Heresy 144 the Christmas edition

[Matthew.]

Aux contraire, I would argue that far from overly-complicating the story, revealing the Wall as a dividing line between the realms rather than a fortification resolves all sorts of practical questions - not least why is it so high when these "ancient Others" in the annals are no different from Craster's boys...

While I agree that the Wall as a dividing line between the realms of men and realms of magic makes sense, I think that explanation fits better for what the Wall has become, rather than as an explanation for its creation. After all, it's obvious that even during the NK's time men were on both sides of the Wall, and there were also Singers on both sides of the Wall until the arrival of the Andals.

If the Wall was a magical demarcation line, why in the world would the Singers ever agree to a division in which the God's Eye falls in the Realms of Men? IMO, it makes more sense if there came a point after the NK is ousted that House Stark and other northern families take control of the Wall, and decide there's no place for giants, Wildlings, Singers, and other 'unpleasant' things in the more orderly north that House Stark is trying to create; an attitude not dissimilar to the grey sheep of the Citadel. This would also go hand-in-hand with theories of House Stark burying ugly secrets from their past.

Furthermore, I'm really not seeing why it makes more sense that a magical demarcation line would need to be 700 feet high, as opposed to the Wall needing to be massive to keep out a horde of dead men and 'monsters' of ice. I think the default in-text explanation for why the Wall was built is perfectly valid-- though, as I've posted here before, I think the actual reason for the Wall may have had nothing to do with dividing territory, or even keeping the Others and wildlings out, but actually sits atop a fault (hinge), and is essentially acting as a massive magical ward against the magic disaster that caused the Long Night climate conditions.

[JRRStark]

Sorry, this is slightly off topic but I was hoping someone could answer a question I have, regarding this quote by Jaime (from aCoK, while talking to Cat in the Riverrun dungeons and having just told her how Brandon and Rickard were killed):

What is the "kindness he never did", and who loves him for it? (I am working on my latest crackpot, and trying to decide if Jaime will be featured in it... :))

Is it looking after Tyrion when he realy tricked him over his 'wife'

[wolfmaid7]

BC, this Heresy is fascinating, and I wonder if you-because I am slow on the uptake-could tie this Burden of the Starks back to what Rhaegar learned in that damn book. In other words, rather than a prophecy unique to the dragons, do we have any indication that he could have learned something of the North that made him want to take up a sword? Fulfill being a promised prince?

Going back to Drogon chewing on the "wierwood," (scene quoted in this thread earlier) and thinking about Rhaegar siezing on the North in some way...

I am either rambling, or generalizing, or both, but this edition is covering a lot of ground that touches on Lyanna, Jon, Ned, winter, secrets, hearts of winter and hearts of fire. If we agree that we cannot have Jon without Rhaegar and we agree that Rhaegar found out something life changing, what are the chances that Rhaegar learned what we are trying to noodle right now?

I'm suprised we aren't talking about this in detail because i find that so fascinating moreso because again there is a huge element of "glamours" being utilized there.Dany is hearing this beautiful music playing;filling the air and she sees the wizards as "they" want her to see them beautiful,bedazzled etc.But Drogon goes directly to the Weirwood and Ebony door attacking it which behind lays the true visage of the wizards "dead corpses controlled by a cold heart blue and corrupted".Westros may be the epicenter and the seat whereby these powers are tapped by sorcery.

I think Dany could take up that part. We have Red Priests in Volantis and Aemon proclaiming her to be the one saviour, who'll bring about an eternal Summer, which is just as bad as the Long Night. And she does have two uncontrollable Dragons, who are meant to be her Lightbringer.

I think Dany's part in this is different in that she is a very powerfl "tool" but a tool nevertheless.Jon thus far and this is a blessing has been fortunate in that he has not been made use of yet and he may not be.I've always likened Jon's path and arc so far as a lefhanded one.Tool of no one save the Morrigan,though others may seek to use him,they'll end up breaking their necks against him. In short,he'll do what he's meant to do.It won't look right but it will be right.That path seldom wins accolades and glory.Dany is going to get played big time,she'll be used and she'll think its right but it will be wrong.I sincerly believe that of her.

Jon is the reverse in that he will look the villain but in actuallity not be. As i said many times before.Men will curse his name and call him traitor.Not knowing that in the end he was the one to "tame the cold" and master it by being its master.Jon will if he succeeds in claiming his position will have power of command. I won't be suprised if at one point they'll be Wights fighting Wights.

But if you on the outside looking in and you see Jon Snow all blue eyed with a posse of Wights and WWs in service your not going to think its for the greater good.

Yes and no.

I do mean Jon, because other than an intriguing suggestion that his father might actually have been Ser Arthur Dayne, I really don't see a realistic alternative. That being said I'm still of the belief that Lyanna Stark is more important in this, partly because GRRM has always spoken in text and SSM of Jon's mother rather than his parents, and partly because of the emphasis placed on Winterfell and in particular Maester Aemon's:

"You are a son of Winterfell, a nephew of Benjen Stark. It must be you or no one."

