Black Crow Posted February 5, 2015 Author Share Posted February 5, 2015 But I must say, Wind is not Ice. You've never been out in an ice storm then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 5, 2015 Author Share Posted February 5, 2015 Gotta go to what's generally referred to as work, but a last hasty thought before I go. I'm still very much inclined to link the children and the blue-eyed lot and think them an unnecessary complication if they're not. Its argued over these last few pages that they are not Ice but I'd consider the season. We see and hear tell of the children as summer children, but what happens when it gets cold. As I've said upthread I'm not suggesting that they bring the Winter but rather that when Winter comes they tailor their magic accordingly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eira Seren Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 There, we get into the nuanced hierarchy that has become known as the Others. BC's favorite topic :laugh: In my brain, where I'm always right, the Original Others were created by this described effrontery to the Old Gods: the destruction of weirwoods. Eventually, the cold winds blow, and the Original Others move south with them. The Long Night falls upon Westeros. It seems at least one of them was female. The pale woman was glimpsed from atop the Wall, by the 13th Lord Commander. In my world, he's the Last Hero. And his 12 predecessors died in their epic quest to learn magics from the Children that might help them win back what they had lost. Apparently they succeeded, because they're building a big wall. In my mind, the 13th LC is also a Builder of the Wall. And his name is likely Bran. Every Lord Commander has left the Wall higher than he found it, after all, so they're all Builders anyway :) Anyway, back to my story . . . he's up there Building the Wall, while the Others are in retreat. Then he catches sight of this pale woman. In this way of thinking, there are already Original/Ancient Others about, and as a last resort during their retreat, the pale woman beds the Lord Commander/Last Hero. By day, he remains a Hero. A sworn brother. A scion of the north. The Others cannot stand against him . . . By night, he develops a crazy superiority complex, declares himself King, and his mistress Queen. He entrances his sworn brothers, bending them to his will with strange sorcery. He makes sacrifices to the Others, rather than offering them the pointy end of some dragonsteel. He's a control freak, and likes being kneeled to. My guess is that rather than being "unable to stand against" the "Last Hero," the Others were bowing to their puppet/King. Interesting read. . . . I do still like the idea of the ancient Others, am just not reconciled to how they fit in to my own crackpot. as to the last part you may want to ask Wolfmaid for the name of her new agent, since some of it was getting a bit :whip: , and that's quite marketable right now. throw in a vampire and you're good to go :lol: Me too. Nice to agree with you again, finally ;) ETA: Just mulling this over... it may be she's more like an ancient spirit/demigoddess who only temporarily assumed human form in order to seduce the 13th LC. At other times, maybe she's the wind. :cheers: nice one. And don't worry, am cozy and comfortable with healthy disagreement, a variety that's rare and too infrequently found in other parts of the forum. Gaah... I hate it when I toss a small pebble into a still pond at bedtime and then come downstairs to find not ripples but more than three pages of winter storm! :commie: :commie: :commie: OK, before I read through again there are a couple of general points: I'm glad GRRM hasn't written the synopsis because quite honestly the term cheesy doesn't even begin to cover it. Reading it, or rather the language in which it is couched reminds me of a synopsis for Winds of Winter which appeared [i think] on Amazon a couple of years back and was very promptly rubbished. I don't recall the exact words but it spoke of the twin threats from the mad queen and the blue-eyed lot, and how the Lion and the Wolf must hunt together and how there had to be a journey up into the frozen wastes... A google search might turn up something but it sounds very much like one of the redacted bits. Secondly, the way GRRM breaks it down to its core elements at the beginning is interesting. The story is about the rivalry between the Lannisters and the Starks, and then the twin threats from the Dragon Queen and the Dothraki in the east and the blue-eyed lot up in the snow. That's straightforward and I'd say is still the core of what we're reading even if the execution has changed somewhat. Thirdly there are a couple of significant omissions. First we have the half forgotten demons [of snow and ice and cold] up north, but while the leaders of the other major players - such as Danaerys Targaryen and even Mance Rayder are mentioned, there's no mention of the Nights King or the Great Other or anybody else leading said demons, which emphasises that there is a mystery here as to who they are and why. The other significant ommission is the absence of any reference to "the