Heresy 149

[JNR]

This business is I think quite fundamental and vindicates what some of us have been arguing about the nature of the Others. First there's no doubting now that there is a hierarchy of demons and that the white walkers are not [exclusively] synonymous with the Others but rather are created, latterly from Craster's sons and deliberately chilled down in order to raise and/or control the wights.

I think we agree on the next topic, but on this one I am not so confident.

First, this document is from 1993 and the series has undergone radical transformations since those early days and his thinking at the time. But even if we take it seriously, what it says is that there were, in his mind at that time:

1. Others, aka Popsicles, who

2. Raise wights

3. Raise neverborn (which are not in any way identified or discussed)

There's no sign of 3 so far. There may yet be, but we have no idea at all. He may simply have cut this notion out completely, as he cut out so many other things from the summary.

There are Neverborn in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series and on being told this, he may have said Whoops, I can't seem to be ripping off the bestselling fantasy writer of this era so blatantly! to himself.

As to Craster, there's no mention whatever. Nor is there any info that suggests the Others are created in any sense, including via a process that begins with humans dumping babies in the woods.

The Others are simply identified as legendary demons, that are at the time of the story half-forgotten (as opposed to having always been hanging around where men live).

As to those Others who create the neverborn/walkers I'd take issue however with the concept of "ancient Others"

:agree:

I'm pretty sure that while we both believe in the idea that the Others existed at the time of the Long Night... we are both dubious of some unseen order of different or higher-order Others... as directly suggested by the show's kooky scene with the baby transformation and the B-movie, Whedonian-looking Other with the spiky head.

In general, I think it's doubtful to read very much into this summary. What stands out to me the most, reading it, is just how hazy GRRM's design really was at that time. It is to the current series as Superman circa 1941 ("able to leap tall buildings in a single bound!!") is to Superman today.

[Eira Seren]

I've been struggling with how the revelation of Jon's parents can alleviate Jon and Arya's feelings about doing the dirty? If Lyanna's is Jons's mother instead of Ned being Jon's father they go from brother and sister to being cousins. Does that really make them say "Oh awesome now we don't have weird feelings about banging eachother?"

So is Jon not a Stark at all? That would kill my pet R is M+L=J theory.

Pretty much. Tyson married his cousin. It's a bit close for comfort but known to happen much more frequently in the past than it is now.

Eta. Tywin

[Black Crow]

And then a more general thought. We've wondered before why the children entered into the Pact when they did and consented to the loss of so much of their lands, however the business of Winter might suggest a tactical reason. We've discussed recently how the Children may not necessarily be able to control the seasons upset so long long ago, but with their affinity with nature they probably know when Winter is coming.

In that case then they may have reasoned it was better to "surrender" while they were still in a position of strength, confident that when Winter came [and remember they live much longer than men and that from their point of view Winter is coming sooner than you think] they would be able to counter-attack.

[Black Crow]

I think we agree on the next topic, but on this one I am not so confident.

First, this document is from 1993 and the series has undergone radical transformations since those early days and his thinking at the time. But even if we take it seriously, what it says is that there were, in his mind at that time:

1. Others, aka Popsicles, who

2. Raise wights

3. Raise neverborn (which are not in any way identified or discussed)

There's no sign of 3 so far. There may yet be, but we have no idea at all. He may simply have cut this notion out completely, as he cut out so many other things from the summary.

I'd disagree because while the passage is perhaps not quite so clear as it might be it does seem the neverborn and the walkers [or the popsicles if you must] do appear to be one and the same and that what's lacking are not [3] but [1] and they, as I suggest may be the children who are otherwise unmentioned in the synopsis.

[Balerion06]

And then a more general thought. We've wondered before why the children entered into the Pact when they did and consented to the loss of so much of their lands, however the business of Winter might suggest a tactical reason. We've discussed recently how the Children may not necessarily be able to control the seasons upset so long long ago, but with their affinity with nature they probably know when Winter is coming.

In that case then they may have reasoned it was better to "surrender" while they were still in a position of strength, confident that when Winter came [and remember they live much longer than men and that from their point of view Winter is coming sooner than you think] they would be able to counter-attack.

Out of curiosity, how do you see the Starks and their connection to Winter fitting into all of this?

[Matthew.]

There are Neverborn in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series and on being told this, he may have said Whoops, I can't seem to be ripping off the bestselling fantasy writer of this era so blatantly! to himself.

Given that GRRM is a voracious reader, and fantasy fan, I doubt this is something he had to be told; some of us are interpreting the Neverborn as meaning the White Walkers, so his original plan to name them Neverborn may have been meant as an homage to Jordan's Myrddraal. There are a few minor overlaps there, such as the WWs and Myrddraal being all male (so far as we've seen).