Thus while prepared to accept the proposition that if Jon's mother is Lyanna Stark [of which there seems no realistic doubt] and Rhaegar the most likely father I differ from the faithful in declining to make the leap to R+L=AA, because as I said while Rhaegar appears to have been trying to bring about a certain prophecy GRRM has made in pretty clear, again in text and SSM that prophecies in his world don't work out as expected.

As to what we get instead I don't see the "anti-christ" in this instance as being the personification of evil predicted by AtS but as the King of Winter. Whether the question of perception comes into it, as Wolfmaid suggests, I don't know but an "injection" of Fire into a bloodline as old as the Starks may not necessarily bring about a union but serve as a trigger for something else.

Jon after all appears to be immune to Mel's charms.

This !!!! And then some.

Just to add to what BC already said I think there is a pretty easy explanation for the Wall: It is supposed to stop the cold. Sure you could stop wights with something much less impressive than the Wall but what would it matter when the cold just creates wights behind you?

Cold air stays close to the surface thus the higher the Wall the harder it gets to blow the cold winds over it. I suspect the only reason the Other-Jafer business was even possible is because the Know-Nothing-Watch cut a tunnel through the Wall. There is a reason the gate at the Night's fort is below the ground and not through the Wall.

:agree:

I completely agree, when he first came home he didn't even know Cat and had no reason to trust her. But after 15 years of marriage, I would think he would come around, especially since the truth would fix the one difficulty in their marriage.

But don't worry, I'm pretty sure even most heretics on here believe in the plain-jane version when it comes to RLJ, so it's me that's cracking the pot here, you're pretty mainstream. ;)

I love watching you and BC go back and forth on this issue. When he makes his case, it sounds strong to me. Then it's your turn, and I think "damn, that's good too!" Guess that's a sign of a good debate- keep it up, Sers! :cheers:

The lack of an additional horn signal is not something I had considered before. If indeed there was another enemy, or one coming from the South, there should be a way to alert the brothers to that as well. Great point!

I wonder if the Wall, much like the Hightower and Moat Cailin, was already there in the Dawn Age, built by whoever was there before. The First Men arrive, war with the CotF, etc etc. A few thousand years go by, then we have a long winter and the Others appear. Somehow, men beat them back (or they leave with the cold. We don't know). Now men have an excellent use for this seemingly useless Wall spanning the entire continent. So that's what it's for! They start the NW to man the Wall, start building castles and tunnels, and make the Wall their own. Never having any clue what its original purpose might have been.

I find it hard to believe (and i said this before ) that men beat back an army of dead that outnumbered them in conditions that eclipsed the Fist.There's noway the NW rode out gloriously to anything of that. Armstark is correct in the Wall keeps that which raises the dead Northside...."The cold" which imo is an extention of the abilities associated with Skinchanging.The ability to reach out an link with your familar which in this case is dead bodies.

Armstark is also correct in his statement about the NW ( the gods truly don't suffer fools ,so you must forgive them) cutting a tunnel through the Wall allowing the "cold wind rising" to make contact with its familiars and boom. There still may be a bit of protection afforded by the Wall but not for long.

[Black Crow]

Jon must indeed be the king of winter, or the subject of winter is coming, whatever that that actually refers too. I dont think it is just about the recurring seasonal cycle. As a family motto, to an outsider it would make sence, however to those in the know it would mean something else. The problem is those in the know have long since forgotten. Maybe something in the stark line been broken when the the bard/ king beyond the wall came south and impregnated the stark daughter whose child later became king.

As to being an antichrist or indeed a christ there are too many shades of grey for either option and I dont believe GRRM has set this tale in any such absolutes.

Another reason why its all about Jon, he is the Stark on the wall, Ned sent him there after his meeting with Benjen. However if the stark on the wall is subservient to the one at winterfell, we have another nights king scenario. Jon is different so not subjected to just been a stark he can be more because he is not a stark but totally steeped in 'starkness'. He can do the job of a king of winter without the conflict of being the king of the north. His is the game of ice and fire the stark in winterfell (last one being Rob) doing the game of thrones.

The core of the question I feel is not who is king of winter but what is the king of winter. What is he king of, who/what are his subjects. Jon is a vastly powerful skinchanger aka the one eyed crow/Bran/BR. Him and Bran may be there to bring about balance in the elemental forces which have for some long forgotten reason come out of balance. They have a connection because they are family. We have seen evidence of Bran being a child of summer, he can sence Jon.

No Jon is not an antichrist figure, he is the counter point to Bran or whatever summer is. Perhaps a Trag from the south, maybe with Bran being the line of communication??

