R+L=J v. 129

[sj4iy]

http://highlighthollywood.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/scrabotowers.jpg

http://highlighthollywood.com/2014/07/game-of-thrones-season-5-filming-update-this-week-they-filmed-at-scrabo-tower-in-northern-ireland-highlight-hollywood-news/

Wow...I did not actually know about that.

Maybe this isn't far-fetched, after all.

[The Twinslayer]

What? The show has never mentioned the bone way or the princes pass. So they can just place the princes pass in the show where the boneway is in the book and have Jaime and Bronn go through it on their way to Dorne. Wouldn't be that hard

For what it is worth, on the map provided with the Season 1 DVD set, the Prince's Pass is between Nightsong and Skyreach, which is the same location that is provided in the world book for the Tower of Joy. It is not on the way from King's Landing to Sunspear.

[markg171]

He went to Starfall to return Dawn, as far as we know. A place not yet mentioned in the show. They could literally have Jaime say "and then lord Stark travelled to Starfall, the seat of House Dayne to return Arthurs sword to his Family". No show watcher is going to get out a map.

Just a hypothetical suggestion as to how the show can introduce the TOJ if the want 😃

Well he returned Dawn, but in terms of RLJ, he went there because it's a house loyal to the Targaryens and Rhaegar, Ned seemingly had a good relationship with them for whatever reason, and Dorne hadn't yet been conquered (beaten at the Trident, but they had never been conquered by Robert, nor did he bother to). So if he had a newborn baby who happened to be Rhaegar's, it was a good place to go as he had a prior relationship and they were loyal to the Targaryens.

I agree you could just have Jaime say something like what you suggested, but that journey would be hellish as he'd be crossing the desert. Which isn't what you'd expect someone with a newborn baby to attempt. So it wouldn't work if you were trying to lay evidence for RLJ as it would almost guarantee the death of the child.

I think it's more likely that Jaime will just follow the same route that Balon travelled, and along the way someone will start talking Dornish history. And the conversation will go something like this:

Jaime: Dorne seems to be doing well for itself. You Dornish seem to be quite lucky when it comes to wars. During Robert's Rebellion, you weren't touched like the other Kingdoms were. And during the War of the Five Kings, you didn't take part.

Random Dornish: Not true Kingslayer. In both wars, we bled. On the Trident we lost our Prince, your sworn brother Lewyn Martell. Have you forgotten him already?

Jaime: I'm sorry. I had forgotten. It's been 17 years, and Lewyn and I were never close. But by all accounts he fought valiantly at the Trident.

Random Dornish: He did. While his host was breaking around him and he was mortally wounded, he never gave up. He was a Prince that we could be proud of. Dorne mourned hard for its loss when he died. Same as we do now. Oberyn was dearly loved.

How could Jaime be so stupid? Here he was returning Oberyn and the Mountains bones, and he'd forgotten that Oberyn was dead. Of course Dorne had had their own losses.

Jaime: I spoke out of turn. Dorne had its own losses, same as everyone else did.

Random Dornish: And you had yours too here.

Jaime: What do you mean?

Random Dornish: The one who knighted you died here. Surely you haven't also forgotten Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning? He died at the TOJ when Ned Stark came down upon him and your sworn brothers Gerold Hightower and Oswell Whent. A fierce battle went down there, but it was Ned Stark who lived to ride away. An honourable man that Ned. After the battle he returned Arthur's sword to his family at Starfall.

Boom. You know Ned fought 3 KG at the TOJ for some reason, and you know that he went to Starfall afterwards.

[markg171]

http://highlighthollywood.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/scrabotowers.jpg

http://highlighthollywood.com/2014/07/game-of-thrones-season-5-filming-update-this-week-they-filmed-at-scrabo-tower-in-northern-ireland-highlight-hollywood-news/

If this is supposed to be the TOJ, and the place in the promo video is Hardhome, then the show is just making up their own story at this point.

[Alia of the knife]

Nice catch. Rhaella is another figure who is overly silent thus far and whom I'd be interested in learning more about, especially during RR

For some reason, I always pictured in my head Rhaegar weeping in his mothers arms from despair over the conflict between duty and his heart, because I think it might have actually hurt him to hurt Elia.

(I had a friend once who was going out with this guy, but she really wasn't into him, no matter how nice he was.

My friend would rather be hurt herself than to hurt someone else, so she was in despair over having to break it off with him because of how devastated he would be, and he was, but in the end, at least she was honest).

Anything goes you guys. I'm posting this while naked!

:shocked: :leer:

Going "commando" is great so long as your not sitting on leather in the heat of summer.

Rhaegar was already competing though. And he didn't kidnap Lyanna for another year.

But Rhaegar was "meh" about competing and winning. He even got knocked on his arse a lot, (don't tell Dany), until.......

