Northern Conspiracy Jon's Wife?

[Señor de la Tormenta]

´the GNC has been debunked recently by martin and elio... forget about it.

of course theres something there, but is like a 10% of what is written here guys.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Not sure it's quite the same situation. Aegon is actively trying to conquer Westeros militarily, and Jon isn't. He also has something to prove (that he is Aegon), and the Dornish siding with him gives him legitimacy. Jon probably wouldn't even attempt to get the Iron Throne. As for legitimacy, it's a Catch-22. If he can prove he's Rhaegar's son without having to marry her, Dany becomes superfluous. But if he needs to marry Dany to prove he's Rhaegar's son, then there's no benefit to her. Dany and Arianne are not on equal footing here. Dany could become queen without Jon, whereas Arianne would never become queen without Aegon.

I see the distinction now. Thanks for clarifying.

[Luddagain]

Look I buy into the Northern conspiracy in part but I do not see it has much to do with Jon. Look at the Northern Lords

We have Manderly, Sybell Glover and Hormwood who support the Starks but clearly have thrown their lot with Rickon. Rickon is only 6/7 so talk of marriage is a bit silly. Wylla is too old for him - she is 15/16 - GRRM should have made her younger IMHO - perhaps it was a typo and he can make her 10. Now a daughter of Robett Glover might be OK

We have Ryswell and Dustin who are playing their own game. Not sure what it is but I would not trust a Dustin - they were once the Kings of ALL first men and resent the Starks.

We have the Boltons playing their own game

We have Maege Mormant and another Glover who presumably know of the will and will support Jon

We have Alys Karstark now linked to the wildings so we can probably assume that when her brother Harrion returns that he will support Jon, who saved his seat and life

We know nothing of what the hill tribes will do but I am inclined to think they will favour Bran

We know nothing of the Neck but again I think they would support Bran

As for the Riverland lords - i see them supporting Sansa.

So basically while there may be alignment to get rid of Bolton, I see little unity in support of Jon.

[The Academic Wolf]

´the GNC has been debunked recently by martin and elio... forget about it.

of course theres something there, but is like a 10% of what is written here guys.

Not meaning to sound rude, but source for this? I do not remember any of them every mentioning anything about the GNC (or most other theories), but it is probably (even likely) that I have missed something.

[the conquering bastard 25]

Look I buy into the Northern conspiracy in part but I do not see it has much to do with Jon. Look at the Northern Lords

We have Manderly, Sybell Glover and Hormwood who support the Starks but clearly have thrown their lot with Rickon. Rickon is only 6/7 so talk of marriage is a bit silly. Wylla is too old for him - she is 15/16 - GRRM should have made her younger IMHO - perhaps it was a typo and he can make her 10. Now a daughter of Robett Glover might be OK

We have Ryswell and Dustin who are playing their own game. Not sure what it is but I would not trust a Dustin - they were once the Kings of ALL first men and resent the Starks.

We have the Boltons playing their own game

We have Maege Mormant and another Glover who presumably know of the will and will support Jon

We have Alys Karstark now linked to the wildings so we can probably assume that when her brother Harrion returns that he will support Jon, who saved his seat and life

We know nothing of what the hill tribes will do but I am inclined to think they will favour Bran

We know nothing of the Neck but again I think they would support Bran

As for the Riverland lords - i see them supporting Sansa.

So basically while there may be alignment to get rid of Bolton, I see little unity in support of Jon.

What????????

I think you need to read dance again. Your intrigue skills need some work.

Sansa getting the Riverlamd support, no

Dustin and Ryswell, are playing but they are playing FOR Jon

Manderly is playing three sides against the middle he doesn't want to lose.

Hill tribes Jon

Glover owes his seat to Jon same as Karstark

Umber,Mormont strongly support the young wolf, he choose Jon ams that's who they are backing

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Not meaning to sound rude, but source for this? I do not remember any of them every mentioning anything about the GNC (or most other theories), but it is probably (even likely) that I have missed something.

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2kgfy7/spoilers_all_ama_with_authors_of_the_world_of_ice/

lets say northerners are ploting at some degree, but theres not a big network, nor a big master plan.

and I must correct myself, it was just elio and linda.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2kgfy7/spoilers_all_ama_with_authors_of_the_world_of_ice/

lets say northerners are ploting at some degree, but theres not a big network, nor a big master plan.

and I must correct myself, it was just elio and linda.

Yes, it was.

[Northbound3.0]

Jon marries Sansa. The end! :-)

[the conquering bastard 25]

Jon marries Sansa. The end! :-)

Nasty and I'm not talking about the incest or past bro sis relationship. Jon and cringe Sansa, ewwwwww!!!!