Well as I said, or rather clarified earlier today, I don't actually see Jon as the antichrist, but rather that given GRRM's observations on how prophecies come to pass I do think that if the object of Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna was to bring the Prince that was Promised [Azor Ahai?] prophecy to fruition the result is more likely to be a case of beware what you ask for.

As to the King of Winter I don't see him as an earthly ruler with subjects but rather as part of the balance. As I've said before, while GRRM has told us that the strange seasons have a magical cause I doubt that the magic can be undone by a union of Ice and Fire, but rather by maintaining the balance through a cycle of Summer and Winter kings and the resolution will be found not by defeating Winter but rather by defending that balance.

[MaesterSam]

[snip]

This has been something that I don't get.Reagar believed Ageon was it and we have no indication that he thought he was wrong.Only that he believed that there must be one more.So I don't know where the idea came that he was trying to produce him.

Black Crow got that one, I'm still unsure about Bran being the one who is supposed to have been tapped but it's neither here nor there.

I really like both these points, wolfmaid.

Rhaegar very clearly said that Aegon was the PTWP and his is the song of ice and fire. Then he said the dragon has three heads, so there must be one more (paraphrasing). So the child that bridged ice and fire had already been born. He already had his promised prince. He just needed a third child/dragon head. Elia couldn't give it to him, but any other woman could have. Why would he think it needed to be Lyanna Stark? We have no evidence whatsoever that he changed his mind about Aegon. (Yet one more reason why this whole situation is soooo fishy!)

As for Bran being the intended greenseer, I actually agree. The more I think about it, the more their gifts are all the same and just being promoted in different ways. When Bran dreamed that Ned had died, it was creepy how he knew that beforehand. But when he went down to the crypts, Rickon was already there! He had had the same dream.

Then, in aCoK, Theon has a greendream as well (if by greendream we mean a dream that symbolically foretells the future). I had forgotten about this, but when he is the lord of Winterfell he dreams that he is back at the harvest feast but the hall is full of dead people- all the people who had died in the war,but also from longer ago, such as Lyanna (in a white dress splattered with gore, if that tells us anything?) and Brandon. Winter is raging outside, then the door swings open and Robb and Grey Wind enter, with dozens of wounds each. Theon is extremely freaked out, and rightfully so as this foretells the RW.

What I am trying to say is, Theon has some kind of a gift too, and he's not even a Stark. Arya clearly is going to be powerful as well, and so is Jon after he comes back from the dead.

Maybe many of the royal houses really do descend from their magical ancestors (Bran the Builder, Garth the Green etc) and therefore have a predisposition to master such powers. They have the gift, and depending on how it is awakened and promoted, the nature of the gift is changeable.

BR chose Bran b/c he can only access these individuals during times of sensory deprivation. So he had to wait for the fall. If another kid had been in a coma, he would have picked that one. (Didn't he try Euron too, or am I making that up? If true it would again support the notion that the Starks and Targaryens are not the only noble houses with special gifts.)

(...)

"You are a son of Winterfell, a nephew of Benjen Stark. It must be you or no one."

So he's saying it's either Jon or Arya? :rofl: Sorry, couldn't resist. ;)

This is actually a heresy of some long-standing. :commie: :commie: :commie:

Awesome!

Would this apply to WF as well? Since apparently that was built by neither the First Men nor the Andals....

From the WB:

Within its walls, the castle sprawls across several acres of land, encompassing many freestanding buildings. The oldest of these—a long-abandoned tower, round and squat and covered with gargoyles —has become known as the First Keep. Some take this to mean that it was built by the First Men, but Maester Kennet has definitively proved that it could not have existed before the arrival of the Andals since the First Men and the early Andals raised square towers and keeps. Round towers came sometime later.

Kind of weird how they just accept this. This castle is thousands of years old. It's architecture is far too advanced for that time, but we know it's that old. Anyone who thinks there may have been a third race around is clearly a fool, as there is no evidence for this..aside from all these ancient super advanced structures that we don't know anything about.

First a minor technical point. When we hear of a single blast, two blasts and three blasts of the horn, what this actually means is a single blast for friends, a double blast for wildlings and a triple blast for the Others. If it were one, two or three separate blasts respectively you'd be stuffed if the sentry took an arrow in the throat after the first one. :devil:

Second and more importantly a wildling warband is easy enough to identify, especially if the wind is blowing in the right direction :ack: but how do you recognise the Others if they aint been seen by living man for thousands of years? Yet in the prologue Will does recognise Craster's boys as the Others and there are sufficient other contemporary references to the white walkers in the woods to inspire confidence that sentries know how to recognise them and to blow that triple blast as the unknown sentry at the Fist did.

