Sympathy for the Citadel Conspiracy

[Mithras]

We all loved Marwyn and cursed the grey sheep for poisoning the dragons (which they surely did). We also did not like Luwin for discouraging Bran about his gift.

However, TWOIAF opened an entirely new perspective. We see that magic is evil. It operates on the blood of the innocent. The greater the magic, the greater the need for blood is. The will to power through magic pushes people deeper into corruption.

In fact, we knew all of these from the main series but no one could have known the full scale of the damage. I think the lesson we should deduce from TWOIAF that this corruption caused the LN and the seasons are still imbalanced because of some atrocious magic cast by power hungry fools.

Therefore, I am now more sympathetic to the Citadel Conspiracy and I think the dragons should be exterminated completely in order to restore the balance.

[Tynned Lannistark]

I am personally more skeptical than unsympathetic on Citadel conspiracy.

My problem with the Citadel is not that they are trying to kill magic but that they seem to be ignoring its existence,

Killing off dragons for example is not a bad thing at all. They do not seem to do much good to the world.

Maybe if they help defeat the others I'll change my mind about them.

So in a sense you can say I am with you on that and on general approach towards Citadel.

[The silver dragon]

We all loved Marwyn and cursed the grey sheep for poisoning the dragons (which they surely did). We also did not like Luwin for discouraging Bran about his gift.

However, TWOIAF opened an entirely new perspective. We see that magic is evil. It operates on the blood of the innocent. The greater the magic, the greater the need for blood is. The will to power through magic pushes people deeper into corruption.

In fact, we knew all of these from the main series but no one could have known the full scale of the damage. I think the lesson we should deduce from TWOIAF that this corruption caused the LN and the seasons are still imbalanced because of some atrocious magic cast by power hungry fools.

Therefore, I am now more sympathetic to the Citadel Conspiracy and I think the dragons should be exterminated completely in order to restore the balance.

if the citadel consipcy is true then the measter caused the single worst war in the history of westeros.

and allowed for all further conflict's to happen. (i doubt daeron would have failed to conquer dorne if he had a dragon on his side.)

besides what "balance" are you taking about?

westeros was never a "balance" it's the very definition of extreme both in summer and winter. dragon's have been around just as long a white walkers have and a part of nature.

[Mithras]

My problem with the Citadel is not that they are trying to kill magic but that they seem to be ignoring its existence,

Luwin told Bran that magic was once a real power but now it vanished from the earth just like the Old Races went extinct. I think this is the official policy of the Citadel about magic. And I think that is part of the plan. If everyone thinks that magic does not work anymore, no one would go and try magic.

[Durran Durrandon]

if the citadel consipcy is true then the measter caused the single worst war in the history of westeros.

and allowed for all further conflict's to happen. (i doubt daeron would have failed to conquer dorne if he had a dragon on his side.)

besides what "balance" are you taking about?

westeros was never a "balance" it's the very definition of extreme both in summer and winter. dragon's have been around just as long a white walkers have and a part of nature.

We actually do not know that White Walkers or dragons are part of nature. There is an active hypothesis that the dragons were created by magic interbreeding fireworms and wyverns. I can't back that one up actually. I have have seen it mentioned a lot. The Others are never mentioned before the Long Night, and we have a fair amount of evidence that they are created from humans, and are just magically corrupted humans. There is some implication in TWOIAF that the seasons were normal before the Long Night, so I think the idea that human use of magic has made their world more unmanageable is a reasonable hypothesis.

[The silver dragon]

Luwin told Bran that magic was once a real power but now it vanished from the earth just like the Old Races went extinct. I think this is the official policy of the Citadel about magic. And I think that is part of the plan. If everyone thinks that magic does not work anymore, no one would go and try magic.

going and trying magic would allow relatively cheap science advancement. think valyria or rhoynar.

all in all if the citadel is doing that then all they are achieving, is slowing down human progress on plantos.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Citadel is wrong, misguided, and if they succeed, it could possibly mean the end of life on Planetos.

[The silver dragon]

We actually do not know that White Walkers or dragons are part of nature. There is an active hypothesis that the dragons were created by magic interbreeding fireworms and wyverns. I can't back that one up actually. I have have seen it mentioned a lot. The Others are never mentioned before the Long Night, and we have a fair amount of evidence that they are created from humans, and are just magically corrupted humans. There is some implication in TWOIAF that the seasons were normal before the Long Night, so I think the idea that human use of magic has made their world more unmanageable is a reasonable hypothesis.

they are report's of dragon's before valyria.

the other couldn't be mentioned before the long night. in the world, they cannot seem to bare sunlight. hence the need to attack during a time with no sun.

[Mithras]

going and trying magic would allow relatively cheap science advancement. think valyria or rhoynar.

all in all if the citadel is doing that then all they are achieving, is slowing down human progress on plantos.

