Female titles

[DanaKz]

I believe it was discussed already, but I need clarification.

1. Daemon's daughters. In TPATQ they were styled "lady Baela" and "lady Rhaena", same were used in the list of the dragons in "Aegon II" chapter, then in "Aegon III" they are called "princesses" (the part about Daenaera's debut).

Is it some kind of mistake, misunderstandin or we missed something here?

2. (Yep, I have very boring life) I counted every time a woman was called "princess" in the book, and everytime it was Targ, Martell or Rhoynish. Never ever Betha Blackwood or Alys Arryn or Dyanna Dayne were called a "princess". Does it mean prince's wife cannot be princess if she is not princess by right?

3. Same for princesses married into other house. Could Rhaelle be styled "lady Rhaelle Baratheon" or not?

Upd. I missed one word. It's in bold.

I mean "Does a lady have a right to be styled as princess if she is prince's wife but not a princess by right? (like Martell. I mean only Mariah and Elia are styled "princess" but not Dyanna Dayne, Larra Rogare or Alys Arryn) We know for sure that Jenny of Oldstones was styled Lady Jenny but we don't know if it was only because of her lawborn status, because Duncan was no more prince or because only princess by birthright can be styled "princess"

[Maester Pedant]

I believe it was discussed already, but I need clarification.

1. Daemon's daughters. In TPATQ they were styled "lady Baela" and "lady Rhaena", same were used in the list of the dragons in "Aegon II" chapter, then in "Aegon III" they are called "princesses" (the part about Daenaera's debut).

Is it some kind of mistake, misunderstandin or we missed something here?

2. (Yep, I have very boring life) I counted every time a woman was called "princess" in the book, and everytime it was Targ, Martell or Rhoynish. Never ever Betha Blackwood or Alys Arryn or Dyanna Dayne were called a "princess". Does it mean prince's wife cannot be princess if she is princess by right?

3. Same for princesses married into other house. Could Rhaelle be styled "lady Rhaelle Baratheon" or not?

I don't think there is a general rule for any of that. There are probably a few guidelines, but nothing that is strictly "enforced", so to speak.

As the daughters of a Targaryen Prince, Baela and Rhaena are probably entitled to be styled "Princess", but sometimes they would be called that, and sometimes not. I assume "Lady" is just the common designation for a highborn woman, when you want to emphasize her status.

As for Princesses by marriage, I really don't know what the usage would be. By analogy with real life, they would also be considered princesses. But, once again, the designations would vary.

As for Rhaelle, I doubt she would be styled as such. The Targaryen lineage would trump the rest, from the point of view of most people. But, in theory, I don't see why she couldn't be styled Lady Baratheon as well.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

I don't think there is a general rule for any of that. There are probably a few guidelines, but nothing that is strictly "enforced", so to speak.

As the daughters of a Targaryen Prince, Baela and Rhaena are probably entitled to be styled "Princess", but sometimes they would be called that, and sometimes not. I assume "Lady" is just the common designation for a highborn woman, when you want to emphasize her status.

As for Princesses by marriage, I really don't know what the usage would be. By analogy with real life, they would also be considered princesses. But, once again, the designations would vary.

As for Rhaelle, I doubt she would be styled as such. The Targaryen lineage would trump the rest, from the point of view of most people. But, in theory, I don't see why she couldn't be styled Lady Baratheon as well.

If our world's conventions in a similar setting are anything to go by, I think Rhaelle would have been styled "the princess Rhaelle of House Targaryen" during her childhood.

Once she marries Ormund, she's Lady Baratheon except for at court, by courtesy. I'm sure the symbolic cloaking ceremony at weddings of the Seven is like our own marriage ceremony in the West, where traditionally, a woman gives up her father's last name, and takes the last name of her husband.

Traditionally, across many cultures, when a daughter marries into a family, she's still informally part of her family of origin, but her primary loyalty and duty is to her husband and his family. So part of the sadness of Rhaelle's story is that because of her brother Duncan falling in love with Jenny and eloping with her, Rhaelle was sent to the Baratheons when she was only eight years old. She never had a choice.

Although we don't know how that shaped her subsequent relationship with her parents and the rest of the Targaryens, I think it's telling that her grandson Robert doesn't consider himself a Targaryen at all, although he's 1/4 Targ! That may say something about how Steffon felt about his mother's family -- and how her mother herself may have felt about things. But of course, all this is just guesswork. :)

[SeanF]

I believe it was discussed already, but I need clarification.