I thought Sam heard three separate blasts at the Fist, did he not? Either way, I don't think it affects the argument (but I agree that the goal should be to have the blasts very close together so you don't get shot before you finish). As I understand it, the point VOTFM was making is that, if the Wall had had a different/additional purpose back in the day, there should be additional horn signals. Such as signals for "friends/wildlings/Others from the South" instead of the one, two or three blasts for these groups from the North. The direction of approach seems important. Or if priests, or traders, or cults bringing sacrifices were involved, there should be signals for them.

Bottom line: the current three signals support the idea that the NW has, for a very long time, been doing the job they do now, which includes fighting wildlings but also Others, if needed. These are the only events they have any signals for.

I don't think we disagree on rangers being able to identify an Other when they see one. They clearly can. Will calls the one in the prologue an Other right from the start, and even Sam knows them when he sees them. No argument there.

[MaesterSam]

I'm suprised we aren't talking about this in detail because i find that so fascinating moreso because again there is a huge element of "glamours" being utilized there.Dany is hearing this beautiful music playing;filling the air and she sees the wizards as "they" want her to see them beautiful,bedazzled etc.But Drogon goes directly to the Weirwood and Ebony door attacking it which behind lays the true visage of the wizards "dead corpses controlled by a cold heart blue and corrupted".Westros may be the epicenter and the seat whereby these powers are tapped by sorcery.

I find it hard to believe (and i said this before ) that men beat back an army of dead that outnumbered them in conditions that eclipsed the Fist.There's noway the NW rode out gloriously to anything of that. Armstark is correct in the Wall keeps that which raises the dead Northside...."The cold" which imo is an extention of the abilities associated with Skinchanging.The ability to reach out an link with your familar which in this case is dead bodies.

Armstark is also correct in his statement about the NW ( the gods truly don't suffer fools ,so you must forgive them) cutting a tunnel through the Wall allowing the "cold wind rising" to make contact with its familiars and boom. There still may be a bit of protection afforded by the Wall but not for long.

I agree completely with the bolded part. I was just using the "official version of events" while trying to make a different point. You're right, it's hard to believe it really went down that way.

As for the tunnels, weren't they going to fill them in? Once water is poured in and hardens into ice, theoretically the Wall should be continuous again. (I agree they were a terrible idea in the first place. There obviously had to have been a reason to make the Black Gate the only way to get across. Making things more "convenient" by cutting holes in the Wall is extremely counterproductive.)

As for the corpses and the glamors, I wonder if Lord Tywin had something to hide. Everyone always said he looked great for his age, but then when he died he rotted so quickly, as if he had been dead for much longer.

[wolfmaid7]

As to the King of Winter I don't see him as an earthly ruler with subjects but rather as part of the balance. As I've said before, while GRRM has told us that the strange seasons have a magical cause I doubt that the magic can be undone by a union of Ice and Fire, but rather by maintaining the balance through a cycle of Summer and Winter kings and the resolution will be found not by defeating Winter but rather by defending that balance.

These are two points that cannot be stressed enough and i know a lot of people are looking forward to and epic battle between the forces of ice and fire for supremacy of the land. What is needed is a new ( if there never was one) or a return to what was. The natural push and pull of the respective Kings without sorcery or the influence of wizards siphoning the powers of these forces.This goes back to our old saying about these elements being bridled by the correct people.

I really like both these points, wolfmaid.

Rhaegar very clearly said that Aegon was the PTWP and his is the song of ice and fire. Then he said the dragon has three heads, so there must be one more (paraphrasing). So the child that bridged ice and fire had already been born. He already had his promised prince. He just needed a third child/dragon head. Elia couldn't give it to him, but any other woman could have. Why would he think it needed to be Lyanna Stark? We have no evidence whatsoever that he changed his mind about Aegon. (Yet one more reason why this whole situation is soooo fishy!)

As for Bran being the intended greenseer, I actually agree. The more I think about it, the more their gifts are all the same and just being promoted in different ways. When Bran dreamed that Ned had died, it was creepy how he knew that beforehand. But when he went down to the crypts, Rickon was already there! He had had the same dream.

Then, in aCoK, Theon has a greendream as well (if by greendream we mean a dream that symbolically foretells the future). I had forgotten about this, but when he is the lord of Winterfell he dreams that he is back at the harvest feast but the hall is full of dead people- all the people who had died in the war,but also from longer ago, such as Lyanna (in a white dress splattered with gore, if that tells us anything?) and Brandon. Winter is raging outside, then the door swings open and Robb and Grey Wind enter, with dozens of wounds each. Theon is extremely freaked out, and rightfully so as this foretells the RW.

What I am trying to say is, Theon has some kind of a gift too, and he's not even a Stark. Arya clearly is going to be powerful as well, and so is Jon after he comes back from the dead.

Maybe many of the royal houses really do descend from their magical ancestors (Bran the Builder, Garth the Green etc) and therefore have a predisposition to master such powers. They have the gift, and depending on how it is awakened and promoted, the nature of the gift is changeable.

