Heresy 149

[Black Crow]

He specified that there would be many POV characters throughout the series with some popping in and dropping out. I agree that he would have to change his writing perspective to make such a battle work to Third Person. He has only done that twice, so far. I wonder whether those events were significant?

Ultimately I think that this is going to be the big problem with an epic battle to end it. as we've discussed before GRRM's treatment of the surprisingly few battles we've actually been involved in has been very Shakespearian. That's not to say it can't be done and to a certain extent Shakespear himself pulled it off in the last act of MacBeth, but even there it wasn't so much an "epic" battle as noises off while the principals settled the matter.

[Eira Seren]

Ohhhh i beg to differ ATS:In fact we have precedence for a few of them.In a story where Ned Stark and Karl Drogo's soul will somehow find their way in Jon's Snow's body i think a wee little thing as a 1000yr Old corpse pale in comparison.And a story isn't a story if it becomes true.

The Shrouded Lord has ruled these mists since Garin’s day,” said Yandry. “Some say that he himself is Garin, risen from his watery grave.” “The dead do not rise,” insisted Haldon Halfmaester, “and no man lives a thousand years. Yes, there is a Shrouded Lord. There have been a score of them. When one dies another takes his place.( The sorrows)

The face was old and pale, wrinkled and shrunken. It looks dead. Its mouth was closed and its eyes; its cheeks were sunken, its brow withered, its chin sagging. If a man could live for a thousand years and never die but just grow older, his face might come to look like that.(The black Gate).

"We knew you were to come to us." The Wizard king said " A thousand years ago we knew and have been waiting all this time." We sent the Comet to show you the way..........( House of Undying Vision).

Oh yeah the decked out Wizards in their jewels and beautiful robes were revealed to be pale cold corpses underneath the corrupted blue heart.

That's true. There's a lot of undead in the series aside from the WW.

Well, two of the five known end-gamers keep having dreams of epic battles in the Riverlands. How would a final battle look like for Bran? You mean when he puts all of the weirwoods into regiments and smashes them into the armies of the Others, Dothraki, and the Dragons at the Great Battle for the Trident? Heck, yes, that's what Bran is going to see: Whomping Weirwoods. At least, that's what Addicted to Hescox has told me.

Admit it, you are very fond of ATS, despite disagreeing with most of his theories.

[King Tyrion XX]

in the books, we have no reason to think there there is a 1000's of years old man stalking around the North called the Night's King.... Of course, this is not news to anyone...

Jon is the closest thing this story has to a 'big bad guy'. Jon will fulfill the present day role of the Night's King, and I think many of the wildings know it... This is why Yigrette said "An Evil Name" when Jon snow told here who he was... Jon will go over to the dark side in TWOW... Jon & Bran are the only two characters who could possibly be powerful enough to warg entire armies & bind the men to their wills, & it will obviously not be Bran's

Jon and Bran can warg entire armies? What constitutes an entire army?

[King Tyrion XX]

Please, let me take your theory out behind the woodshed and put it out of its misery.

It's a good enough theory to be shutdown aggressively with banning of members if discussed on the main board. Can't think of any other theory like that.

[Joe Pine]

Hi, I'm catching up.

A post by Black Crow caught my eye in terms of the time line, the Starks and the Night King /Long Night, I think Mr Martin has me sufficiently vague in my understanding of the prehistory in The North that I could buy a version of events where The Starks are initially dark or evil enough to ally with the Others to control men in the North. I am happy to assume that the Starks may have controlled territory beyond the wall or had an extended realm as Kings of Winter. 'Winter is Coming' might suggest something of a threat to men in the north.

The point on a flood event drowning the Iron Islands as much as flooding the Neck is very interesting. (At same time as the Arm of Dorne to Essos possibly?)

On the three page treatment or summary to publishers from 1993, I think it's of interest, but we're 20 years on from it. The initial position of a Stark vs Lannister feud certainly evolved into a denser conflict with more protagonists and a more original concept of one of the Great Houses being extinguished (or seeming to be), I think the evolution of the characters is to be welcomed, more greyness for everyone rather than the obvious goodies v baddies.

From 1993, I think we have to take on board the success of the Lord of the Rings film series, and a that Mr Martin was aware that he had to take another direction in his writing and to not have explicit 'great evil' and 'great good' , I very much doubt that his original plans for The Others are still the same and I see an evolution in his thinking related to the Green Men, Children of the Forest, Greenseers, The Three Eyed Crow and Bran.