1. Daemon's daughters. In TPATQ they were styled "lady Baela" and "lady Rhaena", same were used in the list of the dragons in "Aegon II" chapter, then in "Aegon III" they are called "princesses" (the part about Daenaera's debut).

Is it some kind of mistake, misunderstandin or we missed something here?

2. (Yep, I have very boring life) I counted every time a woman was called "princess" in the book, and everytime it was Targ, Martell or Rhoynish. Never ever Betha Blackwood or Alys Arryn or Dyanna Dayne were called a "princess". Does it mean prince's wife cannot be princess if she is not princess by right?

3. Same for princesses married into other house. Could Rhaelle be styled "lady Rhaelle Baratheon" or not?

Upd. I missed one word. It's in bold.

I mean "Does a lady have a right to be styled as princess if she is prince's wife but not a princess by right? (like Martell. I mean only Mariah and Elia are styled "princess" but not Dyanna Dayne, Larra Rogare or Alys Arryn) We know for sure that Jenny of Oldstones was styled Lady Jenny but we don't know if it was only because of her lawborn status, because Duncan was no more prince or because only princess by birthright can be styled "princess"

Unless one is the Head of State of Dorne, his/her heir, or the heir to the IT (Prince of Dragonstone) then I think Prince or Princess is just a courtesy title.

[Maester Pedant]

If our world's conventions in a similar setting are anything to go by, I think Rhaelle would have been styled "the princess Rhaelle of House Targaryen" during her childhood.

Once she marries Ormund, she's Lady Baratheon except for at court, by courtesy. I'm sure the symbolic cloaking ceremony at weddings of the Seven is like our own marriage ceremony in the West, where traditionally, a woman gives up her father's last name, and takes the last name of her husband.

Traditionally, across many cultures, when a daughter marries into a family, she's still informally part of her family of origin, but her primary loyalty and duty is to her husband and his family. So part of the sadness of Rhaelle's story is that because of her brother Duncan falling in love with Jenny and eloping with her, Rhaelle was sent to the Baratheons when she was only eight years old. She never had a choice.

Although we don't know how that shaped her subsequent relationship with her parents and the rest of the Targaryens, I think it's telling that her grandson Robert doesn't consider himself a Targaryen at all, although he's 1/4 Targ! That may say something about how Steffon felt about his mother's family -- and how her mother herself may have felt about things. But of course, all this is just guesswork. :)

That depends a lot on the particular culture. In several cultures, a woman NEVER loses the connection with her birth family, to the point that she might not even adopt the husband's surname. That was the case, for example, in the Christian Kingdoms of the Iberian Peninsula in the Middle Ages. And it makes sense that if a Princess marries beneath her, so to speak, that she would primarily be known by the more exhalted title. As for Robert's lack of self-identification as part-Targaryen, that is partly due, of course, to the patrilinear traditions of Andal culture. But it is probable that Robert's case is peculiar on account of his personal antagonism with the Targaryens.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I believe it was discussed already, but I need clarification.

1. Daemon's daughters. In TPATQ they were styled "lady Baela" and "lady Rhaena", same were used in the list of the dragons in "Aegon II" chapter, then in "Aegon III" they are called "princesses" (the part about Daenaera's debut).

Is it some kind of mistake, misunderstandin or we missed something here?

2. (Yep, I have very boring life) I counted every time a woman was called "princess" in the book, and everytime it was Targ, Martell or Rhoynish. Never ever Betha Blackwood or Alys Arryn or Dyanna Dayne were called a "princess". Does it mean prince's wife cannot be princess if she is not princess by right?

3. Same for princesses married into other house. Could Rhaelle be styled "lady Rhaelle Baratheon" or not?

Upd. I missed one word. It's in bold.

I mean "Does a lady have a right to be styled as princess if she is prince's wife but not a princess by right? (like Martell. I mean only Mariah and Elia are styled "princess" but not Dyanna Dayne, Larra Rogare or Alys Arryn) We know for sure that Jenny of Oldstones was styled Lady Jenny but we don't know if it was only because of her lawborn status, because Duncan was no more prince or because only princess by birthright can be styled "princess"

1. Yeah, that was a mistake, IIRC

2. While in real-life it can be that the case, it would seem that in Westeros, you don't become a princess by marriage. At least, no examples have been given.

3. Rhaelle would most likely be able to choose which title she would want used. If she had a Cersei-like personality, she would have most likely insisted on Princess... Technically, both titles would be correct. And she was born a princess. She would have remained such until the day she died.