BR chose Bran b/c he can only access these individuals during times of sensory deprivation. So he had to wait for the fall. If another kid had been in a coma, he would have picked that one. (Didn't he try Euron too, or am I making that up? If true it would again support the notion that the Starks and Targaryens are not the only noble houses with special gifts.)

So he's saying it's either Jon or Arya? :rofl: Sorry, couldn't resist. ;)

Awesome!

Would this apply to WF as well? Since apparently that was built by neither the First Men nor the Andals....

From the WB:

Kind of weird how they just accept this. This castle is thousands of years old. It's architecture is far too advanced for that time, but we know it's that old. Anyone who thinks there may have been a third race around is clearly a fool, as there is no evidence for this..aside from all these ancient super advanced structures that we don't know anything about.

I thought Sam heard three separate blasts at the Fist, did he not? Either way, I don't think it affects the argument (but I agree that the goal should be to have the blasts very close together so you don't get shot before you finish). As I understand it, the point VOTFM was making is that, if the Wall had had a different/additional purpose back in the day, there should be additional horn signals. Such as signals for "friends/wildlings/Others from the South" instead of the one, two or three blasts for these groups from the North. The direction of approach seems important. Or if priests, or traders, or cults bringing sacrifices were involved, there should be signals for them.

Bottom line: the current three signals support the idea that the NW has, for a very long time, been doing the job they do now, which includes fighting wildlings but also Others, if needed. These are the only events they have any signals for.

I don't think we disagree on rangers being able to identify an Other when they see one. They clearly can. Will calls the one in the prologue an Other right from the start, and even Sam knows them when he sees them. No argument there.

As i think sometimes there is some error in our reasoning and or premise of events pertaining to Rheagar and Lyanna. It a behavioral and reasoning thing for me that raises a few red flags.To throw another wrench in everything and upset it some more just to be complete about the whole thing.According to the WB

Master Brude who was borne and raised in Borne observed that" Dorne had more in common with the North than either does with the realms between them. One is hot and one is cold" and there are more comparisons worthy of reading pg 235.

So by this reasoning Dorne is fire and the North is ice.So R would have had all his kids by Elia being Fire+Fire except .He called Ageon the song of ice and fire.The only way this would work is and if we want to say Jon is R+L's kid is that Ageon who Elia is holding is actually now Jon.

Its crackpot i know,maybe Elia was in on it and the plan was to steal Lya's baby and have Elia raise it as her own. Lya may have been a surrogate womb or something except she wasn't in on having her babe taken away from her as soon as it was born.

This is hunger speaking now i need to revisit this when i have food. Its just interesting how Maester Brude compared them.

[wolfmaid7]

I agree completely with the bolded part. I was just using the "official version of events" while trying to make a different point. You're right, it's hard to believe it really went down that way.

As for the tunnels, weren't they going to fill them in? Once water is poured in and hardens into ice, theoretically the Wall should be continuous again. (I agree they were a terrible idea in the first place. There obviously had to have been a reason to make the Black Gate the only way to get across. Making things more "convenient" by cutting holes in the Wall is extremely counterproductive.)

As for the corpses and the glamors, I wonder if Lord Tywin had something to hide. Everyone always said he looked great for his age, but then when he died he rotted so quickly, as if he had been dead for much longer.

I think they were going to fill them in and they might have during the Battle for the Wall. Jon if i remembered correctly ordered they be filled but i'm not sure if they did. If they did that unbeknown to Jon he did the right thing.Though i don't think that would matter after back stabbing 2 LCs i'd say the Wall itself will abandon their behinds....Bring on the Cold Winds.

As for Tywin nah he was just a douche looking good because of good living,but still a douche.Now a dead douche.

[Voice]

Aux contraire, I would argue that far from overly-complicating the story, revealing the Wall as a dividing line between the realms rather than a fortification resolves all sorts of practical questions - not least why is it so high when these "ancient Others" in the annals are no different from Craster's boys - a point emphasised by Sam:

“The Others.” Sam licked his lips. “They are mentioned in the annals, though not as often as I would have thought. The annals I’ve found and looked at, that is…

“The Others come when it is cold, most of the tales agree. Or else it gets cold when they come. Sometimes they appear during snowstorms and melt away when the skies clear. They hide from the light of the sun and emerge by night… or else night falls when they emerge. Some stories speak of them riding the corpses of dead animals. Bears, direwolves, mammoths, horses, it makes no matter so long as the beast is dead. The one that killed Small Paul was riding a dead horse, so that part’s plainly true. Some accounts speak of giant ice spiders too. I don’t know what those are. Men who fall in battle against the Others must be burned, or else the dead will rise again as their thralls.”

“We knew all this. The question is how do we fight them?”

“The armor of the Others is proof against most ordinary blades, if the tales can be believed,” said Sam, “and their own swords are so cold they shatter steel. Fire will dismay them, though, and they are vulnerable to obsidian” He remembered the one he had faced in the haunted forest, and how it had seemed to melt away when he stabbed it with the dragonglass dagger Jon had made for him. “I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it.”