central mystery", ie; Jon Snow's parentage and Targaryen destiny. OK that might be one of the redacted bits but given that there isn't even the hint of a mystery about Eddard Stark's bastard I find that interesting. Well, what can you expect, we're starved for new material in here!!! We did try leaving you a few juicy tidbits :) The only connection to the Jon Snow's parents mystery I found were when he noted that he and Arya were just tortured over it all until the reveal of Jon's parents. In which case I'm guessing whatever they found out alleviated that particular problem. Maybe Jon is doomed to fall in love with fakeArya (unJon, that is. . . it is known!) And I like your assessment of the story framework. I always thought there was a super important reason for the Prologue to AGOT featuring the Others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eira Seren Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Indeed :) But I must say, Wind is not Ice. I think they are one. ETA: I might as well say it, since am still writing my essay but not sure yet when the last section will be done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eira Seren Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 What would have offended the Old Gods (or greenseers?) to cause this type of dark magic? The two offenses we've seen that still leave a visceral impact for the humans and that linger in the tales and histories are the guest right and kinslaying. Is it possible that these First Men somehow violated both? If there was some sort of marriage to seal the Pact these First Men could have murdered a bunch of Children or "traitorous" First Men who were either within their families or their in-laws (is the ASOIAF term good families?). This kinslaying might then have taken place at the wedding banquet to seal the Pact or one celebrating the birth of the first child from the First Man/Children marriage, thus violating guest right as well as kinslaying. If it was at a wedding banquet, I would call this the White Wedding. Meant to add earlier that the guest right idea is a good one, I think Wolfmaid posted a link a few months ago to a source about the good people (am paraphrasing here), and if you took their land but didn't leave them anything nice in return you could expect some problems. So I guess the good folk allowed the First Men guest right, and in return, the First Men took whatever they wanted. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Could be, but I think you're seeing spies in every corner. GRRM, by way of his amazing, and painful writing, has turned us all into Cersei, thinking there's a catspaw around every corner. Or Reek, we're all too afraid to think someone is actually trying to help. It must be a trap!!! Now those icy souls holding shimmering blades over us, mocking us with laughter, must be our friends! Bran, Bran it rhymes with Ran... Does the quote below sound like the introduction of a secret agent of the Others? Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks. Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live. "Why?" Bran said, not understanding, falling, falling. Because winter is coming. "Seeing spies where there is none" You lost me,or you definitely misinterpreted what i said .I'm not proposing a friendship or that the Popsicles are friends.As i said they aint nothing but pawns.We have several typs of accords in this story already. One minute High Garden is with Renly against the Lannisters the next minute there shaking hand with the Lannister with fingers crossed behind their backs. One minute Roose it at Robbs wedding "riding down the Twins smoking weed an sipping on babarouch" next minutes he's stabbing Robb in the back. One minute the COTF are shaking hands with the Starks and whoever next minute they are in bed with the Warg King getting kicked in the butt by said Starks. All this to say friendship is a fickled word and i for one dont think it coinkydink the author penned Jon to think along the lines of: Wights are monstrous, unnatural creatures. Abominations before the eyes of the gods. You … you cannot mean to try to talk with them?[13] Jon replies Monsters they may be, but they were men before they died. How much remains? The one I slew was intent on killing Lord Commander Mormont. Plainly he remembered who he was and where to find him ... My lord father used to tell me that a man must know his enemies. We understand little of the wights and less about the Others. We need to learn. I will go ahead and repeat my earlier statement, the Wights and WWs are instruments Jon can wrest,and i will be shocked that we don't see wights fighting wights at the end of this. Now I see where the Lyanna comment from a day or two ago comes in! This is why I lurv Heresy! wow, there are some really interesting connections there between Jon's crypt dreams and Jamie's dream. . . the one where he sees his mother. . . Word!! Gaah... I hate it when I toss a small pebble into a still pond at bedtime and then come downstairs to find not ripples but more than three pages of winter storm! :commie: :commie: :commie: OK, before I read through again there are a couple of general