since Targaryens had a lot of strange stillborns...

[Zarafrustra]

...would that mean that it wasn't Mirri Maaz Duurs black magic that made Danys child die, that he would have a been a strange stillborn dragon baby in any case

Or

That a lot of Targs fiddled with black magic while pregnant and that led to a lot of grotesque stillborns

Ofc, it could be that because Targs used to experiment on dragons or with dragon blood in their own system that led to these stillborn 'accidents' along the way.

Ionno. Just asking.

[MaesterSam]

I have asked myself this question many times since reading the WB. It seems that deformed, stillborn babies are not at all uncommon among Targaryens. So maybe MMD really had nothing to do with it, the timing was just an unfortunate coincidence for her. The main counterargument to this is that MMD didn't make any attempt to deny being responsible for the baby's death, even once she realized Dany would burn her for it.

I like the idea of pregnant Targs playing with dark magic- but in Maegor's case it was him that could not sire offspring. None of his many wives delivered a living child, and since it's unlikely that they were all into magic, I prefer your third idea. Maybe they mean it literally when they speak of the 'blood of the dragon', maybe some sort of magical merging occurred long ago. It certainly would explain why these stillbirths are not just deformed (such as Tyrion for example), but have clear dragon-like features such as scales, wings or a tail.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

^Maegor's third wife, Tyanna, was a sorceress and alchemist. She confessed that she poisened her co-wives so they all had stillborns and little monsters.

[Winterfell is Burning]

^Maegor's third wife, Tyanna, was a sorceress and alchemist. She confessed that she poisened her co-wives so they all had stillborns and little monsters.

The correct reading would be that Tyanna "confessed" that she was a sorceress and alchemist and she "poisoned" her co-wives.

[C.T. Phipps]

The correct reading would be that Tyanna "confessed" that she was a sorceress and alchemist and she "poisoned" her co-wives.

I took that as sincere because Maegor is stupid enough to have missed the vipers he invited into his house.

[MaesterSam]

The correct reading would be that Tyanna "confessed" that she was a sorceress and alchemist and she "poisoned" her co-wives.

I agree. Tyanna herself also didn't manage to have any children. If she knew what caused the deformed stillbirths (or lack of conception altogether), you would think she would have known how to prevent such problems in her own case.

ETA: Rhaella, wife to Aerys the mad king, also had a large number of stillbirths and miscarriages, and we don't have any reason to believe she was involved in sorcery of any kind.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

As far as I remember Rhaella didn't have any "monster babies". Miscarriages and stillborns can happen to any woman.

Tyanna was a sorceress. She brought Maegor back from coma, remember?

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Perhaps the dragon form of Little Dead Rhaego was standard for Targs, but the grave worms were MMD's doing.

[Lord Varys]

This thing is complicated. We know that Dany's son Rhaego had been alive before his birth, so it very likely that Mirri Maz Duur actually killed him. However, considering the other monstrosities it is very likely that Mirri's spells only brought forth what was already in Rhaego, i.e. his dragon genes/blood.

Maegor is a different matter:

1. There is very good chance that Aegon I is the one who was sterile - Rhaenys would then have conceived Aenys with another man (one of her favorites, probably with Valyrian features or at least blond hair), and Visenya, who was a sorceress, would have used dark magic to either 'impregnate herself' (making Maegor a male clone of herself - which means that his prowess as a warrior comes solely from his mother), or to 'sort of revive' Aegon's semen, helping it along in her womb...

2. If Maegor was conceived through magic, there would have been a price attached. Part of it could be Maegor's overly sadistic personality (his brooding nature, on the other hand, is pretty big sign that inherited many traits of Visenya, who was also not a likable person, apparently), the other part his troubles to conceive children - or rather, the fact that he could only father monstrosities that revealed the magical/unnatural origin of House Targaryen to the eyes of the world...

