Heresy 144 the Christmas edition

[Black Crow]

I don't doubt Dany was meant to die. How else would they have gotten the Dothraki to cross the narrow sea. The rest is foggier. As Arya heard in the well, they didn't want turmoil, yet anyway, so it is hard for me to believe they wanted to see the realm bleed. LF is the anarchist.

I rather thought the point of that conversation was that they did want a war, but that it was likely to happen too soon - before they had all the pieces in place.

[Black Crow]

And now as its Christmas Eve, a little bedtime story to uphold the heretical tradition of drawing upon good literature:

"Gentlemen," said Lord Eddard, "it is with great regret that I pronounce the thing impossible. Duty before everything. Sheathe, then, if you please, and follow us."

"Ser," said Hightower, parodying Ned, "it would afford us great pleasure to obey your polite invitation, if it depended upon ourselves; but, unfortunately, the thing is impossible: We are of the Kings Guard. Pass on your way, then; it is the best thing you can do."

This raillery exasperated Ned.

"We will charge upon you, then," said he, "if you disobey."

"There are seven of them," said Ser Arthur, half aloud, "and we are but three; we shall be beaten again, and must die upon the spot, for, on my part, I declare I will never appear before the usurper as a conquered man."

Ser Arthur, Ser Oswald, and the White Bull, instantly closed in, and Ned drew up his soldiers...

[Eira Seren]

And now as its Christmas Eve, a little bedtime story to uphold the heretical tradition of drawing upon good literature:

"Gentlemen," said Lord Eddard, "it is with great regret that I pronounce the thing impossible. Duty before everything. Sheathe, then, if you please, and follow us."

"Ser," said Hightower, parodying Ned, "it would afford us great pleasure to obey your polite invitation, if it depended upon ourselves; but, unfortunately, the thing is impossible: We are of the Kings Guard. Pass on your way, then; it is the best thing you can do."

This raillery exasperated Ned.

"We will charge upon you, then," said he, "if you disobey."

"There are seven of them," said Ser Arthur, half aloud, "and we are but three; we shall be beaten again, and must die upon the spot, for, on my part, I declare I will never appear before the usurper as a conquered man."

:commie: :commie: :commie:

Ser Arthur, Ser Oswald, and the White Bull, instantly closed in, and Ned drew up his soldiers...

Thanks for the fireside tale 😀

Happy Christmas and Merry Holidays to you and to all Heretics!

[Voice]

I rather thought the point of that conversation was that they did want a war, but that it was likely to happen too soon - before they had all the pieces in place.

Yes, that was what I meant by "yet anyway." They seek a coup however, and a lasting one. The wolf and lion are fighting for pride and honor. The stag fights for his rights, the kraken for plunder. The Martells seek justice. Varys and Illyrio are more methodical and patient than all of them, even prince Doran lol. I have a feeling their coup will be as silent as their little birds.

[wolfmaid7]

And now as its Christmas Eve, a little bedtime story to uphold the heretical tradition of drawing upon good literature:

"Gentlemen," said Lord Eddard, "it is with great regret that I pronounce the thing impossible. Duty before everything. Sheathe, then, if you please, and follow us."

"Ser," said Hightower, parodying Ned, "it would afford us great pleasure to obey your polite invitation, if it depended upon ourselves; but, unfortunately, the thing is impossible: We are of the Kings Guard. Pass on your way, then; it is the best thing you can do."

This raillery exasperated Ned.

"We will charge upon you, then," said he, "if you disobey."

"There are seven of them," said Ser Arthur, half aloud, "and we are but three; we shall be beaten again, and must die upon the spot, for, on my part, I declare I will never appear before the usurper as a conquered man."

:commie: :commie: :commie:

Ser Arthur, Ser Oswald, and the White Bull, instantly closed in, and Ned drew up his soldiers...

Word!!!!

Merry Christmas Heretics.........Don't be tooooo naughty.

[Eira Seren]

Double post

[Eira Seren]

Interesting question of course and if it has any significance beyond a flashy parlour trick which has served its purpose and gone [you don't honestly think that everything will be explained or even make sense in the end?] then it may be fundamental to what's going on.

We don't know who or what Mel really is, but there are shrewd suspicions in these here parts at least that she is no longer human and that just as Craster's boys are Ice made flesh, she herself is Fire made flesh - and whether she is fully aware of this is an another interesting question.

A lot of the magic we see being practiced [and I'm trying not to be too pedantic here] seems to involve out of body stuff in various forms including but almost certainly not confined to skinchanging and warging. We also know, and its of a piece with this that adepts can recognise each other.

