. Of course nothing I said is relevant if it was mere slander. I know that. But my last post is accurate when you say, "That there could be various different scenario's which led the Rhaenys being unfaithful." There are always scenarios, excuses, but it is always selfish desires in the end. They don't change or justify adultery.

As for your theory that this is a huge conspiracy against Rhaenys because people are insulted by the prospect of a powerful woman, that's just typical. Not everything that works against women is an evil plan by the patriarchy. Although if the rumors are political tools and thus false, fair enough. But if they are true, then they were earned.

Have you seen Robert called these things by the same posters that you think are defending Rhaenys? I ask because if not then it's a bit presumptuous to accuse anyone of gender bias.

Panos is not presumptuous. I am in other threads labeling Robert a womanizer and even going so far as to say there was a lace of justice in Cersei murdering him. I do blame him for the poor quality of marriage between those two and his womanizing is at the heart of that failure. It's just another example of why adultery is not a good idea, because your wife might get mad and kill you for it!

If I may enter into this conversation, I think the larger question is how bad of a crime do you think adultery is and what level of it is it when you're a man versus a woman. It's very possible Aegon the Conqueror didn't care about his wife having sex outside of his bedroom, especially since he's sharing his bed with another woman as well (their sister no less).

While this is an alien mindset to some, a big thing about the Targaryens is they have a morality different from the pseudo-European norms of Westeros. It's not just the incest but also the fact, until later generations started absorbing Andal values, Aegon wasn't really the King so much as all three of them ruled as equals.

If Aegon doesn't mind, why should we?

Well I already said if Aegon doesn't mind then I don't. It is still deplorable however. Yet the thing is, how can Aegon not mind? How does he know Aenys is his son if Rhaenys has been with other men? And if Aenys is a bastard, then it risks bringing about the ruin of their House if this is discovered. For all the "modern standards don't apply" going around, I have to agree. There is even more reason not to commit adultery in an arranged marriage, because the security of your House and indeed entire kingdom rests on your fidelity. And even if they made sure Rhaenys was drinking moon tea at any time she was with another man, so they are sure Aenys is Aegon's son, that still won't stop the rumors. When Aegon dies, he must surely be smart enough to know that if his heir was mothered by a promiscuous woman then the legitimacy of that son will be called into question, regardless of whether or not Aenys is a bastard.

Adultery is simply a weapon that can be used against you. And an effective one. So don't do it.

You can have buyer's remorse. This may shock you.

Ha ha ha, you're funny.

[Aemond's Eye]

I made an allowance for the possibility that the rumors were false earlier on in the thread. Twice, I think. The argument I put forward was indeed under the assumption that the rumors were true. Of course nothing I said is relevant if it was mere slander. I know that. But my last post is accurate when you say, "That there could be various different scenario's which led the Rhaenys being unfaithful." There are always scenarios, excuses, but it is always selfish desires in the end. They don't change or justify adultery.

As for your theory that this is a huge conspiracy against Rhaenys because people are insulted by the prospect of a powerful woman, that's just typical. Not everything that works against women is an evil plan by the patriarchy. Although if the rumors are political tools and thus false, fair enough. But if they are true, then they were earned.

Panos is not presumptuous. I am in other threads labeling Robert a womanizer and even going so far as to say there was a lace of justice in Cersei murdering him. I do blame him for the poor quality of marriage between those two and his womanizing is at the heart of that failure. It's just another example of why adultery is not a good idea, because your wife might get mad and kill you for it!

Well I already said if Aegon doesn't mind then I don't. It is still deplorable however. Yet the thing is, how can Aegon not mind? How does he know Aenys is his son if Rhaenys has been with other men? And if Aenys is a bastard, then it risks bringing about the ruin of their House if this is discovered. For all the "modern standards don't apply" going around, I have to agree. There is even more reason not to commit adultery in an arranged marriage, because the security of your House and indeed entire kingdom rests on your fidelity. And even if they made sure Rhaenys was drinking moon tea at any time she was with another man, so they are sure Aenys is Aegon's son, that still won't stop the rumors. When Aegon dies, he must surely be smart enough to know that if his heir was mothered by a promiscuous woman then the legitimacy of that son will be called into question, regardless of whether or not Aenys is a bastard.

Adultery is simply a weapon that can be used against you. And an effective one. So don't do it.

Ha ha ha, you're funny.