points: I'm glad GRRM hasn't written the synopsis because quite honestly the term cheesy doesn't even begin to cover it. Reading it, or rather the language in which it is couched reminds me of a synopsis for Winds of Winter which appeared [i think] on Amazon a couple of years back and was very promptly rubbished. I don't recall the exact words but it spoke of the twin threats from the mad queen and the blue-eyed lot, and how the Lion and the Wolf must hunt together and how there had to be a journey up into the frozen wastes... A google search might turn up something but it sounds very much like one of the redacted bits. Secondly, the way GRRM breaks it down to its core elements at the beginning is interesting. The story is about the rivalry between the Lannisters and the Starks, and then the twin threats from the Dragon Queen and the Dothraki in the east and the blue-eyed lot up in the snow. That's straightforward and I'd say is still the core of what we're reading even if the execution has changed somewhat. Thirdly there are a couple of significant omissions. First we have the half forgotten demons [of snow and ice and cold] up north, but while the leaders of the other major players - such as Danaerys Targaryen and even Mance Rayder are mentioned, there's no mention of the Nights King or the Great Other or anybody else leading said demons, which emphasises that there is a mystery here as to who they are and why. The other significant ommission is the absence of any reference to "the central mystery", ie; Jon Snow's parentage and Targaryen destiny. OK that might be one of the redacted bits but given that there isn't even the hint of a mystery about Eddard Stark's bastard I find that interesting. See what you started. Also there is no mention of the COTF or the 3ec. That whole element is gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 wouldn't it be nice if she could find it in her to use some of Pervy Pete's machiavellianism against him? Sure. But "nice" isn't controversial; nice is what people tend to want. Also, the one doesn't exactly preclude the other. GRRM is fond of putting his characters through challenging situations and then giving them back some power, as he's certainly done with Arya. So I wouldn't feel very shocked if a controversial Sansa chapter was eventually succeeded by a much less controversial one in which she becomes that same maid again, slaying a savage giant ...as the Ghost of High Heart once dreamed. The suggestion of Jon's parentage is in there, though. It's absolutely suggested that there's something extraordinary: "...until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book." Exactly what that secret is seems not very apparent. I've read in another place that this all but confirms something, but I just have to laugh at that. It's like being told the sky will not be blue today, and concluding that that confirms it will be red. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eira Seren Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 "Seeing spies where there is none" You lost me,or you definitely misinterpreted what i said .I'm not proposing a friendship or that the Popsicles are friends.As i said they aint nothing but pawns.We have several typs of accords in this story already. One minute High Garden is with Renly against the Lannisters the next minute there shaking hand with the Lannister with fingers crossed behind their backs. One minute Roose it at Robbs wedding "riding down the Twins smoking weed an sipping on babarouch" next minutes he's stabbing Robb in the back. One minute the COTF are shaking hands with the Starks and whoever next minute they are in bed with the Warg King getting kicked in the butt by said Starks. All this to say friendship is a fickled word and i for one dont think it coinkydink the author penned Jon to think along the lines of: Wights are monstrous, unnatural creatures. Abominations before the eyes of the gods. You … you cannot mean to try to talk with them?[13] Jon replies Monsters they may be, but they were men before they died. How much remains? The one I slew was intent on killing Lord Commander Mormont. Plainly he remembered who he was and where to find him ... My lord father used to tell me that a man must know his enemies. We understand little of the wights and less about the Others. We need to learn. I will go ahead and repeat my earlier statement, the Wights and WWs are instruments Jon can wrest,and i will be shocked that we don't see wights fighting wights at the end of this. . . . :agree: If Jon survives, I absolutely agree something will happen there. Sure. But "nice" isn't controversial; nice is what people tend to want. Also, the one doesn't exactly preclude the other. GRRM is fond of putting his characters through challenging situations and then giving them back some power, as he's certainly done with Arya. So I wouldn't feel very shocked if a controversial Sansa chapter was eventually succeeded by a much less controversial one in which she becomes ...as the Ghost of High Heart once dreamed. It's absolutely suggested that there's something extraordinary: "...until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book." Exactly