[Northbound3.0]

Nasty and I'm not talking about the incest or past bro sis relationship. Jon and cringe Sansa, ewwwwww!!!!

Technically, not brother and sister. It is known. Plus he fits her idea of the dashing heroic knight in shinning armor. :-)

Im just having a bit of fun, of course.

[the conquering bastard 25]

Technically, not brother and sister. It is known. Plus he fits her idea of the dashing heroic knight in shinning armor. :-)

Im just having a bit of fun, of course.

I wasn't talking about the incest or them having grown up thinking they were bro and sis, I can't stand Sansa and love Jon, so this is not an idea I even like to think about seeing as it makes my gag reflex fail.

[Annara Snow]

Technically, not brother and sister. It is known.

Technically, yes they are.

Ask anyone who was adopted or grew in a foster home if they think that their brothers and sisters are not their brothers or sisters since they don't share biological parents. And those people usually aren't even biologically related at all, but it doesn't matter.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Technically, yes they are.

Ask anyone who was adopted or grew in a foster home if they think that their brothers and sisters are not their brothers or sisters since they don't share biological parents. And those people usually aren't even biologically related at all, but it doesn't matter.

Or those of us who are real-life Jon Snows.

My siblings are my half-siblings, but the only father and grandfather I knew were my stepdad & my mom's stepdad. I would never sleep with, marry, or procreate with any of paternal relatives. Nothing of the sort would occur to me.

Sure, the equivalent would be Jon marrying a Tully or a Martell. He could marry Arianne even though I'd find such a marriage taboo and strange. But given that the Starks are portrayed as the most emotionally "normal" Westerosi family, there's not a snowball's chance that Jon sleeps with his sisters in canon. Ever.

What's strange is that people argue that Ned is the only father that Jon will ever recognize, know, or need... but there's more Jon x Stark siblings fanfiction on AO3 than with any non-related characters. Guess incest really is the sweetest taboo for some parts of the readership. /shudders

Because that's another reason I object to it. Incest would change Jon's relationship with all the members of the Stark family he isn't sleeping with, marrying, or procreating with. And it's why I think many people are weirded out by the Targs, but can't really explain why. There's a reason why it's not common in most human societies.

[the conquering bastard 25]

Or those of us who are real-life Jon Snows.

My siblings are my half-siblings, but the only father and grandfather I knew were my stepdad & my mom's stepdad. I would never sleep with, marry, or procreate with any of paternal relatives. Nothing of the sort would occur to me.

Sure, the equivalent would be Jon marrying a Tully or a Martell. He could marry Arianne even though I'd find such a marriage taboo and strange. But given that the Starks are portrayed as the most emotionally "normal" Westerosi family, there's not a snowball's chance that Jon sleeps with his sisters in canon. Ever.

What's strange is that people argue that Ned is the only father that Jon will ever recognize, know, or need... but there's more Jon x Stark siblings fanfiction on AO3 than with any non-related characters. Guess incest really is the sweetest taboo for some parts of the readership. /shudders

Because that's another reason I object to it. Incest would change Jon's relationship with all the members of the Stark family he isn't sleeping with, marrying, or procreating with. And it's why I think many people are weirded out by the Targs, but can't really explain why. There's a reason why it's not common in most human societies.

Now that is.

Most European nobles and kings wed family. Katherine of Argon and Henry VIII were 2 cousins, his parents were cousins on both sides of the tree. He had a claim to the French throne because his grandmother was a French princess.

Mary queen of Scots choose her second husband because he was her double first cousin and the later Steward paid for that with crazy running in the blood.

Don't get me started on the Hapsburg's. Charles V HRE has a jaw so malformed that he couldn't close his mouth and constantly drooled. His grandson Don Carlos was both crazy and malformed. There's a reason the Hapsburg's jaw is a known phase, classic case jay leno it would surprise me to learn he was related to the Hapsburgs.

The Egyptians did brother sister weddingd for thousands of yrs.

Cleopatra VII has only one none Ptolemy relative a Syrian great grandmother. Everyone else OTOH, all Ptolemy relation. She wed both of her younger brothers even if her children were Ceasars and Marc Anthony.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

^ I'd buy all that in relation to Jon Snow if he were raised and socialized to be a LP or a King, but he wasn't. Jon Snow was socialized into the culture of the North.

He is not bedding Sansa or Arya unless he doesn't know it's them. And that's possible, but what narrative purpose would it serve?

[Annara Snow]

The European nobility who wed cousin to cousin for generations did not have those cousins growing up in the same household. In the case of royalty, they usually didn't even grow up in the same country.

In my country and most of the region, extended families used to be very close, sometimes even living in the same household (that was the case with my grandfather's family, who were well-off farmers with a big house and land) or near by, and it's partially still the case even in contemporary times - in urban environments, extended families usually aren't neighbors, but visit each other a lot. I was close with my cousins and second cousins growing up.