In this case therefore I'd say that Mel was able to recognise there was something fishy about the eagle and project hereself accordingly. That's not to suggest that she herself is capable of actual skinchanging because as yet we've seen absolutely no hint of this, and in any case the eagle incident strongly suggests that she has the power but not the ability. If that sounds like a contradiction it isn't because if we return to good old Varamyr we see how a powerful skinchanger can not only take over an animal but expel any other skinchanger already in residence. Mel was able to expel Orell, but couldn't actually skinchange the eagle because being Fire she consumed it.

There is a further wrinkle to this in a popular belief that one of these days Bran will come fully into his powers and be able to skinchange a dragon, but yet if said dragon is indeed fire made flesh the experiment is likely to prove brief, very painful and probably fatal.

That's a good one. But let's say for a minute Bran matches himself with a dragon's magic and surpasses it. If this cold magic is really the dept of the greenseers, what will Bran or the dragon become? Are we looking at an ice dragon?

And what did Bran see in the heart of winter? Was it something to do with the human heart, and the fear of what lies inside, of what may happen to him?

[DarkRose_9]

That's a good one. But let's say for a minute Bran matches himself with a dragon's magic and surpasses it. If this cold magic is really the dept of the greenseers, what will Bran or the dragon become? Are we looking at an ice dragon?

And what did Bran see in the heart of winter? Was it something to do with the human heart, and the fear of what lies inside, of what may happen to him?

While Bran Skinchanging a dragon, and it turning into an Ice dragon would be the epitome of Awesome, I don't think it will happen. Mostly because it would negate the very human conflict that GRRM loves to write.

[Black Crow]

And what did Bran see in the heart of winter? Was it something to do with the human heart, and the fear of what lies inside, of what may happen to him?

Yes, I'd agree with Dark Rose. As I've said before the Heart of Winter is not to be found in geography but as in Conrad's story it is the Heart of Darkness within

[Black Crow]

Thanks for the fireside tale

And I take it we all recognise the passage, unaltered apart from changing the names?

Bed-time now, so good night all and have a very happy christmas

[aDanceWithFlagons]

And I take it we all recognise the passage, unaltered apart from changing the names?

Bed-time now, so good night all and have a very happy christmas

I don't recognize the passage, but I may be having a memory lapse.

A happy Christmas to you and to Everyone.

[Voice]

I don't recognize the passage, but I may be having a memory lapse.

A happy Christmas to you and to Everyone.

It's from the 3 musketeers

[Eira Seren]

I think I didn't phrase the second part quite right, I'll think about it more and try again later.

But it's after midnight and we have a 7 am breakfast with the in-laws. . . I remember a time when Christmas was a bit more relaxed :)

[Black Crow]

It's from the 3 musketeers

Got in one. Its the chapter near the beginning where D'Artagnan meets round the back of the convent for a recounter with all three of the Musketeers only for the Cardinal's Guard to turn up.

Apart from changing the names, the only alteration was to increase Jussac's/Ned's party to seven from the original five, while leaving the three Musketeers of the King's Guard as they were.

The outcome of course was different in that D'Artagnan's decision to help the King's Guard saw them win.

[Voice]

Got in one. Its the chapter near the beginning where D'Artagnan meets round the back of the convent for a recounter with all three of the Musketeers only for the Cardinal's Guard to turn up.

Apart from changing the names, the only alteration was to increase Jussac's/Ned's party to seven from the original five, while leaving the three Musketeers of the King's Guard as they were.

The outcome of course was different in that D'Artagnan's decision to help the King's Guard saw them win.

Read it in high school or junior high, many winters ago. Funny I never realized how much that fight was like the one at the TOJ. Different, but much alike - something about the urgency and feel of it. It's a great comparison. Ned began as Jussac, but ended up finding a new loyalty within himself, a bit like d'Artagnan. Though, it was admittedly after the fight instead of beforehand. But Ned soon became one of the musketeers himself, in a way, by protecting Jon (particularly if R+L were wed). Don't you think?

I'm reading Tyrion's chapter in ADWD (ch 27) and Jorah is explaining local Volantine elections, and how men in the Free Cities think of westerosi as either barbaric or as children, due to their reliance on a strong father figure (a king). The Volantines elect their Triarchy by popular vote.

In thinking about your Dumasian TOJ retelling, I am reminded of the many instances of royalists vs republicans, or democratic revolutionaries, throughout history. One could say Jon Arryn, Robert, and Ned were leading a populist/reformist revolution of sorts to overthrow a mad king, but then, fell into the same old habit of ruling westeros as a kingdom - by default rather than conviction.