what that secret is seems not very apparent. I've read in another place that this all but confirms something, but I just have to laugh at that. It's like being told the sky will not be blue today, and concluding that that confirms it will be red. Well, that's a far more interesting suggestion than the previous one. I wasn't always a big fan of Sansa, but it bugs me to see her picked on simply for being a typical teenage girl, I mean, sheesh. Really interesting is that GRRM changed her storyline quite a bit, I wonder why he made that choice but applaud it, it makes it harder for me to dislike her while at the same time her naivete in KL really irks me. Tyrion falling for Arya. . . that one seemed odd to me. I guess time will tell. In the meantime I'll just have to keep my feminist fantasies from getting out of hand :) But let's say she goes through that cycle, a kind of death/rebirth and the Ghost of HH is right. . . . then maybe she'd be completing a kind of circuit much like that of the Maid of the 7, and also the older pagan goddesses. . . As for Jon's parents. . . all it seems to prove is that if Jon and Arya had hooked up, they wouldn't have to be so concerned once they knew who his parents really are. g'night all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tyrion XX Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I can see it now ......ehem Jon's POV: Locked in the throws of passion, she rode him towards oblivion.Her red hair very much like Ygritte's and yet wasn't cascaded down her breasts.She was a tiny thing but skilled in the art of pleasing men .He knew he should be getting information from the wench but not yet...gods not yet.Wanting to prolong the experiance he absent mindingly thought he should ask the Lady Melissandre if a glamour has an expiration date.Hoping that he didn't have to be glamored to look like another filthy Lannister yes man to accomplish what needed to be done.A small yelp yanked him back as he hit a spot and the wench bucked wildly seizing and releasing him,seizing and releasing him.A feeling shot up his spine and his own release began deep within her. Her head flew back and came again toward him,this time the red hair and painted face was gone and dark grey eyes peered down at him. "I use to mess up that hair" he thought as his stomach went tight and his heart stopped.He shoved her so hard she went flying backwards. "It can't be" he said ,as she popped up from the foot of the bed a smile broke across her face. "Jon" she yelled and flung herself in his arms.He returned the embrace while thinking " the gods shall surely curse me for this." End scene. Hahaha! All while Bran watches from a tree?Perfect time for Benjen's return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tyrion XX Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 He was still waiting for his porridge when Ramsay swept into the hall with his Bastards Boys, shouting for music. Abel rubbed the sleep from his eyes, took up his lute, and launched into The Dornishmans Wife, whilst one of his washerwomen beat time on her drum. The singer changed the words, though. Instead of tasting a Dornishmans wife, he sang of tasting a northmans daughter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tyrion XX Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I assume the outline picture from 1993 will be the topic of the next Heresy?Some juicy info in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaesterSam Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Isn't it awesome to see the Targ invasion spoken of as an invasion/conflict rather than redemption/resolution? I think we've seen the 1st conflict span 5 books, and hit of the brakes for the 2nd conflict. I think GRRM decided the dance could just as easily play out in Slaver's Bay instead, and then bring her home to Westeros for a bit of added flair and drama during the Battle for the Dawn, while hiding Jon in plain sight the whole time. As to the 3rd, I'd say that like the 2nd, all we've had is a little tease of what it could be like. Now that Winter is here, the Others will be a more interesting factor. Like Drogon, they've only just begun to move. As mentioned a few threads back, to date the most impressive magic we've seen has perhaps been from Mel's crotch, or in Mel's incineration of Orell/V6's eagle. I think the Others and the Wall will soon make her look like the silly little slave she is. Aemon already has, in my opinion. Light, but no Heat. Rather than a NQ:NK relationship, I think Mel is to Stannis as Wisdom Rossart was to Aerys. They can put on a flashy show, but true magic/power resides elsewhere.Yes indeed, and it's nice to see some heretical beliefs validated. It also is in line with the scene from the show, where the throne room is burned and destroyed first, before the snow can fall into it. I think much of the delay of both invasions is due to the lack of a 5 year gap. Dany's dragons needed time to grow up, or they would be useless. The whole point of the Dany arc (IMO) is to provide the dragons, so that needed to happen first, before the Dothraki invasion or the second Dance. Which