[DanaKz]

1. Yeah, that was a mistake, IIRC

2. While in real-life it can be that the case, it would seem that in Westeros, you don't become a princess by marriage. At least, no examples have been given.

3. Rhaelle would most likely be able to choose which title she would want used. If she had a Cersei-like personality, she would have most likely insisted on Princess... Technically, both titles would be correct. And she was born a princess. She would have remained such until the day she died.

Thank you Rhaenys, you always deliver.

BTW my question about #2 was because of Russian Wikia, there were some discussions about Dyanna Dayne and how to style her in her article

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Thank you Rhaenys, you always deliver.

BTW my question about #2 was because of Russian Wikia, there were some discussions about Dyanna Dayne and how to style her in her article

Until it is stated anywhere that the consort of a prince is called princess, I'd stick with the title 'Lady'. She was never a Queen, after all, despite having been married to a king.

Prince Daemon's first two wives kept the title 'Lady'.. I'm not sure at the moment if Jocelyn Baratheon's title is ever mentioned, but she's never called a princess. Princess Daella, upon her marriage to Lord Arryn, remained a princess (to parallel with Rhaelle.).

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

The same would go, btw, for Alys Arryn, Jena Dondarrion,Kiera of Tyrosh, Jenny of Oldstones Larra Rogare.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

That depends a lot on the particular culture. In several cultures, a woman NEVER loses the connection with her birth family, to the point that she might not even adopt the husband's surname. That was the case, for example, in the Christian Kingdoms of the Iberian Peninsula in the Middle Ages. And it makes sense that if a Princess marries beneath her, so to speak, that she would primarily be known by the more exhalted title. As for Robert's lack of self-identification as part-Targaryen, that is partly due, of course, to the patrilinear traditions of Andal culture. But it is probable that Robert's case is peculiar on account of his personal antagonism with the Targaryens.

Good points. I think it was probably more true of Targaryen princesses before the Dance than afterward. Rhaenyra remained a Targ even though she married a Velaryon.

I would think the Targs would become more Andal in their practices post-Dance to prevent another powerful Targ princess' descendants from wreaking havoc. After all, that's what happened with a Targ princess' bastard, Daena's Daemon Blackfyre, and the realm paid in blood.

It wouldn't have done for Rhaelle's descendants to imagine they could have ever pressed a claim for the IT, even though that's exactly what happened. Robert took the IT by right of conquest, but he sat it because he had "the better claim." Ironic because he loathed the Targs.

(Of course, all this makes it more difficult for Dany to press her claim even if she takes the throne by conquest. The point may be raised that no woman has ever sat the IT, and although she is a Targaryen by birth, she's married twice over to men with zero claim. Not that Dany is Andal by blood, custom, or rearing, but still, it's how many in the 7K will see things.)

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

I would think the Targs would become more Andal in their practices post-Dance to prevent another powerful Targ princess' descendants from wreaking havoc. After all, that's what happened with a Targ princess' bastard, Daena's Daemon Blackfyre, and the realm paid in blood.

(Of course, all this makes it more difficult for Dany to press her claim even if she takes the throne by conquest. The point may be raised that no woman has ever sat the IT, and although she is a Targaryen by birth, she's married twice over to men with zero claim. Not that Dany is Andal by blood, custom, or rearing, but still, it's how many in the 7K will see things.)

I think Targs went further than Andal custom in putting all male claimants (even collateral ones) before all female claimants (so, a king's brother before the king's daughter, or the king's uncle before the king's sister). Andal custom seems to be that a daughter can inherit if she has no brothers, even if she has uncles or male cousins?

As for Dany - if she claims the IT by conquest, custom doesn't really matter. No Dothraki would have ever thought he'd ride in a woman's khalasar, but when the Dosh Khaleen proclaim Dany as the Khal of Khals, their views will change. Same for the 7k, otherwise... Fire and blood (here's hoping!).

[Onion king beyond the wall]

Did anyone else read this title wrong and thought "titles" said something else? :drool:

[Nittanian]

Once she marries Ormund, she's Lady Baratheon except for at court, by courtesy. I'm sure the symbolic cloaking ceremony at weddings of the Seven is like our own marriage ceremony in the West, where traditionally, a woman gives up her father's last name, and takes the last name of her husband.