And, Lyanna was only fourteen, the considerate lover/husband of the medieval era waited until the girl was at least fifiteen. But more likely, it may have been that it was the year Aegon was born, and he found out that Elia "would bare him no more children."

With the little bit of Jon-arc that was between Jon escaping Ygritte and her group of wildlings, and Ygritte and co., and Mance and his group attacking (and Stannis saving the day), and the entire season that was between the two events, It´s possible, I suppose, that they take a detour to Hardhome for Jon´s arc. I mean, Jon went to Crasters last season, which was definitly not in the books, so a similar situation could occur here.

I supose it would also sort of depend what Jon´s arc for Winds is... Is he supposed to be dead for long? Be revived/woken up when syncing with another characters arc, and is said character currently behind on this arc? Stuff like that.

With Aerys born in 244 AC, and Rhaella in either 245 or 246, her marriage to Aerys occured at a rather young age.. Rhaegar was born in 259 AC, and depending on when Summerhal occured (and it might have occured later in the year, as Jaehaerys, upon his death in 262 AC, has sat the IT for "scarcely three years"), their marriage took place in 259 AC the latest. Which would have made Rhaella either 14 or 15.

We know that Bonifer put away his lance the day Rhaella and Aerys were married. (I can't find the "official betrothal" part anywhere in the books, though. The source on the wiki is Bonifer Hasty's entry of the app, but as far as I know, his entry doesn's say anything about a betrothal, only about Rhaella's marriage. Perhaps someone is kind enough to check?)

So Rhaella was quite young when she got married, and her "relationship" with Bonifer thus most likely started at a younger age..

Interestingly enough, with Lyanna born in either 266 AC or 267 AC, in 281 AC, she would have been 14 or 15 years old as well..

It would seem so, yes.

Very similar, which sometimes makes me wonder if she would have loved Lyanna, or hated her for fear of what she would do to her son.

Didn't I read somewhere that Aerys had a vision of tKotLT destroying his House?

[The Agency of Sansa Stark]

I thought they said in the first book that Jon's mother was named Wyla?

[The Twinslayer]

I thought they said in the first book that Jon's mother was named Wyla?

Ned Stark, in book 1: "Her name was Wylla, and I would sooner not speak of her."

Book 3, Arya: "Who's Wylla?"

Ned Dayne (Lord of Starfall): "Jon Snow's mother. She's served us for years and years."

The conventional wisdom is that Ned Stark was lying and that Ned Dayne was mistaken.

[The Agency of Sansa Stark]

Ned Stark, in book 1: "Her name was Wylla, and I would sooner not speak of her."

Book 3, Arya: "Who's Wylla?"

Ned Dayne (Lord of Starfall): "Jon Snow's mother. She's served us for years and years."

The conventional wisdom is that Ned Stark was lying and that Ned Dayne was mistaken.

Strange.. I always took Ned Daynes account to be a sort of validation of Ned Starks take

[The Twinslayer]

Strange.. I always took Ned Daynes account to be a sort of validation of Ned Starks take

It is, in the sense that it shows that people in Starfall believe that a long-serving servant of the Dayne's is the mother of Ned Stark's bastard.

The theory, however, is that Ned Stark, Howland Reed and the Daynes entered into a conspiracy to claim that Ned Stark was the father and Wylla the mother in order to protect Jon; because if Robert or Tywin found out that Rhaegar had a son living in Westeros they would see him as a bigger threat than Dany and Viserys, since they are off in Essos, and they would try to kill him. Ned Dayne is not part of the conspiracy because he was not born when it started, just as Robb and Jon have not been told.

[markg171]

But Rhaegar was "meh" about competing and winning. He even got knocked on his arse a lot, (don't tell Dany), until.......

And, Lyanna was only fourteen, the considerate lover/husband of the medieval era waited until the girl was at least fifiteen. But more likely, it may have been that it was the year Aegon was born, and he found out that Elia "would bare him no more children."

The jousting at Harrenhal lasted 5 days. But if Lyanna was the KOTLT and this is what attracted Rhaegar's attention when Aerys sent him out to unmask the KOTLT, then Rhaegar had already been competing for 3 days before he unmasked her. So Rhaegar had already been winning for 3 days straight.

[The Agency of Sansa Stark]

It is, in the sense that it shows that people in Starfall believe that a long-serving servant of the Dayne's is the mother of Ned Stark's bastard.

The theory, however, is that Ned Stark, Howland Reed and the Daynes entered into a conspiracy to claim that Ned Stark was the father and Wylla the mother in order to protect Jon; because if Robert or Tywin found out that Rhaegar had a son living in Westeros they would see him as a bigger threat than Dany and Viserys, since they are off in Essos, and they would try to kill him. Ned Dayne is not part of the conspiracy because he was not born when it started, just as Robb and Jon have not been told.