And, probably not coincidentally, sex/romance/marriage with a cousin or even a second cousin is taboo for most people - I don't know if it's illegal, but most people don't even consider it, and the Western European nobility/royalty tradition of marrying cousins is seen as a bizarre historical fact similar to the Egyptian tradition of marrying siblings to each other. It's also probably not a coincidence that the term for "cousin" is literally translated "brother/sister from aunt/uncle", and quite a few people shorten it to "he's my brother/she's my sister", especially if they're really close to their cousins. (Which is all the more likely if you're an only child, which is quite frequent these days.)

So, yes, I think it's all about social/family structures (familial and sexual relations don't mix) and Westermarck effect, essentially.

[TheKingoftheSevenKingdoms]

Or those of us who are real-life Jon Snows.

My siblings are my half-siblings, but the only father and grandfather I knew were my stepdad & my mom's stepdad. I would never sleep with, marry, or procreate with any of paternal relatives. Nothing of the sort would occur to me.

Sure, the equivalent would be Jon marrying a Tully or a Martell. He could marry Arianne even though I'd find such a marriage taboo and strange. But given that the Starks are portrayed as the most emotionally "normal" Westerosi family, there's not a snowball's chance that Jon sleeps with his sisters in canon. Ever.

What's strange is that people argue that Ned is the only father that Jon will ever recognize, know, or need... but there's more Jon x Stark siblings fanfiction on AO3 than with any non-related characters. Guess incest really is the sweetest taboo for some parts of the readership. /shudders

Because that's another reason I object to it. Incest would change Jon's relationship with all the members of the Stark family he isn't sleeping with, marrying, or procreating with. And it's why I think many people are weirded out by the Targs, but can't really explain why. There's a reason why it's not common in most human societies.

Jon marrying a Tully or Martell would be perfectly fine under Westerosi standards. Jon and Arianne are only distantly related to each from the line of Aegon IV, and I believe no Stark or Targaryen has married a Tully at least from the lineage provided in TWOIAF. Except of course Ned and Catelyn.

But to your main point, I agree 100%. I don't get why people want Jon to marry Arya or Sansa. Daenerys I can kinda understand - even if I don't like it - but Jon for seventeen years has been raised as if he is Sansa and Arya's half-brother. They consider him their half-brother, and if all of a sudden in the final two books they decide to marry it would creep them out and some northern nobles. Plus, their is no point in either Stark girls marrying Jon. Better and more advantageous marriages can be made. (For Sansa since Arya in no way is going to marry someone. She could take a paramour, but that's it)

[Lady Flandrensis]

If Jon comes back undead, would there be a point to marrying? Could he procreate?

[the conquering bastard 25]

^ I'd buy all that in relation to Jon Snow if he were raised and socialized to be a LP or a King, but he wasn't. Jon Snow was socialized into the culture of the North.

He is not bedding Sansa or Arya unless he doesn't know it's them. And that's possible, but what narrative purpose would it serve?

Nor was I saying he should I was arguing that incest isn't all that uncommon and partially why the books are structured that way as its historically relevent

[the conquering bastard 25]

The European nobility who wed cousin to cousin for generations did not have those cousins growing up in the same household. In the case of royalty, they usually didn't even grow up in the same country.

In my country and most of the region, extended families used to be very close, sometimes even living in the same household (that was the case with my grandfather's family, who were well-off farmers with a big house and land) or near by, and it's partially still the case even in contemporary times - in urban environments, extended families usually aren't neighbors, but visit each other a lot. I was close with my cousins and second cousins growing up.

And, probably not coincidentally, sex/romance/marriage with a cousin or even a second cousin is taboo for most people - I don't know if it's illegal, but most people don't even consider it, and the Western European nobility/royalty tradition of marrying cousins is seen as a bizarre historical fact similar to the Egyptian tradition of marrying siblings to each other. It's also probably not a coincidence that the term for "cousin" is literally translated "brother/sister from aunt/uncle", and quite a few people shorten it to "he's my brother/she's my sister", especially if they're really close to their cousins. (Which is all the more likely if you're an only child, which is quite frequent these days.)

So, yes, I think it's all about social/family structures (familial and sexual relations don't mix) and Westermarck effect, essentially.

That's not true either, Mary Queen of Scots from the age of 5 to 16-18 in the French court with her cousin and betrothed Francis II of house Valois.

It was the royal princesses job to go off and secure alliences. In some cases they left home for strange shores at very young ages.

The difference they didn't grow up as brother and sister or think of themselves as siblings.

I don't ship JS with any of his female relations, Adrianne,Dany, Sansa or Arya.

I was just making a point