Harrold Hardyng or Harrold Arryn?

[Bryanfury]

Again, you're trying to argue that because place names remain the same, it's ok for House names to change. Casterly Rock still being called Casterly Rock has zero bearing on the Hardying situation. It doesn't matter that Highgarden is still called Highgarden; that's irrelevant to Harry Hardying being renamed Harold Arryn. It's a completely arbitrary tangent that doesn't have a place in the discussion at all. It simply does not matter. What does matter is that several Houses are thousands of years old and the only way they can possibly have lived so long is through female descent and heirs taking on the House name. There's no reason that this shouldn't happen with Harry.

When Robert dies, Harry the Heir becomes Lord Harrold, Defender of the Vale and Lord of the Eyrie. Jon Arryn’s bannermen will never love me, nor our silly, shaking Robert, but they will love their Young Falcon...

A Hardying isn't going to be referred to as the Young Falcon. But an Arryn will be.

And for the record, it is straight up said that the Maesters don't know how Lann took Casterly Rock, and rather that there are only guesses as to what happened. Unsurprisingly, you are taking one particular guess as fact over any other because doing so supports your argument.

[Mithras]

I think that this happens quite often when a title passes through a female line.

In the 250 years of Stark family tree, we do not see it happening, nor do we see something even close to that happening.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

In the 250 years of Stark family tree, we do not see it happening, nor do we see something even close to that happening.

Right 250 years on just one family is not the same as thousands of years on about a hundred families. Some would have had female heirs, yet the name has remained the same.

Anya Waynwoods children are named after her and not after her husband.

[Mithras]

Anya Waynwoods children are named after her and not after her husband.

Do you know who was her husband? Maybe a cousin Waynwood. Perhaps that is the case for Maege's children.

[Gibzit]

In the 250 years of Stark family tree, we do not see it happening, nor do we see something even close to that happening.

Brandon the Daughterless...

[TheHouseHB]

If theories are correct Robin being Littlefinger's and Lysa's than Harold Hardyng may have more of a claim than Sweet Robin does.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

In the 250 years of Stark family tree, we do not see it happening, nor do we see something even close to that happening.

statistically, Over millennia it is practically certain that the stark claim (as well as the name of many other houses) will have gone through a female. 250 years, sure, possible to have an unbroken line. 2000+? No.

And like others pointed out, the examples you gave were essentially equivalent to dynastic changes, overthrowing and replacing former families with new ones.

Finally, youre grasping at straws with the Mormonts and waynwoods must have Married cousins thing, come on.

[Mithras]

Brandon the Daughterless...

That is a bard tale full of inconsistencies with the historical facts.

[Mithras]

statistically, Over millennia it is practically certain that the stark claim (as well as the name of many other houses) will have gone through a female. 250 years, sure, possible to have an unbroken line. 2000+? No.

And like others pointed out, the examples you gave were essentially equivalent to dynastic changes, overthrowing and replacing former families with new ones.

Finally, youre grasping at straws with the Mormonts and waynwoods must have Married cousins thing, come on.

George does not care about statistics.

If a person can believe that a bloodline can survive in a place like Westeros for 8000 years, then, it is not a big stretch that the cases like Joffrey Lydden were as rare as nipples on a breastplate.

[Lord Varys]

Harrold Hardyng will face troubles that the ancient kings did not have. The Arryns are no longer monarchs of their, which means that the Iron Throne would have to approve a name change - back with Joffrey Lydden the West was independent and the council there could decide what they wanted to.

The cases of Arwyn Oakheart and Anya Waynwood should be differently, as they would have been the heirs and rulers of their respected seats, and most likely long got royal permission to pass down their name to their sons, whereas Harrold Hardyng is merely heir presumptive as long as Robert has no own children.

I guess that Littlefinger and Sansa will style Harry 'Lord Harrold Arryn' - just as Lysa called Robert 'True Warden of the East' - following Robert's death and Sansa's marriage to Harry - if any of this happens - but whether this will stick should greatly depend on whether Harry prevails as Lord of the Eyrie.

Nothing suggests that any of the great houses was in the situation House Arryn finds itself in during the main series. There may have been a few ruling ladies, but it seems that neither Jeyne Arryn nor Rhea Royce had heirs of their own body (in Rhea's case it is confirmed). Those who have - like Arwyn Oakheart and Anya Waynwood - would have gotten royal permission to pass on their name to their children.

[Barrick Eddon]

I don't get what's the big deal about Arwyn Oakheart and Anya Waynwood , Arwyn could have been a ( Florent , Tarly , Cuy ) who married a Lord Oakhert , Anya could have been a ( Redfort , Belmore , Coldwater ) who married a Lord Waynwood . Look at Barbrey Dustin , she was a Ryswell who wed a Dustin she has no kids with him an yet she rules Barowtown and still holds the name Dustin .

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I don't get what's the big deal about Arwyn Oakheart and Anya Waynwood , Arwyn could have been a ( Florent , Tarly , Cuy ) who married a Lord Oakhert , Anya could have been a ( Redfort , Belmore , Coldwater ) who married a Lord Waynwood . Look at Barbrey Dustin , she was a Ryswell who wed a Dustin she has no kids with him an yet she rules Barowtown and still holds the name Dustin .

Nope.

Each of them got (adult) sons (and daughters as well). If they had only married into the house, their children would be the ruling Lords/Ladies.