Martin detailed many atrocities committed by the Targ and "Baratheon" royal families, while educating us on other means of governance. He has also gone out of his way to give us the history of the Great Councils that have sorted out succession issues over the years, and spent much time on the Blackfyre Rebellions.

I wonder if he is setting us up for the 7 kingdoms becoming a democracy.

[DarkRose_9]

Merry Christmas! :cheers:

[MaesterSam]

Interesting question of course and if it has any significance beyond a flashy parlour trick which has served its purpose and gone [you don't honestly think that everything will be explained or even make sense in the end?] then it may be fundamental to what's going on.

We don't know who or what Mel really is, but there are shrewd suspicions in these here parts at least that she is no longer human and that just as Craster's boys are Ice made flesh, she herself is Fire made flesh - and whether she is fully aware of this is an another interesting question.

A lot of the magic we see being practiced [and I'm trying not to be too pedantic here] seems to involve out of body stuff in various forms including but almost certainly not confined to skinchanging and warging. We also know, and its of a piece with this that adepts can recognise each other.

In this case therefore I'd say that Mel was able to recognise there was something fishy about the eagle and project hereself accordingly. That's not to suggest that she herself is capable of actual skinchanging because as yet we've seen absolutely no hint of this, and in any case the eagle incident strongly suggests that she has the power but not the ability. If that sounds like a contradiction it isn't because if we return to good old Varamyr we see how a powerful skinchanger can not only take over an animal but expel any other skinchanger already in residence. Mel was able to expel Orell, but couldn't actually skinchange the eagle because being Fire she consumed it.

There is a further wrinkle to this in a popular belief that one of these days Bran will come fully into his powers and be able to skinchange a dragon, but yet if said dragon is indeed fire made flesh the experiment is likely to prove brief, very painful and probably fatal.

Haha no, I definitely don't think everything will be explained, ever. I guess that was my question- do we think this event is significant or not? In Mel's chapter, I got the feeling that she is faking a lot of what others see as her "power", using various tricks to make flames grow higher or change color, and pretending to understand the images in the flames better than she actually does. Then we have this contrasting image of her being able to set fire to an eagle in the sky. That one is definitely not a trick.

The parallel to the ww's is interesting in this context b/c it may explain why sometimes their presence can apparently cause people to freeze to death when at other times it does not. If they are the ice counterpart to Mel, then perhaps they can do this if they choose to- just as she doesn't set everyone around her on fire unless she consciously wills it. She radiates warmth, just as they radiate cold- but setting someone on fire or freezing someone instantaneously has to be purposely done. It is one weapon in the magic arsenal.

I'm not sure I would separate the expulsion of Varamyr from the eagle and its fiery death, as V6 has clear memories of this death. He left the eagle after it was already on fire, so I'm not sure Mel kicked him out and then started the fire as a consequence of taking over the eagle. I just reread the passage and interestingly, V6 does not seem to remember another skinchanger or any other power- he was confused when he suddenly burst into flame:

His last death had been by fire. I burned. At first, in his confusion, he thought some archer on the Wall had pierced him with a flaming arrow … but the fire had been inside him, consuming him. And the pain …

Varamyr had died nine times before. He had died once from a spear thrust, once with a bear’s teeth in his throat, and once in a wash of blood as he brought forth a stillborn cub. He died his first death when he was only six, as his father’s axe crashed through his skull. Even that had not been so agonizing as the fire in his guts, crackling along his wings, devouring him. When he tried to fly from it, his terror fanned the flames and made them burn hotter. One moment he had been soaring above the Wall, his eagle’s eyes marking the movements of the men below. Then the flames had turned his heart into a blackened cinder and sent his spirit screaming back into his own skin, and for a little while he’d gone mad. Even the memory was enough to make him shudder.

He seems to have no clue what happened, even after the fact.

Here it is from Jon's perspective:

“Banners,” he heard Varamyr murmur, “I see golden banners, oh...” A mammoth lumbered by, trumpeting, a half-dozen bowmen in the wooden tower on its back. “The king... no...”

Then the skinchanger threw back his head and screamed. The sound was shocking, ear-piercing, thick with agony. Varamyr fell, writhing, and the ‘cat was screaming too... and high, high in the eastern sky, against the wall of cloud, Jon saw the eagle burning. For a heartbeat it flamed brighter than a star, wreathed in red and gold and orange, its wings beating wildly at the air as if it could fly from the pain. Higher it flew, and higher, and higher still.