Aye, but you're hardly defending Queen Rhaenys. ;)

To be fair to Robert, Cersei went into the marriage with Jaime at close hand. We could believe that if Robert was the fairy tale knight then Cersei would not have been with Jaime, but given that Cersei is a narcissist I don't believe that. Robert & Cersei are the template for what marriage between nobles in Westeros is actually about - securing alliances and establishes dynasties. Whether the marriages are monogamous comes down to whatever the individuals involved agree amongst themselves - sometimes they are, sometimes one partner cheats, and sometimes they have an understanding about sleeping with other folk.

[Lord Varys]

Forever May,

come on, if Aegon, Rhaenys (and Visenya) were okay with extramarital affairs of either spouse, it is hardly your place to judge them for them. That's one of the possible scenarios we are talking about here. And if Rhaenys had only (an) affair(s) to conceive Aegon's heir then she is the founder of the Targaryen dynasty as we know it today, as all the Targaryen kings are descended from her, and her alone. Aegon would thank her for that as well, as only through her act of adultery could he portray himself as fertile man in front of the public.

I'm not following the Robert-Cersei discourse in this whole thing, but I'd of course say that Cersei was justified in cheating on Robert as he treated her like shit, and was also not faithful to his wife. Whether it was smart of Cersei to allow Jaime to father all her children is another matter - but one has to admit that it was a great (and fitting) payback.

[C.T. Phipps]

Well I already said if Aegon doesn't mind then I don't. It is still deplorable however. Yet the thing is, how can Aegon not mind? How does he know Aenys is his son if Rhaenys has been with other men? And if Aenys is a bastard, then it risks bringing about the ruin of their House if this is discovered. For all the "modern standards don't apply" going around, I have to agree. There is even more reason not to commit adultery in an arranged marriage, because the security of your House and indeed entire kingdom rests on your fidelity. And even if they made sure Rhaenys was drinking moon tea at any time she was with another man, so they are sure Aenys is Aegon's son, that still won't stop the rumors. When Aegon dies, he must surely be smart enough to know that if his heir was mothered by a promiscuous woman then the legitimacy of that son will be called into question, regardless of whether or not Aenys is a bastard.

Adultery is simply a weapon that can be used against you. And an effective one. So don't do it.

Aegon may not mind for multiple reasons. The thing is, we need to take a step back from the constant reinforcement of Westeros Andal-First Men values which the books give us: Bastards are horrible, Women come last, and Bloodlines above all. We've had that beaten into our head by EVERY character in the book save a few rare exceptions (from Dorne and the Wildlings) as part of the worldbuilding. Which is a great thing as it reinforces what is important to these people. However, we need to remember Aegon and his sister-wives aren't a part of this culture. They're Valyrians or, if you will, members of the independent nation of Dragonstone.

Aegon may not simply prioritize his direct patrinial descendant sitting on the iron throne, especially if it's his nephew either way. This is highly unlikely, even today in a sexually liberated society so I'll admit you raise a point, but it's possible Aegon was more interested in simply conquering Westeros for HIMSELF rather than establishing a dynasty which he can't continue. In the event he's sterile, he may be like Daenerys and is claiming the Kingdom for his House but leaving it to others to maintain. As far as Daeny knows, either way, she'll be the last of the Targaryens but she's still planning on conquering Westeros for the Targaryens.

Likewise, Ned Stark is violently protective of Jon Snow and non-threatened about him being a recognized bastard, even though it's very likely he's "just' his nephew.

One thing the book can't really discuss but there's hints about is also Aegon actually isn't in the Driver's Seat. Which would be AWESOME to speculate on. What if Visenya and his sister are actually the ones in control of the House? They seem to have ruled as equals but the Andals deferred to Aegon. It's possible Aegon let his sister have her lovers because he has no authority over her because she's every bit the ruler of the House that he is.

[Annara Snow]

Cersei's relationship with Robert was not involuntary. She very much wanted to marry him as much as she wanted to be queen. She hardened towards him early doors in the marriage when she realised that she'd never replace Lyanna - all the while there's no hint that her relationship with Jaime had ever ended - but that doesn't mean she was forced into the marriage.

That's not true. You seem to be confusing the books with the show. Book!Cersei never wanted to marry Robert and never liked him.