In any case, Maegor clearly had fertility issues, and the fact that he first impregnated a woman as late as 44 AC (Alys) could be a pretty good hint that magic may have been involved in all the pregnancies of Maegor's wives (Alys, Jeyne, Elinor). And if that was the case, then the usual suspect would have been Tyanna, suggesting that she did not exactly poison Maegor's wives but help him to conceive whatever children he could father with magical means. The fact that she herself never became pregnant could be a pretty big hint that she did not risk it on herself, as she was not sure that she would survive the ordeal. On the other hand, perhaps she poisoned them. Maegor may have not intended to father his heir on a foreign bastard, after all...

[Winterfell is Burning]

I took that as sincere because Maegor is stupid enough to have missed the vipers he invited into his house.

Why didn't Tyanna herself had children then?

[The Mountain That Flies]

There is very good chance that Aegon I is the one who was sterile.

Is there specific evidence for that?

To the OP, it's probably a bit of both. Rhaego may have been aive and well as a normal human infant, but MMD's magic reacted with his half-Targ blood and caused deformities consistent with his bloodline's potential for them.

And not all Targ deformities were based on black magic. While Daemon and Rhaenyra may have been into some crazy stuff, there is no real evidence of either of them dabbling in magic, just stress in her case. Therefore, the deformities are more lined to the genetics of Targs than anything, though how that came to be in their DNA could be linked to some magic when Valyrians first learned to bond with dragons.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

We don't know enough about pre-Conquest Targs to decide if the stillbirths/deformities are a recent development, or if they've always had them.

But it makes sense that there would be SOMETHING that prevented every dragonlord family from raising an army of dragonriders in a couple of generations (think the Freys..). If they need to marry brother to sister to keep their dragon magic stable, then it might also make sense that part of the price they pay for their dragon connection is that there will only be very few siblings in every generation - as a natural "check" on the number of dragonlord descendants. Every song must have its balance.

It's also interesting if seen from the other side: maybe the deformed stillbirths are a necessary blood sacrifice the first Targs accepted as part of their dragon link magic.

The same might be true of Targ insanity (it's just a price of their extraordinary powerful dragon connection), but I also think what we think of as insanity is just what happens to dragonriders who aren't able to bond with a dragon (because all the dragons were gone). Maybe Aerys, Aerion, etc and all the other crayzies were born to be kickass dragonriders, but a frustrated dragon bond leads to I nsanity.

[Lord Varys]

IThere are hints indicating that Aegon I was sterile:

1. Aegon had only one child with both his sister-wives during a decade-spanning marriage.

2. Both Aenys and Maegor are born very late during in the lives of the siblings (Aenys in 7 AC, and Maegor in 12 AC - Rhaenys was 34 when Aenys was born, and Visenya 41 when Maegor was born).

3. Rumors and strange events surround both the births of Aenys and Maegor. Rhaenys supposedly had lovers, and one of the could have fathered Aenys, whereas 'The Sons of the Dragon' reading revealed that Maegor was conceived specifically after Rhaenys' death when Aegon feared sickly Aenys would die, and was already pressed by his Lords to take another wife, as Visenya was rumored to be barren. Visenya then suddenly announced she was pregnant, and was very confident that she would give to a male child. Considering Visenya's advanced age at that time, and her certainty about the gender of her unborn child, it is very likely that she, a rumored sorceress, used spells to either impregnate herself, to help Aegon's weak semen along, to ensure that she got impregnated despite her advanced age, or to determine the gender of her unborn child.

On the other monstrosities:

Stress could also be a way to change a normal child into a monstrosity (Rhaenyra's Visenya). However, we don't know whether Visenya was a healthy child prior to her birth. Rhaego apparently was, as Dany really felt that he was alive prior to Mirri's spell.

Lord Peppsi Cupps,

I first put forth the theory that becoming a dragonrider is actually a necessary thing for a Targaryen to become 'whole' after the reading of 'The Sons of the Dragons'. Aenys really became better and much more stable after he bonded with Quicksilver. And it is interesting that there are no known 'mad Targaryens' of the Rhaegel or Aerys II type during the dragon age. One could make a case that Daemon was afflicted by the same sickness as Aerys II, yet Aerys lacked a dragon to 'balance out' his mood swings (but Daemon had Caraxes).