I always assumed would be between Dany and Aegon, but I suppose if Vic steals a dragon or two, all bets are off as to who will fight who. I'm not so sure about Mel not being truly powerful. She sucks at interpreting visions, and sucks at critical thinking, but she can, for example, burn some people and ensure strong winds all the way up the coast. Plus the shadow babies. If she gets her hands on Shireen, I could see that Great Stone Beast coming into play, and who knows what shadow fire will do to those it touches? The whole setting-something-on-fire-without-touching-it is also a neat trick when you're fighting a very flammable enemy... I don't think the stone men are important in and of themselves, but I do think the legends surrounding them might exist to be parallel hints. The first Shrouded Lord supposedly arose after he was kissed by a grey woman with lips cold as ice, and he himself now haunts the Sorrows and spreads greyscale. I think the tale of the Shrouded Lord is purposely evocative of the tale of the Night's King giving his seed to the NQ, and being similarly transformed; subsequently, he's 'binding brothers to his will' (creating wights) and 'sacrificing to the Others' (creating white walkers).Maybe there never was a literal Night's Queen, and she's simply a metaphor for the temptation of magic (in this case, of the icy, far northern variety), especially with the way becoming an adept in Planetos seems to often go hand-in-hand with becoming increasingly inhuman, both physically and mentally, like the Undying, or Bloodraven, or perhaps even Mel if she's glamoured. For example, someone with no knowledge of greenseers would certainly take BR for a demon at first glance, and rightly so; there seems to be little left of the man he was in life, as more of him goes into the tree, and he spends his days dreaming. Perhaps the Others are not demons in the traditional sense, but humans that have been twisted and warped by the magic they've pursued. This is my favorite theory on the Others' origins. They were people who were corrupted by their use of magic. Whether on purpose or by accident I don't know. (By 'by accident' I mean something like a GS getting lost in his animal. It's something Jojen warns Bran against, but if nobody warned these original sorcerers they may have ended up being quite inhuman without having planned it this way). I am working on this crackpot where this was actually a reaction to what was happening in the East. Given that the coastlines are not charted all the way to the end of Essos, and that ships can't sail the far North, it is theoretically possible that the Lands of Always Winter and the Grey Waste are connected. And that therefore, the Wall and the Five Forts defend against the same region, and the same enemy.Unless we turn it around and say the sorcerers of Asshai/Yeen came first. They were scary and evil, and the pre-FM had to fight them somehow. So they too turned to dark magics, but for defensive purposes. They became the Others and created an ice army. Maybe the darkness was even necessary to fight the first shadow binders. Those black stones 'drink the light'- maybe that's where their power comes from. (Something similar is said about the first dragons too). Also without light, you can have no shadows. So by blocking out the light, Team Ice removed Team Shadow's power source and their ability to make shadow babies (and whatever other creatures they might make). You know, like in the Matrix. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tyrion XX Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Interesting read. . . . I do still like the idea of the ancient Others, am just not reconciled to how they fit in to my own crackpot. as to the last part you may want to ask Wolfmaid for the name of her new agent, since some of it was getting a bit :whip: , and that's quite marketable right now. throw in a vampire and you're good to go :lol: :cheers: nice one. And don't worry, am cozy and comfortable with healthy disagreement, a variety that's rare and too infrequently found in other parts of the forum. Well, what can you expect, we're starved for new material in here!!! We did try leaving you a few juicy tidbits :) The only connection to the Jon Snow's parents mystery I found were when he noted that he and Arya were just tortured over it all until the reveal of Jon's parents. In which case I'm guessing whatever they found out alleviated that particular problem. Maybe Jon is doomed to fall in love with fakeArya (unJon, that is. . . it is known!) And I like your assessment of the story framework. I always thought there was a super important reason for the Prologue to AGOT featuring the Others.I've been struggling with how the revelation of Jon's parents can alleviate Jon and Arya's feelings about doing the dirty? If Lyanna's is Jons's mother instead of Ned being Jon's father they go from brother and sister to being cousins. Does that really make them say "Oh awesome now we don't have weird feelings about banging eachother?"So is Jon not a Stark at all? That would kill my pet R is M+L=J theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balerion06 Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I don't think the stone men are important in and of themselves, but I do think the legends surrounding them might exist to be parallel hints. The first Shrouded Lord supposedly arose after he was kissed by a grey woman with lips cold as ice, and he himself now haunts the Sorrows and spreads greyscale. I think the tale of the Shrouded Lord is purposely evocative of the tale of the Night's King giving his seed to the NQ, and being similarly transformed; subsequently, he's 'binding brothers to his will' (creating wights) and 'sacrificing to the Others' (creating white walkers).Maybe there never was a literal Night's Queen, and she's simply a metaphor for the temptation of magic (in this case, of the icy, far northern variety), especially with the way becoming an adept in Planetos seems to often go hand-in-hand with becoming increasingly inhuman, both physically and mentally, like the Undying, or Bloodraven, or perhaps even Mel if she's glamoured. For example, someone with no knowledge of greenseers would certainly take BR for a demon at first glance, and rightly so; there seems to be little left of the man he was in life, as more of him goes into the tree, and he spends his days dreaming. Perhaps the Others are not demons in the traditional sense, but humans that have been twisted and warped by the magic they've pursued. I honestly like this interpretation best. I feel people ascribe way too much importance to the Night's King story when it's only mentioned once throughout the books so far. I'm not a huge fan of the NK being the big bad anyway; he's a pawn and a thrall in his own legend to begin with. Ultimately, I think the NK legend is simple world-building. It may be a parallel to Stannis' moral ambiguity in consorting with a fiery version of the pale lady, or it may hint at the idea of the Starks burying and contorting their dark history, but I don't think we're going to see the millenia old Night's King himself show up in the story proper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrettyPig Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I've been struggling with how the revelation of Jon's parents can alleviate Jon and Arya's feelings about doing the dirty? If Lyanna's is Jons's mother instead of Ned being Jon's father they go from brother and sister to being cousins. Does that really make them say "Oh awesome now we don't have weird feelings about banging eachother?"So is Jon not a Stark at all? That would kill my pet R is M+L=J theory.My guess is that he's still a Stark, but distant enough as cousins that it's acceptable. I need to read through the synopsis again, but I got the feeling from the first read that perhaps Jon and Arya (in addition to being older) weren't intended to be as close in family relationship/living arrangement as they are in the actual novels, so there isn't quite the gaggish incesty taint to the whole burgeoning love affair. Like Jon was already at the Wall for a while so they weren't all chummy and sibling-y like we see now. Although I do think that this planned pairing cements the notion that Jon is not Ned's son, I'm not sure why folks are automatically assuming that this confirms that Rhaegar as the father. If anything, I get the impression that Rhaegar as we know him is a byproduct of the later developed story and is serving as the ultimate red herring for the real true-villan culprit that GRRM had pegged in 1993. What really stood out for me in the letter was the part about Catelyn, Bran, and Arya fleeing north to escape the burning of Winterfell, but Jon (and Benjen) not being able to help due to their NW vows...."It will lead to bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran." The individual plot arcs have changed but the overall story arc seems to be relatively intact, so this gives strong credence to my belief that we are going to have a showdown between Jon and Bran in the North with the "bitter estrangement" coming from them supporting opposing sides rather than a family ties/NW vows conflict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew. Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 As to BR's humanity, I think he's still Brynden Rivers. But like an old man on life support, his waking/dreaming consciousness ebbs and flows. Age has calmed his fury, as it does for most 130 year old farts. I think his spiritually-elated, esoteric demeanor is easy to mistake for tree-ness LOL, but he's still a man. Sure, but he's only been in weirnet for 50 years, give or take; what happens to humans like the Undying, who've spent more of their lives glimpsing dreams and shadows than they've spent in the world of men? Do their motives and desires become increasingly inexplicable, increasingly distant from what we'd call "human?" That's what I'm getting at, with the idea that the 13th LC might still be around. The shadowbinders seem similarly foreign--hiding behind masks, and choosing to reside in lands that we know to be inhospitable, communing with shadows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 5, 2015 Author Share Posted February 5, 2015 Quite interesting stuff. Among