[koitos kavala]

I'm thinking if the hammer of the waters could have been, not so much an unsuccessful attempt to split Westeros into two, but a somewhat successful effort to extinguish something? Further, could there have been a volcano in the Neck, and mountains did indeed 'blow in the wind like leaves' (and perhaps that is what the rocky Iron Islands are, the missing pieces of the continuous mountain range). In this way, the crannogmen in the Neck and Starks in Winterfell (where hot springs are located) guard these potential grounds to bring forth once more the dragons that are such an existential threat to the cotf (and indeed humans). Greywater Watch as concurrent to the Night's Watch, both being terms in the pact.

[Black Crow]

Out of curiosity, how do you see the Starks and their connection to Winter fitting into all of this?

As allies, or even owing allegiance to the greenseers - until perhaps the Nights King was overthrown by his brother and the link repudiated.

[wolfmaid7]

:agree: If Jon survives, I absolutely agree something will happen there.

To put it another way are Dragons evil,are wghts or even the wws evil ? To return to something that i've spoken of concerning magic being niether good nor evil but dependent on the caster that wields it. It as i believe applies to the aforementioned. If Dany's dragons help freed slaves in the hands of another less lighten heart those same Dragons can enslave.

In the hands of the corrupted heart the Wights could be made to do terrible things,but in the hands of Jon not so.It's all about perception we all know the truth leading up to Jon's stabbing. But i'm sure the message will be Jon let Wildlings into the kingdom and he was going to lead them to attack it.

I honestly like this interpretation best. I feel people ascribe way too much importance to the Night's King story when it's only mentioned once throughout the books so far. I'm not a huge fan of the NK being the big bad anyway; he's a pawn and a thrall in his own legend to begin with.

Ultimately, I think the NK legend is simple world-building. It may be a parallel to Stannis' moral ambiguity in consorting with a fiery version of the pale lady, or it may hint at the idea of the Starks burying and contorting their dark history, but I don't think we're going to see the millenia old Night's King himself show up in the story proper.

I disagree and here's why. If you look at the NK singularly as that yes,but he is another link in a long chain.Just like Bran is another link in a long chain where he's taking over from the previous link.His story is no different from The Shrouded Lord tale reaching as far back as maybe the Last Hero. Bran's tale is no different,than BR who is no different for BTB who is no different from Garthy Greenhand. When one Avatar's service is over another takes his place. So the NK is just a previous position from whom Jon must take over.

I don't know, I feel like the Others could do with some complicating. Even so, I do agree that there's likely some link there, though I'm less inclined to declare the Singers of the Song of Earth the ones that actually raised the WW and wight army. Humans are diverse, so why not Children? Maybe, in the distant past, if you went kicking around in the fairy hills of the far north you'd find the Singers of the Song of Ice; I get the feeling that the nameless deities (spirits) of the Singers are a bit more complicated than just the weirwoods.

I don't see a Singers link myself with respect to them having anything to do with the creation of the Others.I think the COTF knew of them and accept them as part of the cycle.Hence there will be no information forthcoming about how to defeat WWs and Wights. BR when Bran first arrived told him" You've come to me atlast Brando Stark though the hour is late." Yet there's been no mention of an enemy that he Bran must fight. It's all about training Bran so far to use his Greenseeing abilities.

[Frey family reunion]

I think we agree on the next topic, but on this one I am not so confident.

First, this document is from 1993 and the series has undergone radical transformations since those early days and his thinking at the time. But even if we take it seriously, what it says is that there were, in his mind at that time:

1. Others, aka Popsicles, who

2. Raise wights

3. Raise neverborn (which are not in any way identified or discussed)

There's no sign of 3 so far. There may yet be, but we have no idea at all. He may simply have cut this notion out completely, as he cut out so many other things from the summary.

There are Neverborn in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series and on being told this, he may have said Whoops, I can't seem to be ripping off the bestselling fantasy writer of this era so blatantly! to himself.

Cynically I wonder if the use of the name was intentional on Martin's part to suggest that his series would be similar to Jordan's Wheel of Time because as you said his series was red hot as of 1993. Correct me if I'm wrong, but at this time GRRM is still trying to sell his idea to a publisher, so he probably felt a need to frame the series in a way that would make the publisher believe that it would be marketable. I don't think Martin wrote this series as a traditional fantasy series and I don't think he ever intended it to be a traditional fantasy series but I think he needed people initially to believe it was so he could get it greenlit.

[Ser Creighton]

The Neverborn are not just part of Jordans world, they have been used in role playing games known as White Wolf.

They had names like he who holds the Thrall.

"The Neverborn, also called the Malfeans, are what remain when Primordials die. Unlike their infernal counterparts, the Yozi, the Neverborn epitomize necrotic energy and death.