The split of the initial characters traits and activities listed by Mr Martin into other characters in the actual series of books would maybe have me thinking the revelation of those pages is a curve ball for the fandom, something to get excited over whilst other things might be afoot.

I think the redacted paragraphs are interesting but may only serve within Mr Martin's more limited pitch at that time rather than the story we have in place at the end of Dance. I'd laugh like a drain if the theorists on reddit do figure it out completely.

As a last point, I'm not bothered by the revelation of the Others in the show, I have accepted that what works in the books might not work visually, I think the show had to reveal what happened to Craster's boys, but the scene with the baby being other-fied maybe has that bit bigger relevance. If the paths of the show and the books have diverged, then so be it, I think Season 5 May lead to more plots being reassigned to different characters and I accept it as a reinterpretion of the source books.

[Matthew.]

All things are possible and as you've probably gathered by now I personally would be disappointed if all of this wrapped in an epic battle. What we've just read is a sales pitch for a "high fantasy" - what in my say used to be "sword and sorcery" - where an epic battle comes as part of the furniture. I would rather hope that as the years have gone by and the complexity increased and with it the moral ambiguities been explored, an ending which basically entails "cutting the crap and wrapping it up with a battle where everybody dies", is becoming more unlikely. I hope for better out of all this.

I always imagined that the climax would be a giant mess of concurrent events - battles at the Trident, the Wall, assassinations, maybe some crazy stuff going on at King's Landing - something that would allow all of our major POVs to still play a significant part in the endgame. Trying to use a battle to wrap everything up neatly is problematic, but at least a war victory is something that has to be earned; having the WW/wight problem resolved outside of battle by a lone POV could be deus ex machina if not handled properly.

I think this is going to come down to execution, and how invested we are in all of the characters, as opposed to whether or not he resolves every lingering problem in the least predictable, least obvious way possible; subverting tropes cannot be an end unto itself.

[PrettyPig]

It's a good enough theory to be shutdown aggressively with banning of members if discussed on the main board. Can't think of any other theory like that.

There is much truth to this. Out of all the crackpot and troll threads that pop up regularly, there is only one topic that is routinely 'disappeared' into the far reaches of the Westeros.org gulag never to be seen again.

Not saying that makes it true of course, but it certainly is interesting.

[Urrax2]

... Out of all the crackpot and troll threads that pop up regularly, there is only one topic that is routinely 'disappeared' into the far reaches of the Westeros.org gulag never to be seen again....

I'm confused. Dare you speak its name?

[JNR]

All things are possible and as you've probably gathered by now I personally would be disappointed if all of this wrapped in an epic battle.

Even if there such a battle, I would imagine it's handled in a manner more similar to Tolkien than, say, Jordan.

The Return of the King continues on for hundreds of pages after Sauron is finally defeated, a sequence some would call anticlimax and others would call directly inspired by the political and cultural aftermath of WW II... though of course Tolkien is notorious for his cordial contempt for allegory.

As for the premise that GRRM doesn't really do proper battles, I'd largely agree -- he's much more interested in the buildup and the fallout than in thousands of men pissing their armor and swinging desperate axes in every direction.

Even so, though, the Battle of the Blackwater seems a powerful exception, very well rendered throughout, and I can easily imagine he'd want to trump that down the road.

I'm confused. Dare you speak its name?

I believe it's the theory that Mance is Rhaegar.

[wolfmaid7]

The outline looks very different than what we have in terms of how things arrived at their conclusion. For instance how Cat ,Robb and Joff died is different but they are still dead.Sansa didn't bare Joff a child and Dany didn't take revenge for Viserys. I do wonder about other things though that seem a bit intriguing and i'm neglecting how the Outline arrived at in,but what you guys think aboout Jaime being King and Bran and Jon being estranged?

I know we talked a bit about Bran and Jon,but if the Iron Throne is still relavant Jaime on the Throne???

[wolfmaid7]

That's true. There's a lot of undead in the series aside from the WW. Wights- fixed that for yuh :D

Exactly, and i don't find it a far cry if the CH's is the NK and he's a 1000yrs old. He could have been sleeping for all we know,but to put things in a bit of prospective.

Leaf said CH's was killed long ago,now coming from a people whose life span "possibly" measures in the hundreads( Leaf could be 800yrs for all we know) her saying he was killed a long time ago shouldn't be taken lightly.

[Matthew.]

I know we talked a bit about Bran and Jon,but if the Iron Throne is still relavant Jaime on the Throne???