other things, we see that in Dec. 1993, at least, there was no doubt in GRRM's mind that the Popsicles raise the wights, and furthermore, that they were only perceived as "half-forgotten demons out of legend." The reference to their raising "the neverborn" in addition to the wights is probably the basis of the original promotional copy for AGOT that used that phrase. This business is I think quite fundamental and vindicates what some of us have been arguing about the nature of the Others. First there's no doubting now that there is a hierarchy of demons and that the white walkers are not [exclusively] synonymous with the Others but rather are created, latterly from Craster's sons and deliberately chilled down in order to raise and/or control the wights. As to those Others who create the neverborn/walkers I'd take issue however with the concept of "ancient Others" and go for the children of the forest who are conspicuously absent from the synopsis. In other words I'm suggesting that having established in his mind that the both the neverborn/white walkers and the wights were to be created rather than bred, he is fleshing out these creators in the persona of the children. http://www.westeros....w_in_Barcelona/ Is there a closer relationship between the children of the forest and the Others than there might seem to be?Possibly, possibly. It's a topic that will be developing as the story continues, and so I can't say much more right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew. Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I'm still very much inclined to link the children and the blue-eyed lot and think them an unnecessary complication if they're not. I don't know, I feel like the Others could do with some complicating. Even so, I do agree that there's likely some link there, though I'm less inclined to declare the Singers of the Song of Earth the ones that actually raised the WW and wight army. Humans are diverse, so why not Children? Maybe, in the distant past, if you went kicking around in the fairy hills of the far north you'd find the Singers of the Song of Ice; I get the feeling that the nameless deities (spirits) of the Singers are a bit more complicated than just the weirwoods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 5, 2015 Author Share Posted February 5, 2015 Not sure how far off the big picture really is. The three main "threats" don't split neatly into three sequential phases of the epic, but they're all still there. For all we know, Dany may yet lead that Dothraki invasion... just think of Slaver's Bay as Westeros, and you're in good shape. ;) I'm rather reminded here of this SSM [lost the link I'm afraid]: ...at the L.A. Worldcon in 2006, George was on a panel and he was talking a bit dismissively about the cookie-cutter fantasies with a Dark Lord that's the ultimate evil, wants to destroy the world, etc. and he said, you know, nothing is ever that black and white in reality, history's greatest villains and monsters were, from their own perspective, heroic, etc. And he basically said he didn't want to write about a Dark Lord sort of situation.And so someone [at the LA Worldcon in 2006] followed up asking, Well, what about the Others? They seem pretty clearly evil. He paused and then smiled and said we'd have to keep reading to see where that goes. It implied to me that, yes, there's more to the Others than what we've seen so far. I'd rather venture to suggest that the POVs of "last of the Targaryen dragonlords" are indeed written to personify the business of "history's greatest villains and monsters were, from their own perspective, heroic, etc." - and with the Dothraki invasion seemingly scheduled to happen before Craster's boys come knocking, we may yet see the old joke played out that it isn't going to be a matter of Dany and her Amazing dragons saving Westeros from the Others but instead Craster's boys finding redemption by saving Westeros from the dragons - and the last of the dragonlords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eira Seren Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 In this way of thinking, there are already Original/Ancient Others about, and as a last resort during their retreat, the pale woman beds the Lord Commander/Last Hero. By day, he remains a Hero. A sworn brother. A scion of the north. The Others cannot stand against him . . . By night, he develops a crazy superiority complex, declares himself King, and his mistress Queen. He entrances his sworn brothers, bending them to his will with strange sorcery. He makes sacrifices to the Others, rather than offering them the pointy end of some dragonsteel. He's a control freak, and likes being kneeled to. My guess is that rather than being "unable to stand against" the "Last Hero," the Others were bowing to their puppet/King. In case you might have thought I was making too light of this before, I should say that it's an interesting and not unheard of device, and might help explain why 13 years had to go by before anyone knew (or was able to do) anything about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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