Then again, you may have a point regarding Mel and unusual skinchanger-like abilities:

She gazed at Ghost. “May I touch your …wolf?” The thought made Jon uneasy. “Best not.” “He will not harm me. You call him Ghost, yes?”

“Yes, but …” “Ghost.” Melisandre made the word a song. The direwolf padded toward her. Wary, he stalked about her in a circle, sniffing. When she held out her hand he smelled that too, then shoved his nose against her fingers. Jon let out a white breath. “He is not always so …”

“… warm? Warmth calls to warmth, Jon Snow.” Her eyes were two red stars, shining in the dark. At her throat, her ruby gleamed, a third eye glowing brighter than the others. Jon had seen Ghost’s eyes blazing red the same way, when they caught the light just right. “Ghost,” he called. “To me.”

I am too lazy to dig it out right now, but IIRC this encounter is very similar to the Reeds meeting Shaggydog for the first time.

I don't doubt Dany was meant to die. How else would they have gotten the Dothraki to cross the narrow sea. The rest is foggier. As Arya heard in the well, they didn't want turmoil, yet anyway, so it is hard for me to believe they wanted to see the realm bleed. LF is the anarchist.

I think the "yet" is key. They did want it eventually. In fact, Varys explains this to Kevan as he is dying. The realm has to be in chaos so that Aegon will be welcomed with open arms (while also meeting only minimal resistance).

[Voice]

Merry Christmas! :cheers:

yes, Merry Christmas all!

[wolfmaid7]

Haha no, I definitely don't think everything will be explained, ever. I guess that was my question- do we think this event is significant or not? In Mel's chapter, I got the feeling that she is faking a lot of what others see as her "power", using various tricks to make flames grow higher or change color, and pretending to understand the images in the flames better than she actually does. Then we have this contrasting image of her being able to set fire to an eagle in the sky. That one is definitely not a trick.

The parallel to the ww's is interesting in this context b/c it may explain why sometimes their presence can apparently cause people to freeze to death when at other times it does not. If they are the ice counterpart to Mel, then perhaps they can do this if they choose to- just as she doesn't set everyone around her on fire unless she consciously wills it. She radiates warmth, just as they radiate cold- but setting someone on fire or freezing someone instantaneously has to be purposely done. It is one weapon in the magic arsenal.

I'm not sure I would separate the expulsion of Varamyr from the eagle and its fiery death, as V6 has clear memories of this death. He left the eagle after it was already on fire, so I'm not sure Mel kicked him out and then started the fire as a consequence of taking over the eagle. I just reread the passage and interestingly, V6 does not seem to remember another skinchanger or any other power- he was confused when he suddenly burst into flame:

He seems to have no clue what happened, even after the fact.

Here it is from Jon's perspective:

Then again, you may have a point regarding Mel and unusual skinchanger-like abilities:

I am too lazy to dig it out right now, but IIRC this encounter is very similar to the Reeds meeting Shaggydog for the first time.

I think the "yet" is key. They did want it eventually. In fact, Varys explains this to Kevan as he is dying. The realm has to be in chaos so that Aegon will be welcomed with open arms (while also meeting only minimal resistance).

True not everything will and could be explained but the incident with Mel and V6 always strikes me visually because (and its only a feeling) this is what i think will happen if a skinchanger dares this with a Dragon.He'll burn.

If you remember my comparison on my Dragon thread of the similarities between the Dragon song in Dany's dream and the Dragon horn.How vic felt it sear him inside out the pain. Dany was not affected so because she was Drogon's intended.I think it's a magic sort of like that imo.

[Black Crow]

Read it in high school or junior high, many winters ago. Funny I never realized how much that fight was like the one at the TOJ. Different, but much alike - something about the urgency and feel of it. It's a great comparison.

Its one of the things I like about GRRM's work and something that underpins so much of heresy. Read the passage about the rencounter in isolation and its easy to get sucked into the whole [R+L=J] + [3xKG] = IT theory because there is seemingly no other explanation that makes sense. However identify what the episode is based on and a whole new layer of meaning can be revealed and that it really is a futile rencounter forced upon both parties by a rigid sense of honour and that's why Ned still chose to remember Ser Arthur Dayne for that.

Arguably of course that's exactly what we get on a first read through, but knowing of the parallel helps reinforce that's what it really was about and may not be a random "clue" to Jon's supposed status. Context as always is everything and here Ned dreams once again of Dumas' rencounter which was all about honour not to tell us about Jon but as a contrast with the squalid fight with a man of no honour which crippled him and killed his men