[Lord Varys]

Exactly. You really should check the family trees first. Especially the Oakheart thing is pretty obvious. If Arys' father was dead and the previous Lord of Old Oak, Lady Arwyn not be the Lady Oakheart - it would be Arys himself, or rather an older brother, as the only son and heir of Old Oak would most likely not (be allowed to) join the Kingsguard.

The fact that Arys Oakheart is named Oakheart, and the fact that Lady Waynwood's sons are Waynwoods is confirmation that they were allowed to carry their the name of their mothers.

Lady Dustin is a very special case, by the way. As a childless widow she should be essentially nothing after her husband's death, yet she is the unquestioned ruler of Barrowton and the surrounding lands. That should be an interesting story, possibly involving the unfortunate deaths of certain Dustin cousins... Or perhaps Ned actually gave Barrowton to her to make amends for her husband's death, under the condition that she never remarry, so that Barrowton would pass back into Dustin hands upon her death (not sure about that, though).

[Robb-TheYoungWolf]

I doubt he legally has to change his name but I don't see why he would go through the headache of not doing it. It would piss off so many bannermen for no reason. Pretty stupid reason to antagonize the lords you rule over something as simple as that if you ask me.

As others have pointed out he's inheriting through his Arryn side so it would makes sense for him to change his name. I think most people in Westeros would love to take the name of a great house with all the prestige that comes with it.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

George does not care about statistics.

If a person can believe that a bloodline can survive in a place like Westeros for 8000 years, then, it is not a big stretch that the cases like Joffrey Lydden were as rare as nipples on a breastplate.

Not really how it works.

The chances that a decendent of any single person will be present 8000 years later in an expanding population are quite high.

On the other hand, The chances that this will occur through a direct male lineage are remote - practically nil.

Given you have no textual evidence to support your idea that names cannot ever go through females, and several in text examples that they can, going with the much more likely example is only logical.

[Daena the Defiant]

Exactly. You really should check the family trees first. Especially the Oakheart thing is pretty obvious. If Arys' father was dead and the previous Lord of Old Oak, Lady Arwyn not be the Lady Oakheart - it would be Arys himself, or rather an older brother, as the only son and heir of Old Oak would most likely not (be allowed to) join the Kingsguard.

The fact that Arys Oakheart is named Oakheart, and the fact that Lady Waynwood's sons are Waynwoods is confirmation that they were allowed to carry their the name of their mothers.

an even better example is House Stokeworth. We know that Lady Tanda was the Stokeworth (or else upon her husband's death, Falyse would have been Lady Stokeworth - that only happened when Lady Tanda dies). Lady Falyse Stokeworth becomes the Lady Stokeworth upon the death of her mother, despite being married to Ser Balman Byrch, Then upon her, uh, death, the Stokeworth mantle passes to Lollys, who is also married and not to a Stokeworth cousin.

The new worldbook specifically refers to a time when Casterly Rock was inherited by a Lannister daughter and her husband joined into House Lannister so that children the of the union would not be Liddens,

There is also a discussion re: passing Hornwood to the late lord's nephew via his sister married into House Manderly(?), and then turning him back into a Hornwood.

This is pretty much a non-issue.

[Elkrider]

There is also a discussion re: passing Hornwood to the late lord's nephew via his sister married into House Manderly(?), and then turning him back into a Hornwood.

This is pretty much a non-issue.

It's Tallhart. The late Lord Hornwood's sister married into the Tallharts, and in Clash when discussing what to do with the Hornwood inheritance her husband suggests that his younger son could be take the Hornwood name and inherit. It's explicitly stated that he would change his name.

[Daena the Defiant]

It's Tallhart. The late Lord Hornwood's sister married into the Tallharts, and in Clash when discussing what to do with the Hornwood inheritance her husband suggests that his younger son could be take the Hornwood name and inherit. It's explicitly stated that he would change his name.

Thank you :)

[Mrs.Grumpy]

@Mithras

dont know why you are so against the idea but you are wrong

sorry :/

[Lord Varys]

My guess is that things changed somewhat in favor of female inheritance in north of Dorne after the Conquest. Back when they were still independent kingdoms, the people in charge at those courts would have tried to decide who should inherit if the succession was unclear. We see how the Starks still marry uncles to nieces to solidify a male claim from the lesser branch. Something similar may also have happened in the South before the Conquest, with a lesser Arryn, Lannister, Durrandon etc. marrying the (only) daughter of the previous king.

The only Andal kingdom which ever had a Queen Regnant was, apparently, the Reach, and considering that the Reach is sort of 'the model Andal kingdom', as the center of chivalry and the Faith, I could see this custom spreading from the Reach into the other Andal kingdoms, especially after the Conquest, with the strong support of Rhaenys and Alysanne Targaryen (the latter may have enforced the 'a daughter comes before an uncle' rule in the North).

I can see smaller holdings and lordship being ruled by women before the Conquest, but a crown is a different matter - too many men will be subject to a women when she ascends it, and we see how that council in the West passed over the Lannister daughter in favor of her husband, and later we see how Rhaenys and her bloodline is passed over in favor of Viserys by Jaehaerys and the Great Council.

But then, we have Quen Marla Sunderland as a counter example. I'd also not be surprised if Alyssa Arryn was an Arryn by birth and the Queen Regnant of the Vale. If an only/elder daughter is made heir by a strong king in a smaller kingdom, she could have succeeded relatively easily.