I doubt Jaime will sit the Iron Throne at any point, buuuut... I've been pushing hard recently for the idea that the "Red Sword" is going to be forged in the Riverlands, and that Jaime will play an integral role in that forging.

The biggest barrier to his politcal progression would be his status in the Kingsguard, but I have a feeling that's all over once Tommen is dead; if Aegon VI or a Littlefinger pawn take King's Landing, there's no way Jaime keeps his title. With Kevan and Tywin dead, and Cersei following before too long (valonqar), Jaime may become a rallying point for the houses of the West by default; even more so if Westeros descends into total anarchy with Daenerys invading, and possibly the Wall failing.

I can see the Seven Kingdoms being really divided by the beginning of aDoS-- What's left of the Lannisters in the West, the Tyrells going to war with Dorne + Aegon VI, Stannis in the North (I hope :cool4: ), Euron at sea, and Littlefinger and Sansa in the Vale.

[PrettyPig]

Ohhhh i beg to differ ATS:In fact we have precedence for a few of them.In a story where Ned Stark and Karl Drogo's soul will somehow find their way in Jon's Snow's body i think a wee little thing as a 1000yr Old corpse pale in comparison.And a story isn't a story if it becomes true.

The Shrouded Lord has ruled these mists since Garin’s day,” said Yandry. “Some say that he himself is Garin, risen from his watery grave.” “The dead do not rise,” insisted Haldon Halfmaester, “and no man lives a thousand years. Yes, there is a Shrouded Lord. There have been a score of them. When one dies another takes his place.( The sorrows)

The face was old and pale, wrinkled and shrunken. It looks dead. Its mouth was closed and its eyes; its cheeks were sunken, its brow withered, its chin sagging. If a man could live for a thousand years and never die but just grow older, his face might come to look like that.(The black Gate).

"We knew you were to come to us." The Wizard king said " A thousand years ago we knew and have been waiting all this time." We sent the Comet to show you the way..........( House of Undying Vision).

Oh yeah the decked out Wizards in their jewels and beautiful robes were revealed to be pale cold corpses underneath the corrupted blue heart.

Out of curiosity (and I apologize if this has been done to death), has there been discussion of that specific time reference of "a thousand years ago" and all the known events that seem to coalesce around that period?

It was something I noticed on reread (but have not tallied up into a collection yet) - most of the major players run up against some direct reference to some event of significance that is said to have occurred roughly 1000 years ago. Granted, I understand that this is a very typical and generalized frame of reference that can easily translate to "a really long time ago", but this particular phrasing seems to have purpose in the novels.

The HotU quote that wolfmaid provided above made me think of it. It dovetails with another mention by Hizdahr that it has been a thousand years since Meereen last had a king, and several more not inclusive of those above that I can't remember off hand. I wondered what pattern would emerge going back approx 1000 years that would be significant for those in 300 AC.

If there has been discussion of this in Heresies Past, I would love to read it.

[Balerion06]

Holy hell be damned, I was just over in the General section and got barraged with a bunch of posts about how the colours green and black represent Jon's rightful claim to the Iron Throne and his destiny as a super duper Targaryen.

I think 90% of this board is a little too invested in who boinked who to produce he who knows nothing....

[wolfmaid7]

I doubt Jaime will sit the Iron Throne at any point, buuuut... I've been pushing hard recently for the idea that the "Red Sword" is going to be forged in the Riverlands, and that Jaime will play an integral role in that forging.

The biggest barrier to his politcal progression would be his status in the Kingsguard, but I have a feeling that's all over once Tommen is dead; if Aegon VI or a Littlefinger pawn take King's Landing, there's no way Jaime keeps his title. With Kevan and Tywin dead, and Cersei following before too long (valonqar), Jaime may become a rallying point for the houses of the West by default; even more so if Westeros descends into total anarchy with Daenerys invading, and possibly the Wall failing.

I can see the Seven Kingdoms being really divided by the beginning of aDoS-- What's left of the Lannisters in the West, the Tyrells going to war with Dorne + Aegon VI, Stannis in the North (I hope :cool4: ), Euron at sea, and Littlefinger and Sansa in the Vale.

I myself doubt there would still be a Monarchy,but it's interesting Ned on returning to KL and seeing Jaime on the throne after he slayed the Mad King.Its one of those images that stands out in light of the Outline and possible foreshadowing.I have this hunch Arya is the Valonqar,who will kill Cersei with Tommen's face :crying: Poor kid the innocent seldom see a ripe old age.It will be interesting to see how Jaime's arc concludes .I use to seriously want him dead but i think George can make an honerable Knight out of him yet

Out of curiosity (and I apologize if this has been done to death), has there been discussion of that specific time reference of "a thousand years ago" and all the known events that seem to coalesce around that period?