Maegor is the only example for a 'mad Targaryen' during the dragon age, but he is a special case anyway, and actually only a complete sadist, not necessarily mad in the Rhaegel/Aerys way.

And we could also count Baelor and Aegon the Unworthy among the mad (or sick) Targaryens.

More importantly, a lot of the later Targaryens suffered under their weird dragon dreams/dragon sickness. Aerion most certainly would never came to the conclusion that he was a dragon in human form if he had been a dragonrider. When Aerys II is hit by the 'dragon gene' after Duskendale, his first reaction is to try to hatch dragon eggs to become a dragonrider. When this does not work, the whole 'dragon thing' turns into an obsession with fire (but the dragon thing remains at the core of it, as he apparently believed burning down KL might turn him into a living dragon - which would essentially only be a variation of the miracle Dany pulled off at Drogo's pyre).

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

The insanity / dragon bond thing is interesting to consider in the context of all the Targs who didn't end up crazy after the 150s AC. Were they just not born as dragonriders at all (because so much mixing with non-Targs had happened by then)? Or does something need to happen to trigger the descent into madness, like Duskendale did to Aerys? It might even be that most died young from non-related reasons, and the thing never manifested.

ETA: I didn't consider Daemon to be Targ crazy, but your point about Caraxes as his balance is very good.

[Lord Varys]

I don't think that every Targaryen without a dragon is destined to become insane, but that the 'dragon part/gene/whatever' part of them craves to united with a dragon, and this craving can worsen (or cause) mad tendencies or psychological deficiencies.

Most of the Targaryen before the Dance - essentially all of Jaehaerys' siblings and children - seem to have been stable or even exceptional. Only Saera and Viserra seem to have been 'lively', but neither is described as mad.

If dragons were 'balancing influences', then it may be that the Jaehaerys II's line that Targaryens are either great or mad only become really prominent when they are no dragonriders. Then we have really great Targaryens (Viserys II, Daeron I, Baelor I, the Dragonknight, Daeron II, Daemon Blackfyre Baelor Breakspear, Bittersteel & Bloodraven, Aegon V, Rhaegar) and the mad/bad ones (Baelor I, Aegon IV, Rhaegel, Daeron the Drunk, Aerion, and Aerys II).

And we should, of course, also keep in mind that there was a lot of non-Targaryen blood flowing in the later Targaryens - Larra Rogare came in, and then Mariah Martell, Alys Arryn, Dyanna Dayne, and eventually Betha Blackwood.

Perhaps the lack of a dragon could also allow the good traits of a Targaryen to become more prominent...? However, it seems to be clear that the longing/craving for a dragon (or their return of the dragons in general) as a very strong potential to ruin even the better Targaryens.

[The Snark of Winterfell]

I've been wondering this too, whether MMD affected Rhaego or not.

It's a pretty common theme amongst the Targs:

- Maegor had a bunch, an eyeless monstrosity from Alys Harroway, Elinor Costayne and Jeyne Westerling but it is said that Tyanna of the Tower took responsibility for this.

- Aegon II had a twisted malformed stillborn with a hole in her chest an a stubby scaled tail from Rhaenyra Targ

- Aegon IV had some stilborns

- Tyrion Lannister malformed, demonic eyes and a possible tail. (there is the obvious Aerys Targ theory)

- Daemon Targ had a twisted deformed son to Laena

- In Mantarys, which is closest inhabited place to Valaryia after the the Doom, men are born twisted and monstrous

- Danerys Targ had Rhaego who was a monstrosity with scales and a tail

I've heard it argued that the stories are unreliable because with regard to the stillborns, we don't know the extent of the deformities of all the descriptions, I take it as a theme of Targ babies, and to lead to the speculation of the only secret tag theory I buy, which is Aerys is Tyrion's dad. With that said, how does MMD relate.