In this SSM GRRM states:

Most of the ladies of Westeros do change their names when they wed, although usage varies. If the wife's family is significantly higher born than the husband's, she may use his name little, if at all. The Dornish have their own customs. The full surname of the ruling house of Dorne is Nymeros Martell, and the ruling pricesses keep that in its female form. They do not take the name of their consorts.

Andal custom seems to be that a daughter can inherit if she has no brothers, even if she has uncles or male cousins?

Non-Targaryen quotes I can think of include:

*In AFFC Asha tells her uncles, "The Crow's Eye is a kraken. The elder brother comes before the younger. But I am the child of King Balon's body, so I come before you both."

*In ADWD Alys tells Jon, "My brother Harry is the rightful lord, and by law I am his heir. A daughter comes before an uncle."

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

I think Targs went further than Andal custom in putting all male claimants (even collateral ones) before all female claimants (so, a king's brother before the king's daughter, or the king's uncle before the king's sister). Andal custom seems to be that a daughter can inherit if she has no brothers, even if she has uncles or male cousins?

As for Dany - if she claims the IT by conquest, custom doesn't really matter. No Dothraki would have ever thought he'd ride in a woman's khalasar, but when the Dosh Khaleen proclaim Dany as the Khal of Khals, their views will change. Same for the 7k, otherwise... Fire and blood (here's hoping!).

Thanks! And yes... here's hoping! :cheers:

In this SSM GRRM states:

Non-Targaryen quotes I can think of include:

*In AFFC Asha tells her uncles, "The Crow's Eye is a kraken. The elder brother comes before the younger. But I am the child of King Balon's body, so I come before you both."

*In ADWD Alys tells Jon, "My brother Harry is the rightful lord, and by law I am his heir. A daughter comes before an uncle."

Appreciate this - thanks for the link!

I've always found it interesting that it's the more marginal regions -- the North, Dorne, and the Iron Islands -- that afford women with a tiny bit more breathing room and agency than the core of the Kingdoms in the South north of the Dornish Marches. But it's generally that way in our world, and in our world's history, as well.

[the conquering bastard 25]

Until it is stated anywhere that the consort of a prince is called princess, I'd stick with the title 'Lady'. She was never a Queen, after all, despite having been married to a king.

Prince Daemon's first two wives kept the title 'Lady'.. I'm not sure at the moment if Jocelyn Baratheon's title is ever mentioned, but she's never called a princess. Princess Daella, upon her marriage to Lord Arryn, remained a princess (to parallel with Rhaelle.).

How does that work? Your married to the king but not a queen?

I can't even think of a real!life situation where the woman married to the queen isn't referred to by the title of queen. Even HenryVIIIs wife's in their tenure as Henrys wife were called queen even if history has omitted that title when referring to them.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

How does that work? Your married to the king but not a queen?

I can't even think of a real!life situation where the woman married to the queen isn't referred to by the title of queen. Even HenryVIIIs wife's in their tenure as Henrys wife were called queen even if history has omitted that title when referring to them.

Dyanna Dayne died long before Maekar became King. Which means that she was never Queen.

I don't think she'd receive such a title at least 12 years after she died, right?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

How does that work? Your married to the king but not a queen?

I can't even think of a real!life situation where the woman married to the queen isn't referred to by the title of queen. Even HenryVIIIs wife's in their tenure as Henrys wife were called queen even if history has omitted that title when referring to them.

Try Wessx. The wife of the King of Wessex was the wife of the King but not a Queen.

[the conquering bastard 25]

Dyanna Dayne died long before Maekar became King. Which means that she was never Queen.

I don't think she'd receive such a title at least 12 years after she died, right?

That's a techincallity if she had lived she would have been queen

Didn't know about Wessex, thanks BBE

[the conquering bastard 25]

That's a techincallity if she had lived she would have been queen

Didn't know about Wessex, thanks BBE

All of Henrys wives were called queen while married to him. If your talking about Katheirne and the title Dowanger Princess of Wales, after he was ready to wed and bed Anne. Katherine was a crowned and anointed queen same as ,A.B, Anne of Cleves, Catherine Howard, can't remember about Jane Seymour or Catherine Parr.

Even Elizabeth Woodville crowned and anointed,Margrate of Anjou, Isabella of France.... The list goes on.

Catherine de Medici was called queen even though she's remembered by her family name

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

That's a techincallity if she had lived she would have been queen

Didn't know about Wessex, thanks BBE

If she had lived until Maekar's reign, of course she would have been a queen. She died 12 to 20 years before his reign, though, which means she was never a queen.