[Aemond's Eye]

That's not true. You seem to be confusing the books with the show. Book!Cersei never wanted to marry Robert and never liked him.

Yep, I have indeed.

[C.T. Phipps]

Yep, I have indeed.

I think Cersei wanted to be Queen enough she didn't mind marrying Robert.

But their relationship lasted until the wedding night, which ruined that.

[Aemond's Eye]

I think Cersei wanted to be Queen enough she didn't mind marrying Robert.

But their relationship lasted until the wedding night, which ruined that.

I'd gotten the show and books mixed up. She clearly didn't want to be married to him, like you originally posted. She wanted to be Queen, but Rhaegar's Queen. Robert calling her Lyanna probably killed off and possibility of her being his - and I think that ties back in with Rhaegar. (I still think she'd have been unfaithful and continued sleeping with and manipulating Jaime regardless though - she's a narcissist and fancies herself as Tywin: New & Improved.) She may have been able to make the most of it had Robert been kind to her, but I doubt it would have been a happy marriage regardless.

Teaches me to reply while watching a GofT repeat marathon.

[The silver dragon]

Aegon may not mind for multiple reasons. The thing is, we need to take a step back from the constant reinforcement of Westeros Andal-First Men values which the books give us: Bastards are horrible, Women come last, and Bloodlines above all. We've had that beaten into our head by EVERY character in the book save a few rare exceptions (from Dorne and the Wildlings) as part of the worldbuilding. Which is a great thing as it reinforces what is important to these people. However, we need to remember Aegon and his sister-wives aren't a part of this culture. They're Valyrians or, if you will, members of the independent nation of Dragonstone.

Aegon may not simply prioritize his direct patrinial descendant sitting on the iron throne, especially if it's his nephew either way. This is highly unlikely, even today in a sexually liberated society so I'll admit you raise a point, but it's possible Aegon was more interested in simply conquering Westeros for HIMSELF rather than establishing a dynasty which he can't continue. In the event he's sterile, he may be like Daenerys and is claiming the Kingdom for his House but leaving it to others to maintain. As far as Daeny knows, either way, she'll be the last of the Targaryens but she's still planning on conquering Westeros for the Targaryens.

Likewise, Ned Stark is violently protective of Jon Snow and non-threatened about him being a recognized bastard, even though it's very likely he's "just' his nephew.

One thing the book can't really discuss but there's hints about is also Aegon actually isn't in the Driver's Seat. Which would be AWESOME to speculate on. What if Visenya and his sister are actually the ones in control of the House? They seem to have ruled as equals but the Andals deferred to Aegon. It's possible Aegon let his sister have her lovers because he has no authority over her because she's every bit the ruler of the House that he is.

aegon is in the driver's seat.

When Volantis begged him to help reestablish valyria he refused and joined a war against them him only.

aegon dragon was older than both Vhagar or meraexs could have curb-stopped ether one of them.

it was aegon's decision to attack westeros and his alone as he made the map alone.

he was king she wasn't. the most she could have done if aegon mistreated was to run away. if she attempted rebellion 99% of the lord's would join aegon.

aegon definitely had the pant's in this relationship.

[Aemond's Eye]

I don't think it's as simple as anyone being the one dominant force in that triangular marriage. Relationships are usually more complex than one person 'wearing the pants' and one person not; factor in their existing sibling hierarchies and relationships, and I imagine it was a very complex relationship. We do know that he heeded their counsel; we do know that they crowned him; we do know that they also held court. They may have held it in his name when he wasn't present, but they were more co-rulers than Queen Consorts. At least more than any other Queen other than Alysanne.

[Til]

I think Aegon was clearly the King, but he had no problem delegating much of his authority to the two Queens. It said that he spent his time divided between traveling the realm to make stronger relationships with the lords, and staying on Dragonstone because he loved it there. Most of the day to day ruling was delegated to Visenya and Rhaenys. He clearly trusted their intelligence and ability to rule. But it seemed clear to me that at the end of the day, Aegon's decision was the final one.

As for Rhaenys and the possible parentage of Aenys, I need more evidence than, "Some people said Rhaenys slept around". Additionally, their whole theory is built on the idea that Aenys, as a kid, wasn't some glorious warrior child. One he grew up some, matured and became a dragonrider, the rumors stopped. Both ASoIaF and the real world have many, many examples of fathers and sons being different from each other. That's hardly evidence of anything.