I always took it as Targ blood is rooted in magic, which allows for them to ride dragons and dragons are magical beings. The reason for the deformities is just a casualty of the blood magic used all those years ago. Also the confluence of magic led to the doom. So part of me thinks MMD had nothing to do with it, but w/o any conviction, I can be convinced that she traded a life for a life with magic with a compelling argument.

Preston Jacobs, who does those youtube videos (don't want to speak for him, he is skinchanging sweetrobin on these boards) believes in essence that MMD was there sent by Marwyn, using communication through the glass candles to allow for MMD to find Dany. This is why the Cinnamon Wind was at port, which is ship closely associated with Marwyn. He argues her role was to find a way in as an advisor to steal the dragon eggs, but everything went to hell.

Not sure if I buy that, but it's interesting.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Preston Jacobs, who does those youtube videos (don't want to speak for him, he is skinchanging sweetrobin on these boards) believes in essence that MMD was there sent by Marwyn, using communication through the glass candles to allow for MMD to find Dany. This is why the Cinnamon Wind was at port, which is ship closely associated with Marwyn. He argues her role was to find a way in as an advisor to steal the dragon eggs, but everything went to hell.

Not sure if I buy that, but it's interesting.

Yes, MMD was sent to be brutally gang raped by Dothraki horselords (who were likely going to kill her when they were done raping her, because she's a maegi) so that she can help Marwyn, but first she travelled back in time and became godswife to the village which will eventually be attacked by Drogo's khalasar, where Dany was with her eggs (she also knew Dany would save her and she'd be able to worm her way into Dany's confidence).

It all makes sense, if you're using "sense" as a synonym for "buttons".

PS Rhaenyra's stillbirth was with Daemon - if she'd married Aegon II instead, there wouldn't have been a Dance ;)

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

And we should, of course, also keep in mind that there was a lot of non-Targaryen blood flowing in the later Targaryens - Larra Rogare came in, and then Mariah Martell, Alys Arryn, Dyanna Dayne, and eventually Betha Blackwood.

This is what originally got me onto thinking about mixing with non-Targs. Don't forget about the Velaryon blood (Aegon I's mother, Alyssa Velaryon, Daenaera Velaryon), which isn't usually considered a problem, but I think it very much is. Targs married Velaryons to ensure purple eyes and silver hair (so it's a pretty good ruse to think that Velaryon is as good as Targaryen), but the Velaryons were never dragonriders, and were certainly not linked to the Targ house dragons. So we have a "problematic" infusion of non-Targ blood in the person of Aegon I's mother (and so Maegor's grandmother). She was half-Targ herself, but I guess you never know what that might produce?

Just as interesting though is whether some of the ill effects of mixing with non-Targs can be reversed through a few consecutive generations of brother-sister marriages. Why did Jenny of Oldstones' woods witch prophesy that the PtwP would be born from the line of two Targ siblings (whose parents are also siblings)? It's almost as if Jaehaerys II was trying to undo the "damage" inflicted by 3 generations (Aegon V, Maekar, Daeron II) marrying outside the family.

[Lord Varys]

Well, I guess cousin marriages do not 'damage' the incest thing all that much (or cause that much problems for future dragonriders, unless the brother-sister incest is continued as soon as possible). Valaena Velaryon was half-Targaryen herself, and her paternal Velaryon ancestors may also have had Targaryen blood. We know the Velaryons arrived on Driftmark before the Targaryens moved to Dragonstone, but when Visenya was born, the Targaryens had lived about 80 years on Dragonstone, making it very likely that some 'spare daughter/sibling/cousin' of Aenar or his sons/grandsons had already married into House Velaryon, to strengthen the ties between the two houses, especially after the Doom struck.

We don't know whether Valaena Velaryon was dragonrider, but she could have been.

And Alyssa Velaryon also had Targaryen ancestors, either from a Targaryen cadet branch (say, a niece of Aerion), or through Valaena's mother. I'd not be surprised if she was a dragonrider, too. The later Velaryons - Laenor, Laena, and Daenaera - clearly had enough dragonlord blood to become dragonriders (and retain their Valyrian looks).