Thank you!

[Ygrain]

Strange.. I always took Ned Daynes account to be a sort of validation of Ned Starks take

Well, you then have to answer one little question: if Jon's mother is some nobody Wylla, then why didn't Ned ever tell him, what's so supersecret about it? And, of course, quite a bit of the related ones: where is Lyanna's child, what were the promises and the price paid to keep them, what are the lies that Ned lived for fourteen years, what dangerous secrets he is talking about and the like.

Also, there is the little problem with the account of a boy who was not even born at that time so whatever he can say is second-hand knowledge at best, and who says that Ned loved Ashara but knocked up Wylla.

[The Twinslayer]

Well, you then have to answer one little question: if Jon's mother is some nobody Wylla, then why didn't Ned ever tell him, what's so supersecret about it? And, of course, quite a bit of the related ones: where is Lyanna's child, what were the promises and the price paid to keep them, what are the lies that Ned lived for fourteen years, what dangerous secrets he is talking about and the like.

Also, there is the little problem with the account of a boy who was not even born at that time so whatever he can say is second-hand knowledge at best, and who says that Ned loved Ashara but knocked up Wylla

There is precedent for this, with Littlefinger claiming to love Catelyn but being with (and ultimately, marrying) Lysa.

For the next thread it might be interesting to discuss why Ned went to Starfall after the TOJ. It was a long way out of his way, through enemy territory (Dorne had not surrendered yet). Was it really to return Dawn or did he have some other business with the Daynes?

[Alia of the knife]

The jousting at Harrenhal lasted 5 days. But if Lyanna was the KOTLT and this is what attracted Rhaegar's attention when Aerys sent him out to unmask the KOTLT, then Rhaegar had already been competing for 3 days before he unmasked her. So Rhaegar had already been winning for 3 days straight.

But was he?

He may have opted out until he figured out who tKotLT was. After all, I doubt it was that hard.

I daresay that in those days, when nothing was more entertaining than gossip, that news of a certain northern Highlords daughter scrapping like a fishwife with three squires, would quickly make the rounds, and that it would take that long for clever Rhaegar to make the leap to tKotLT, and stop her antics.

[markg171]

But was he?

He may have opted out until he figured out who tKotLT was. After all, I doubt it was that hard.

I daresay that in those days, when nothing was more entertaining than gossip, that news of a certain northern Highlords daughter scrapping like a fishwife with three squires, would quickly make the rounds, and that it would take that long for clever Rhaegar to make the leap to tKotLT, and stop her antics.

Rhaegar was the champion. He couldn't exactly sit matches out otherwise he wouldn't have made it to the final...

[Alia of the knife]

Rhaegar was the champion. He couldn't exactly sit matches out otherwise he wouldn't have made it to the final...

I think there were different types of competition. Robert didn't compete in the same circles as Rhaegar because the melee was more his thing. Rhaegar probably didn't do melee's, so I think it might be what they chose to participate in, and how far they got.

I don't think its like the playoffs. :dunno:

[Alia of the knife]

Also, very cool video.

"The Crow" meets "Depeche Mode." Very "GOT'esque."

Good night.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xau6eu_depeche-mode-waiting-for-the-night_music

[markg171]

I think there were different types of competition. Robert didn't compete in the same circles as Rhaegar because the melee was more his thing. Rhaegar probably didn't do melee's, so I think it might be what they chose to participate in, and how far they got.

I don't think its like the playoffs. :dunno:

There were. But Rhaegar was only champion of the joust at Harrenhal. Not champion of the melee, archery, axe-throwing, horse race, and singing. Just of jousting.

To be champion of the joust, he couldn't just sit matches out.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

So - what are we going to look deeper into, what are we going to discuss in the upcoming issue of the thread? Any wishes?

[MtnLion]

I think there were different types of competition. Robert didn't compete in the same circles as Rhaegar because the melee was more his thing. Rhaegar probably didn't do melee's, so I think it might be what they chose to participate in, and how far they got.

I don't think its like the playoffs. :dunno:

You are correct. Mark hasn't bothered to read the rules for the joust, as usual. In the beginning the four Whent brothers and an uncle were the initial champions. They could be challenged individually by any newcomers. We know that at some point during the jousts (lasting ten days, as I recall, though someone had found an indication it may have lasted longer) the Knight of the Laughing Tree challenged a pitchfork knight (House Haigh), a porcupine knight (House Blount), and the last a knight of two towers (House Frey). There were two more champions which were not challenged. Rightfully the Knight of the Laughing Tree had taken the position of three champions, which would make the total champions number three at that point, unless GRRM has other rules in mind.

ETA: Perhaps by not returning the next day, the KotLT forfeited the position as a champion. Then it reverted to the previous three, as in the end Rhaegar defeats five champions.