Second, even if it were true, so what? Aegon's Conquest was just as much Visenya's Conquest and Rhaenys' Conquest. Considering the complete lack of children from either wife after having been married to Aegon for years, I'm more partial to the idea that Aegon was sterile, and his two children were from other means (pretty boytoy with Rhaenys, black magic with Visenya). I doubt Aegon would want his House to die out with him. Better to have some random Valyrian-looking sperm donor knock up Rhaenys, then raise the child as his own. The kid would still be a Targaryen by blood, and theoretically he'd be just as able a future king as any genetic son of Aegon. Granted, Aenys turned out to be a weakling, but I'd wager that's more to do with losing his mother at an early age than not having Aegon's genetic material (which is the same as Rhaenys', for what it's worth).

I feel the same way about Daeron II. If I were him, I'd much rather be the son of Aemon the Dragonknight than Aegon the Unworthy. Either way you're carrying the same damn genetics passed down from Viserys I and Larra Rogare. For reasons of Andal law I can definitely understand why Daeron would definitively say that he was Aegon's son (plus, he was. No way would pious Naerys and honorable Aemon trash their vows), but in terms of future generations of Targs, I'd much rather imagine I was descended from Aemon than Aegon.

[Lord Varys]

History written by men paints Aegon as the guy in charge. Whether this is truly the case we do not know.

[Til]

History written by men paints Aegon as the guy in charge. Whether this is truly the case we do not know.

True enough. Until GRRM gives us a point of view story taking place during Aegon's reign though (which I doubt will ever happen), it's all we have to go on.

I'll also point out the case of Lord Aegon and Lady Elaena, who jointly ruled Dragonstone. So it's not as if co-ruling is without precedent among the Targaryens.

[Lord Varys]

There were many co-ruling spouses among the Targaryens (Daenys, Elaena, Visenya/Rhaenys, Alysanne, and possibly Alyssa Velaryon - she accompanied Aenys on his progresses, and later became Maegor's arch-nemesis, it seems...), and Rhaenys and Visenya clearly wielded as much power openly as their brother-husband. However, we have also to keep in mind that they may have been calling the shots behind the scenes. It is obvious, I think, that Visenya and not Aegon was the champion of House Targaryen during her day and age. She founded the KG, she saved Aegon's life, she did most of the dirty work, etc. Aegon may have been more of a figurehead than the actual brain behind the dynasty. Most of the smart/determined ideas are not his despite the fact that he was a good tactician and quite charismatic.

He backed down and made peace with Dorne (Visenya would never have backed down), he was not clever enough to realize that he would have to unify the laws of the kingdoms to ensure that they would not try to revert to their previous independence etc.

We also do not know who was behind the whole Conquest idea. Was this truly Aegon's idea, as history seems to tell it? We do not know, but my guess is that this was at least a consensual decision of the siblings, as Aegon clearly would not have been able to succeed if Visenya and Rhaenys had actual opposed the whole idea behind the scenes.

[C.T. Phipps]

History written by men paints Aegon as the guy in charge. Whether this is truly the case we do not know.

One thing I like about this book is a lot of the story is "read between the lines" sort of clues. Aegon's sterility is one thing we have a lot of clues regarding, another is the fact Aegon doesn't appear to have been that involved in ruling or the conquest itself. He's touted as being the great conqueror but we have a bunch of examples of laws protecting women and other controversial decisions implemented by his sisters. In those laws, we see them acting as the rulers in Aegon's place.

[CosimaistheHottest]

I don't know necessarily about Aegon being sterile. In one of the first reads of Awoiaf, Aegon had many children with Rhaenys. Maegor even married a half sister who was later replaced by Ceryse Hightower. Maybe the other siblings met the chopping block to cut down of descendants and Martin didn't feel like killing them all off.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

But my last post is accurate when you say, "That there could be various different scenario's which led the Rhaenys being unfaithful." There are always scenarios, excuses, but it is always selfish desires in the end. They don't change or justify adultery.

And there is the thing, I am mature enough, sensible enough, and have enough humanity and compassion, decency, sense, and life experience to understand that this is simply not true.

[joluoto2]

Aegon can't have been sterile, since, well Maegor. And I don't think Visenya slept around. However I think we can agree that the Seed was not Strong (had two wives, but only two sons, one of them might not have been his, both sons born relatively late, after many many years of marriage).