We should also keep in mind that the Freehold existed for millennia, and the Targaryens back then (and other dragonlord families, too), may not have been able to uphold a brother-sister incest all the time. It is entirely imaginable that a family only had sons for 4-5 generations, or only girls. Then they would have to look for suitable matches in the extended family.

And as I've said elsewhere, I think that most of the brides of Daeron II's sons (i.e. Jena Dondarrion, Aelinor Penrose - she is confirmed in that regard -, Alys Arryn, and Dyanna Dayne) may have had Targaryen blood through the female line (either through one of Rhaena's daughters with Garmund Hightower, or through one of Baela's offspring with Alyn Velaryon), which could mean that their children did have more Targaryen blood than their fathers.

On the promised prince:

That is tricky. George seems to want to make the 'savior(s)' come from a most unlikely line - Jaehaerys was the weakest (and the weirdest) of Egg's sons - sickly and disfigured. His line clearly was 'tainted', as he was sick, and his son even sicker, yet it is also the line which, apparently, preserved more of the Targaryen genes than Duncan (who had black hair, like his mother) and Daeron (who seems to have had normal blond hair). That 'purity of the line' may also explain how such 'prototypical Targaryens' like Rhaegar or Daenerys were born...

[Wmarshal]

Well, I guess cousin marriages do not 'damage' the incest thing all that much (or cause that much problems for future dragonriders, unless the brother-sister incest is continued as soon as possible). Valaena Velaryon was half-Targaryen herself, and her paternal Velaryon ancestors may also have had Targaryen blood. We know the Velaryons arrived on Driftmark before the Targaryens moved to Dragonstone, but when Visenya was born, the Targaryens had lived about 80 years on Dragonstone, making it very likely that some 'spare daughter/sibling/cousin' of Aenar or his sons/grandsons had already married into House Velaryon, to strengthen the ties between the two houses, especially after the Doom struck.

We don't know whether Valaena Velaryon was dragonrider, but she could have been.

And Alyssa Velaryon also had Targaryen ancestors, either from a Targaryen cadet branch (say, a niece of Aerion), or through Valaena's mother. I'd not be surprised if she was a dragonrider, too. The later Velaryons - Laenor, Laena, and Daenaera - clearly had enough dragonlord blood to become dragonriders (and retain their Valyrian looks).

We should also keep in mind that the Freehold existed for millennia, and the Targaryens back then (and other dragonlord families, too), may not have been able to uphold a brother-sister incest all the time. It is entirely imaginable that a family only had sons for 4-5 generations, or only girls. Then they would have to look for suitable matches in the extended family.

And as I've said elsewhere, I think that most of the brides of Daeron II's sons (i.e. Jena Dondarrion, Aelinor Penrose - she is confirmed in that regard -, Alys Arryn, and Dyanna Dayne) may have had Targaryen blood through the female line (either through one of Rhaena's daughters with Garmund Hightower, or through one of Baela's offspring with Alyn Velaryon), which could mean that their children did have more Targaryen blood than their fathers.

On the promised prince:

That is tricky. George seems to want to make the 'savior(s)' come from a most unlikely line - Jaehaerys was the weakest (and the weirdest) of Egg's sons - sickly and disfigured. His line clearly was 'tainted', as he was sick, and his son even sicker, yet it is also the line which, apparently, preserved more of the Targaryen genes than Duncan (who had black hair, like his mother) and Daeron (who seems to have had normal blond hair). That 'purity of the line' may also explain how such 'prototypical Targaryens' like Rhaegar or Daenerys were born...

I think it is very likely Valeana was a sister of Daemon, who was grandfather of Alyssa.

As to daeron's daughter's in laws, they seemed to have been more strategic then blood purity. Jena brought with her the loyalty of the marches and Dyanna(who's kingdom only just joined in) seems to be another insurance, be it her family were known for warring with the Reach. Alys was in to lord Donnel, who proved to be very loyal to Daeron. I do think everyone but Dyanna could have Targ blood though.