It was something I noticed on reread (but have not tallied up into a collection yet) - most of the major players run up against some direct reference to some event of significance that is said to have occurred roughly 1000 years ago. Granted, I understand that this is a very typical and generalized frame of reference that can easily translate to "a really long time ago", but this particular phrasing seems to have purpose in the novels.

The HotU quote that wolfmaid provided above made me think of it. It dovetails with another mention by Hizdahr that it has been a thousand years since Meereen last had a king, and several more not inclusive of those above that I can't remember off hand. I wondered what pattern would emerge going back approx 1000 years that would be significant for those in 300 AC.

If there has been discussion of this in Heresies Past, I would love to read it.

You know i don't recall such a discussion taking place,though there was a brief conversation about The Age of Heroes beginning and possible ending.But that's a really good idea/point you raised.

[wolfmaid7]

Holy hell be damned, I was just over in the General section and got barraged with a bunch of posts about how the colours green and black represent Jon's rightful claim to the Iron Throne and his destiny as a super duper Targaryen.

I think 90% of this board is a little too invested in who boinked who to produce he who knows nothing....

I had to take a look because i was what? Nowayyyyyy. I fell sorry for the OP his thread got hijacked,but now we know the color Black signifies legitamacy and therefore Jon is the legitamate son of R+L. Oh and Green means you are a Usurper....Go figure.

[Balerion06]

I had to take a look because i was what? Nowayyyyyy. I fell sorry for the OP his thread got hijacked,but now we know the color Black signifies legitamacy and therefore Jon is the legitamate son of R+L. Oh and Green means you are a Usurper....Go figure.

You know, Martin having to plan out and come up with all these hundreds of incredibly obscure colour coded clues throughout the books about Jon's amazing amazingness would explain why these books take so long :lmao:

[PrettyPig]

You know i don't recall such a discussion taking place,though there was a brief conversation about The Age of Heroes beginning and possible ending.But that's a really good idea/point you raised.

I don't have e-copies to search for that phrasing in all 5 books, but I put it on my mental to-do list after it had cropped up for the third or fourth time across multiple POVs. Pegging it as the era of the Age of Heroes would make a lot of sense as *whatever* went down in AoH on Westeros seemed to have involvement with/parallel to events in Essos. 'A thousand years ago' may be the key, the 42 of the current story.

[Black Crow]

Holy hell be damned, I was just over in the General section and got barraged with a bunch of posts about how the colours green and black represent Jon's rightful claim to the Iron Throne and his destiny as a super duper Targaryen.

I think 90% of this board is a little too invested in who boinked who to produce he who knows nothing....

I'm not going to bother I think... Instead I think your last sentence is pretty well on the mark. Its not just the faithful on the R+L=J thread because far too much significance in general terms is being invested in the question of Jon Snow's parentage and the implications thereof.

The story we know has moved very far and in so many different directions from that 1993 synopsis, but yet at the same time in other ways although it has inevitably evolved in strange and interesting directions in GRRM's own mind over the last 20-odd years its still the same story. Some roles have been swapped and circumstances have changed, but the basic story is recognisably still there and its not about the mystery of Jon Snow and how the secret of his birth will alter the destiny of the world. As I pointed out earlier the only significance attaching to his bastardy in the synopsis is that the reveal will supposedly remove a barrier to Jon and Arya getting it on. In short the obsession with R+L=J and above all the significance attached to it make it difficult to believe that the faithfull are reading the same book and it certainly isn't the book described in the synopsis.

How far the book has changed from his early vision is open to debate of course but since the major themes are still present I find it difficult to believe that he is now writing the Mystery of Jon Snow instead of the Game of Thrones outlined in the synopsis

[Black Crow]

You know, Martin having to plan out and come up with all these hundreds of incredibly obscure colour coded clues throughout the books about Jon's amazing amazingness would explain why these books take so long :lmao:

Indeed, although my own theory is that the delay is down to the finding ways to insert the plethora of very carefully crafted references to snow and kings in the unlikeliest places.

On the other hand I do fairly clearly recall an SSM in which he said that all the clues needed to work out Jon Snow's parentage were to be found in AGoT, I really don't know why he bothers year in year out finding places to carefully insert those sneaky references to colours and snow in the ever expanding later volumes