In First Edition, the Neverborn were usually called Malfeans. In Second Edition, they are always called Neverborn, probably because "Malfean" was considered to be easily confused with Malfeas, who is in fact a Yozi."

"A Guide to the Knights of the Underworld"

"Gifted by the Deathlords with the corrupted Essences of Solar Exalts, the Abyssal Exalted are perhaps the greatest extant threat to Creation and its Exalted defenders. Frozen at the brink of death and offered immense power in exchange for servitude to the Neverborn, these so called knights of death ride forth with one shared mission, to drag the world and all that lives into the Void at their masters’ behest. Will the Abyssals succeed at their abhorrent task, or will the faint echo of their lost lot as heroes drive them to redeem themselves and, just maybe, rejoin the ranks of the Sun’s Chosen?

Abyssals includes:

• Details of the Deathlords, their goals and their terrible powers • Everything players and Storytellers need to generate Abyssal Exalted characters, including their Charms • Rules for necrotech, an occult science dedicated to building wonders from the corpses of the dead"

Jordans Neverborn would seem to have little relation to the Others. This however, is another matter. Kind of sounds a little Night Kingish. Of course it's not the same, but there seems to be some shared themes, don't know if it helps.

Though I guess with Jordan the Neverborn were like some genetic throw back to man, or was it a halfbreed, so I guess it could get into Crasters sons. We may never see them, or have them named but the idea may still exist within the text. Anyway that was for those who were curious about the Neverborn. Or perhaps if an Other mated with a human the halfbreed would not be born living so Neverborn rather some sort of Coldhands or Other thing. Martin may also use it as a historical reference at some point like he did with so many characters in the Worldbook.

As allies, or even owing allegiance to the greenseers - until perhaps the Nights King was overthrown by his brother and the link repudiated.

Came to a similar conclusion as well.

Anyway just scooting around the board seeing what everyone is saying about the old Treatment, thought I would drop in here and see what's what.

[Frey family reunion]

The thing I found interesting is that there was no mention of Littlefinger and Varys. Littlefinger especially seemed set up from the very start as a principal antagonist.

[wolfmaid7]

I think we agree on the next topic, but on this one I am not so confident.

First, this document is from 1993 and the series has undergone radical transformations since those early days and his thinking at the time. But even if we take it seriously, what it says is that there were, in his mind at that time:

1. Others, aka Popsicles, who

2. Raise wights

3. Raise neverborn (which are not in any way identified or discussed)

There's no sign of 3 so far. There may yet be, but we have no idea at all. He may simply have cut this notion out completely, as he cut out so many other things from the summary.

There are Neverborn in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series and on being told this, he may have said Whoops, I can't seem to be ripping off the bestselling fantasy writer of this era so blatantly! to himself.

As to Craster, there's no mention whatever. Nor is there any info that suggests the Others are created in any sense, including via a process that begins with humans dumping babies in the woods.

The Others are simply identified as legendary demons, that are at the time of the story half-forgotten (as opposed to having always been hanging around where men live).

:agree:

I'm pretty sure that while we both believe in the idea that the Others existed at the time of the Long Night... we are both dubious of some unseen order of different or higher-order Others... as directly suggested by the show's kooky scene with the baby transformation and the B-movie, Whedonian-looking Other with the spiky head.

In general, I think it's doubtful to read very much into this summary. What stands out to me the most, reading it, is just how hazy GRRM's design really was at that time. It is to the current series as Superman circa 1941 ("able to leap tall buildings in a single bound!!") is to Superman today.

:ninja: by Black Crow.Yeah the Neverborn and who we call the WWs/Popsicles are the same thing

And then a more general thought. We've wondered before why the children entered into the Pact when they did and consented to the loss of so much of their lands, however the business of Winter might suggest a tactical reason. We've discussed recently how the Children may not necessarily be able to control the seasons upset so long long ago, but with their affinity with nature they probably know when Winter is coming.

In that case then they may have reasoned it was better to "surrender" while they were still in a position of strength, confident that when Winter came [and remember they live much longer than men and that from their point of view Winter is coming sooner than you think] they would be able to counter-attack.

From what we've seen,there is no affinity with ice magic and to me it seems too complicated that you created something that has power over another element when you yourself have it. It seems uneccssaray and more applicable that they had nothing to do with the WWs creation and the link is that they knew because they've been in the land longer what to expect.

I'd disagree because while the passage is perhaps not quite so clear as it might be it does seem the neverborn and the walkers [or the popsicles if you must] do appear to be one and the same and that what's lacking are not [3] but [1] and they, as I suggest may be the children who are otherwise unmentioned in the synopsis.