Sure, and again, I very much like your alternative and your reasoning. I do try to keep an open mind with these things, but the Wall is known all over planetos as a man-made structure; "the largest structure ever made by the hands of men." And, this is one of the very few areas where the citadel and wetnurses agree. Seven hells, even the Free Folk agree! They even have that "we didn't cross the border, the border crossed us" mantra that is heard ad noseum in my (and George's) neck of the woods.

Then, there is the existence of the Black Gate in the Nightfort... This, for me, dispelled any notion of the Wall not being created by BtB, or at the very least, the original NW.

I find it much less likely GRRM would forgo 5 novels worth of backstory regarding the most recognizable structure in the series in order to give us a completely new origin, and deal a significant blow to the significance of the watch, in order to make a hollow announcement. Sure, such a proclamation would soothe some nagging suspicions, but it would accomplish very little as far as resolving the song of ice and fire goes, in my opinion.

[precioushobbit]

Tywin was a hard man that saw everything through a realpoltik lens. He had a knack for understanding others and their motiviations, like Tyrion, but never had or lost his capacity to empathize with them. We definitely see he is well-armored emotionally for the power struggle and makes hard political decisions that override all other ethical or 'fair play' considerations. His better qualities may have been eroded by the death of his wife and the slights he suffered at the hands of the Mad King. The real question of the forthcoming novels with Tyrion imho is if he will deaden his good guy character traits (he is a grey character, but one most readers find easier to like and respect) to earn more power at the cost of friends and love. Such a delicate and hard balance to strike. GRRM has written all his major characters in this direction including Daenearys who is facing a similiar dilemma in 'blood and fire' conquerer versus beloved ruler.

Tywin was likely poisoned and was dying before the Imp killed him with the crossbow weather he realized it or not. The Red Viper was on a suicide mission and the Mountain was just the side order.

[King Tyrion XX]

If Aegon is the union of Ice and Fire....how so?

[Voice]

This has been something that I don't get.Reagar believed Ageon was it and we have no indication that he thought he was wrong.Only that he believed that there must be one more.So I don't know where the idea came that he was trying to produce him.

Well yeah, but I mean, Aegon VI Targaryen is the red herring of All Red Herrings...that sets up the uncareful reader to assume there was never a third head of the dragon of Rhaegar's seed, and that rather than having another child, Dany in the HotU is now the real (3rd head) dragon of dragons. What good is RLJ if it's obvious? It's little things like this that make it a fun mystery to puzzle out, George trying to throw us off the scent...

[wolfmaid7]

Well yeah, but I mean, Aegon VI Targaryen is the red herring of All Red Herrings...that sets up the uncareful reader to assume there was never a third head of the dragon of Rhaegar's seed, and that rather than having another child, Dany in the HotU is now the real (3rd head) dragon of dragons. What good is RLJ if it's obvious? It's little things like this that make it a fun mystery to puzzle out, George trying to throw us off the scent...

Maybe,or maybe not.

[Phillip Frye]

Tywin was likely poisoned and was dying before the Imp killed him with the crossbow weather he realized it or not. The Red Viper was on a suicide mission and the Mountain was just the side order.

No, not a suicide mission. I think that his plan was to poison Tywin, demand a trial by combat, kill the Mountain, and then ride back to Dorne, having accomplished everything that he set out to do in King's Landing. Remember that his sellsword company had already taken care of Amory Lorch on his behalf and lopped off the sword hand of the only other potential champion for House Lannister.

[Phillip Frye]

While I agree that the Wall as a dividing line between the realms of men and realms of magic makes sense, I think that explanation fits better for what the Wall has become, rather than as an explanation for its creation. After all, it's obvious that even during the NK's time men were on both sides of the Wall, and there were also Singers on both sides of the Wall until the arrival of the Andals.

On the contrary, when the Wall was only twenty feet high and accessed only through a weirwood gate below ground, it was more obviously a demarcation between the realms of Men and Dark Narnia. At present, the Wall is 700 feet high and used entirely as an obstacle to wildling invasions. Back during the days of Jon Snow 1.0, it was much more explicitly magical, especially with corpse-brides and men with bright blue eyes on the premises.

[Phillip Frye]

Yes, but it was Tywin who killed the children, not Robert. Ned was upset b/c Robert wasn't upset. Robert did not order the murder of Rhaegar's children; his only 'sin' was not punishing Tywin after the fact.

The problem with Robert is that he is a coward. When Cersei decides Lady has to die, he agrees with her, then walks away, washing his hands of it. As he did when Tywin presented the children.

Ordering the death of Dany is different- otherwise why would Ned, who considered Robert a good man and a friend all these years, get SO upset and quit his job as Hand? Ned knew Robert was a coward, but he is shocked to learn he would murder innocents merely for their bloodline. He "thought him a better man."