Do you consider sacrificing children for bloodmagic human progress? That is what most of the powerful magic seems to be operating on. All those nice and shiny VS blades carry the blood of countless innocents. Is that progress?

[kompaya]

Kill them all. Whatever to cool Targaryen arrogance.

I forgot the death of dragons didnt help..

Ah sry forgot again that Dany has dragons, mustve been cuz she locked em up like dogs.

[TheSovereignGrave]

Do you consider sacrificing children for bloodmagic human progress? That is what most of the powerful magic seems to be operating on. All those nice and shiny VS blades carry the blood of countless innocents. Is that progress?

Blood magic is definitely a big 'no' (unless, of course, the person being sacrificed does it willingly (not coerced into doing it), knows what they're getting into, and the sorcerer explains pretty much everything (including possible failures, and the chance of them); but that's rather exceptional circumstances). But we don't know that all magic requires a blood sacrifice, and I see no issue with magic that doesn't.

[Durran Durrandon]

they are report's of dragon's before valyria.

the other couldn't be mentioned before the long night. in the world, they cannot seem to bare sunlight. hence the need to attack during a time with no sun.

There were reports of dragons before Valyria, but that doesn't mean that they were not created by magic before Valyria, like by whoever created Asshai. Thought my position doesn't rest on this one really. The Others however, we have good indication are magicked humans. It was long implied that Craster's boys were being turned into Others, and it was confirmed in the series.

[Arthur Lannister]

This conspiracy by the Citadel and House Hightower has led to numerous deaths and the loss of a unified realm and an armada of dragons which would be a great advantage in combating the others and the long night. For some reason, I think they probably have an influence in causing the doom of Valyria.

[The silver dragon]

Do you consider sacrificing children for bloodmagic human progress? That is what most of the powerful magic seems to be operating on. All those nice and shiny VS blades carry the blood of countless innocents. Is that progress?

1.) that how Qohor make's valyrian steel (if the tale is true, which it very well might not be). not how Valyria its self made it.

2.)besides not all magic requires blood sacrifice. see, rhonar(it's probably the essayist type of magic though.) and it does even necessarily require the death of said person stannis lived. (if syringe's ever get created on plantos then blood magic would be a great alternative to say fossil fuel's.)

3.) yes it is. nuclear fusion was progress (even though it killed ten's of thousands, and could spell the end of humanity) gunpowder was progress

(even though it killed even more people and facilitated the subjugation of an entire ethnic race {native american})

metallurgy and civilization was progress even though it allowed for people to rage war like never before. no one ever said progress was pretty.

[Pilusmagnus]

There is a slight problem with your theory. How can you know for sure that magic is evil when the person who wrote the book that you get this information from is himself a fucking maester?

[Durran Durrandon]

There is a slight problem with your theory. How can you know for sure that magic is evil when the person who wrote the book that you get this information from is himself a fucking maester?

Why else are the maesters against it?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Magic is no evil.

People are evil.

[Mithras]

This conspiracy by the Citadel and House Hightower has led to numerous deaths and the loss of a unified realm and an armada of dragons which would be a great advantage in combating the others and the long night. For some reason, I think they probably have an influence in causing the doom of Valyria.

I think it is very likely that the creation of those dragons caused the LN in the first place.

Magic is no evil.

People are evil.

Is there a non-evil way to work blood-magic?

[Mithras]

There is a slight problem with your theory. How can you know for sure that magic is evil when the person who wrote the book that you get this information from is himself a fucking maester?

The remnants of some spooky shit happened long time ago can be seen all over the world for all to see (like in Asshai). I don't think any maester can deceive the world about geography or archeology.

[Mithras]

1.) that how Qohor make's valyrian steel (if the tale is true, which it very well might not be). not how Valyria its self made it.

2.)besides not all magic requires blood sacrifice. see, rhonar(it's probably the essayist type of magic though.) and it does even necessarily require the death of said person stannis lived. (if syringe's ever get created on plantos then blood magic would be a great alternative to say fossil fuel's.)

3.) yes it is. nuclear fusion was progress (even though it killed ten's of thousands, and could spell the end of humanity) gunpowder was progress

(even though it killed even more people and facilitated the subjugation of an entire ethnic race {native american})

metallurgy and civilization was progress even though it allowed for people to rage war like never before. no one ever said progress was pretty.

Qohor makes a steel which is not as strong as VS but stronger than any other steel. All Valyrian sorcery was based on fire and blood. I think it is 99.9% true that Valyrians used blood sacrifice in creating VS and perhaps they sacrificed much more people than the Qohorik do today which is why VS was sueprior to all.

George said that magic in his world is not a science. It is unpredictable and unreliable. Equating magic to science and progress does not work in ASOIAF.