The only problem i'm having with this besides the COTF being the creators of the Popsicles, is if the Popsicles are human in origin they "were born" and that does not align with the idea of "Neverborn". The wording of the Wight AND Popsicles being raised indicates while they may not be dead they are animated "snow and ice"

As allies, or even owing allegiance to the greenseers - until perhaps the Nights King was overthrown by his brother and the link repudiated.

[Eira Seren]

Snip...

I'd rather venture to suggest that the POVs of "last of the Targaryen dragonlords" are indeed written to personify the business of "history's greatest villains and monsters were, from their own perspective, heroic, etc." - and with the Dothraki invasion seemingly scheduled to happen before Craster's boys come knocking, we may yet see the old joke played out that it isn't going to be a matter of Dany and her Amazing dragons saving Westeros from the Others but instead Craster's boys finding redemption by saving Westeros from the dragons - and the last of the dragonlords.

Wouldn't it be interesting if at the end what we're left with is two tellings, these two opposite POVs, and Grrm leaves at least part of it up to the reader to decide about what they think happened with the outcome... That could be part of what's bittersweet, though he'll still conclude things

[Black Crow]

:ninja: by Black Crow.Yeah the Neverborn and who we call the WWs/Popsicles are the same thing

From what we've seen,there is no affinity with ice magic and to me it seems too complicated that you created something that has power over another element when you yourself have it. It seems uneccssaray and more applicable that they had nothing to do with the WWs creation and the link is that they knew because they've been in the land longer what to expect.

The only problem i'm having with this besides the COTF being the creators of the Popsicles, is if the Popsicles are human in origin they "were born" and that does not align with the idea of "Neverborn". The wording of the Wight AND Popsicles being raised indicates while they may not be dead they are animated "snow and ice"

It all depends on how you define born. I'm inclined to read it in this case as a repudiation of there being a race of white walkers with mummy walkers and daddy walkers giving each other special huggles to make baby walkers who grow up to terrorize the humans next door; and that instead they are created [using human children] rather than bred - hence GRRM's comment about not knowing whether they have a culture.

[Black Crow]

I honestly like this interpretation best. I feel people ascribe way too much importance to the Night's King story when it's only mentioned once throughout the books so far. I'm not a huge fan of the NK being the big bad anyway; he's a pawn and a thrall in his own legend to begin with.

Ultimately, I think the NK legend is simple world-building. It may be a parallel to Stannis' moral ambiguity in consorting with a fiery version of the pale lady, or it may hint at the idea of the Starks burying and contorting their dark history, but I don't think we're going to see the millenia old Night's King himself show up in the story proper.

I'm actually rather inclined to agree, although his apparent introduction in the show complicates things a little. Personally I'm rather inclined to see his connection to the Others and his eventual overthrow by his own brother as a metaphor for the Stark repudiation of their former allegiance to the Old Powers and the point at which they stopped being Kings of Winter and instead became Kings in the North.

[Voice]

You've never been out in an ice storm then?

I have actually, but I don't put wind in my tea on a hot day.

[Voice]

"Seeing spies where there is none" You lost me,or you definitely misinterpreted what i said .I'm not proposing a friendship or that the Popsicles are friends.As i said they aint nothing but pawns.We have several typs of accords in this story already.

I think you misunderstood me actually. While I referenced ww's, the suspected spy I was speaking of was BR. I do not think that he, nor any Singer or greenseer, are in league with the Others. And I do not see Bran becoming any sort of winter king.

ETA, real life calls but I'll catch up more later :)

[wolfmaid7]

I think you misunderstood me actually. While I referenced ww's, the suspected spy I was speaking of was BR. I do not think that he, nor any Singer or greenseer, are in league with the Others. And I do not see Bran becoming any sort of winter king.

ETA, real life calls but I'll catch up more later :)

Why would Bran be a Winter King when he's Summer? And why would BR be a spy he doesnt need to be spying for anyone.Lastly, we'll agree to disgree on if the Others are under the direction of someone like Bran and BR.

[Balerion06]

I'm actually rather inclined to agree, although his apparent introduction in the show complicates things a little. Personally I'm rather inclined to see his connection to the Others and his eventual overthrow by his own brother as a metaphor for the Stark repudiation of their former allegiance to the Old Powers and the point at which they stopped being Kings of Winter and instead became Kings in the North.

The show is an interesting beast. If that is indeed supposed to be THE Night's King (and I have serious doubts it is), then it might just be a simplification of a more complex plot point from the books, considering that the NK legend hasn't even been mentioned once throughout the actual TV show.

Just spitballing here, but the Night's King of the TVverse could well just have been conceived to give a "face to the enemy" for TV audiences, considering the rest of the White Walkers are an indistinguishable horde of ice demons. This TV NK could simply be intended as a composite for various WW characters and their actions throughout the next two books.