As for Cat, hahahaha I forgot she pretty much caused this whole mess. Well, her and Sansa together. No wonder LF likes them so much, they create the chaos he feeds on!

Not different at all. Here is an example of how it would have happened if Robert had learned that Jon Snow was half-Targaryen:

One of Leto's tiny hands gestured at Malky, who lay staring up at the blunt profile of a face within its gray cowl. "For reasons of old admiration and . . . many other reasons, I cannot kill Malky. I cannot even ask it of you . . . yet he must be eliminated."

"Ohhh, how clever you are!" Malky said.

"Lord, if you will wait at the other end of the chamber," Moneo said. "Perhaps when you return Malky no longer will be a problem."

"He's going to do it," Malky husked. "God's below! He's going to do it."

Leto squirmed away and went to the shadowed limit of the chamber, keeping his attention on the faint arc of a line which would become an opening into the night if he merely converted the wish into a thought-of-command. What a long drop that would be out there--just roll off the landing lip. He doubted that even his body would survive it. But there was no water in the sand beneath his tower and he could feel the Golden Path winking in and out of existence merely because he allowed himself to think of such an end.

"Leto!" Malky called from behind him.

Leto heard the litter grating on the wind-scattered sand which peppered the floor of his aerie.

Once more, Malky called: "Leto, you are the best! There's no evil in this universe which can surpass . . ."

A sodden thump shut off Malky's voice. A blow to the throat, Leto thought. Yes, Moneo knows that one. There came the sound of the balcony's transparent shield sliding open, the rasping of the litter on the rail, then silence.

Moneo will have to bury the body in the sand, Leto thought. There is as yet no worm to come and devour the evidence. Leto turned then and looked across the chamber. Moneo stood leaning over the railing, peering down . . . down . . . down . . .

I cannot pray for you, Malky, nor for you, Moneo, Leto thought. I may be the only religious consciousness in the Empire because I am truly alone . . . so I cannot pray.

Another way to put it: "Who will rid me of this turbulent priest?"

[Voice]

I love watching you and BC go back and forth on this issue. When he makes his case, it sounds strong to me. Then it's your turn, and I think "damn, that's good too!" Guess that's a sign of a good debate- keep it up, Sers! :cheers:

The lack of an additional horn signal is not something I had considered before. If indeed there was another enemy, or one coming from the South, there should be a way to alert the brothers to that as well. Great point!

I wonder if the Wall, much like the Hightower and Moat Cailin, was already there in the Dawn Age, built by whoever was there before. The First Men arrive, war with the CotF, etc etc. A few thousand years go by, then we have a long winter and the Others appear. Somehow, men beat them back (or they leave with the cold. We don't know). Now men have an excellent use for this seemingly useless Wall spanning the entire continent. So that's what it's for! They start the NW to man the Wall, start building castles and tunnels, and make the Wall their own. Never having any clue what its original purpose might have been.

Lol Cheers! :cheers: glad we might amuse :) I have a hunch it will continue for some time. These debates are great for helping all of us flesh out theories and interpretations.

As to the rest of your post, what about the Black Gate? The Wall is as much a part of the Night's Watch as the Night's Watch is a part of the Wall. And without the Long Night 1.0, there would never have been a Wall, nor a Watch. Without First Men migrations into Westeros, there would be no Long Night.

The Song of Ice and Fire belongs to a Man. It is not a song for Children or Giants to sing. It is not for the Others, the Faceless Men, or Mel... It isn't even for the First Men, or Greenseers. It belongs only to tPtwP. It is a human song to sing. It is his song to sing.

Therefore, I think we forget ourselves, and the foundation of the story itself, when we begin to drift into a Westeros in which the Wall always existed of its own accord - or was built by anything other than Man. In doing so, we begin to form theories within the bounds of a story Martin has not written. In fact, saying the Wall grew of its own accord from the hinge/fault/volcano/magic powers that be is literally deus ex machina - rather than Bran the Builder. Men did this thing. No other ;)

One may dismiss "he is the Prince that was Promised and his is the Song of Ice and Fire," to their peril, I'd say, but I for one cannot imagine GRRM throwing out such carefully hidden clues so that the Wall can be nothing more than a border fence. Call it a hinge, call it a tectonic plate... but without Others and the specter of a Long Night 2.0, it is nothing of great consequence.

Just to add to what BC already said I think there is a pretty easy explanation for the Wall: It is supposed to stop the cold. Sure you could stop wights with something much less impressive than the Wall but what would it matter when the cold just creates wights behind you?

Cold air stays close to the surface thus the higher the Wall the harder it gets to blow the cold winds over it. I suspect the only reason the Other-Jafer business was even possible is because the Know-Nothing-Watch cut a tunnel through the Wall. There is a reason the gate at the Night's fort is below the ground and not through the Wall.

Cold air does indeed dam, and on a molecular level, it becomes more dense when obstructed, but 700 feet are nothing difficult for Wind, or Cold, to traverse. And even when a cold air front comes into contact with a mountain range many thousands of feet high, it will still pass over and down the mountain once enough pressure has built up. Air will not be denied it's equilibrium, and claiming it is often the source of strong winter winds in mountain areas. (ahem..."Winds of Winter")

My own suspicion is that the height of the Wall is to account for snowdrifts. The Others make no sound, and tread lightly upon the Snow. The Others have no grappling hooks, and need not fell trees by the score to build siege towers. All they need do is wait. Wait for Night. Wait for Winter. Wait for Cold. Wait for Snow. Good things come to those who wait, and they are a patient lot.

[Black Crow]

As I understand it, the point VOTFM was making is that, if the Wall had had a different/additional purpose back in the day, there should be additional horn signals. Such as signals for "friends/wildlings/Others from the South" instead of the one, two or three blasts for these groups from the North. The direction of approach seems important. Or if priests, or traders, or cults bringing sacrifices were involved, there should be signals for them.

Bottom line: the current three signals support the idea that the NW has, for a very long time, been doing the job they do now, which includes fighting wildlings but also Others, if needed. These are the only events they have any signals for.

I don't think we disagree on rangers being able to identify an Other when they see one. They clearly can. Will calls the one in the prologue an Other right from the start, and even Sam knows them when he sees them. No argument there.

That's certainly how I understood our colleague with the Voice and I'm sure he'll correct us if we're wrong, but my argument was and still remains that originally the Wall was not created as a defensive but as a magical barrier, that the only way to pass between the realms was by the magic gate and that there was no garrison to to sound the doorbell. That came later.

[Black Crow]

Quote

Kind of weird how they just accept this. This castle is thousands of years old. It's architecture is far too advanced for that time, but we know it's that old. Anyone who thinks there may have been a third race around is clearly a fool, as there is no evidence for this..aside from all these ancient super advanced structures that we don't know anything about.

Indeed, I really don't understand this passage because in our world round towers came before square ones and I've always thought of the First Keep as being something akin to a broch. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broch

Can I recommend the earlier thread on Winterfell with OP by yours truly http://asoiaf.wester...-93-winterfell/

[wolfmaid7]

Lol Cheers! :cheers: glad we might amuse :) I have a hunch it will continue for some time. These debates are great for helping all of us flesh out theories and interpretations.

As to the rest of your post, what about the Black Gate? The Wall is as much a part of the Night's Watch as the Night's Watch is a part of the Wall. And without the Long Night 1.0, there would never have been a Wall, nor a Watch. Without First Men migrations into Westeros, there would be no Long Night.

The Song of Ice and Fire belongs to a Man. It is not a song for Children or Giants to sing. It is not for the Others, the Faceless Men, or Mel... It isn't even for the First Men, or Greenseers. It belongs only to tPtwP. It is a human song to sing. It is his song to sing.

Therefore, I think we forget ourselves, and the foundation of the story itself, when we begin to drift into a Westeros in which the Wall always existed of its own accord - or was built by anything other than Man. In doing so, we begin to form theories within the bounds of a story Martin has not written. In fact, saying the Wall grew of its own accord from the hinge/fault/volcano/magic powers that be is literally deus ex machina - rather than Bran the Builder. Men did this thing. No other ;)

One may dismiss "he is the Prince that was Promised and his is the Song of Ice and Fire," to their peril, I'd say, but I for one cannot imagine GRRM throwing out such carefully hidden clues so that the Wall can be nothing more than a border fence. Call it a hinge, call it a tectonic plate... but without Others and the specter of a Long Night 2.0, it is nothing of great consequence.

Cold air does indeed dam, and on a molecular level, it becomes more dense when obstructed, but 700 feet are nothing difficult for Wind, or Cold, to traverse. And even when a cold air front comes into contact with a mountain range many thousands of feet high, it will still pass over and down the mountain once enough pressure has built up. Air will not be denied it's equilibrium, and claiming it is often the source of strong winter winds in mountain areas. (ahem..."Winds of Winter")

My own suspicion is that the height of the Wall is to account for snowdrifts. The Others make no sound, and tread lightly upon the Snow. The Others have no grappling hooks, and need not fell trees by the score to build siege towers. All they need do is wait. Wait for Night. Wait for Winter. Wait for Cold. Wait for Snow. Good things come to those who wait, and they are a patient lot.

There are some things I agree with, but what I disagree with .I don't think anyone here thinks the Wall existed by itself. In fact there is varying ideas about who built it.The Volcano idea is a new one for me.

We have Martin'so words that says the Wall took hundreds of years to complete and thousands to reach its current height. Everything that the Wall was created for got done when it was considerably shorter .