Weeping Sore Posted February 18, 2015 Author Share Posted February 18, 2015 When grappling with the difference between femininity and femaleness I'm not sure I'm just grappling with language or something more tangible...my personal conclusion is that if I'm not considering HRT or SRS it's all the same to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maltaran Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/18/stonewall-trans-issues-neglected-progressives Stonewall is going to start campaigning for trans equality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Of House Hill Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Sure they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I am curious what thoughts are on Bruce Jenner and the way the press is handling it. I have very mixed feelings. On the one hand, I think there is an air of support surrounding Bruce and that's really great. On the other hand, Bruce hasn't confirmed anything. It lends this air of bullying when the media is basically forcing someone out before they might be ready or trying to force a label where it might not apply. Conversely, what are thoughts on how Jenner is handling it? I typically fall on the side that the individual gets to choose how and when they are labeled. It feels a bit complicated when it's a reality tv celebrity. I admit that I worry that there is the possibility that a population is being exploited simply for ratings and I wish Bruce would respond one way or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Of House Hill Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I think that until Jenner says something, one way or the other, it is all speculation. Celebrity or not, he deserves some privacy. The "press" has been contemptible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weeping Sore Posted March 3, 2015 Author Share Posted March 3, 2015 Alright, I want some people's thoughts on this. So women (lesbians, mainly) have carved out a space for more masculine presentation while still female. I'm thinking a lot of women with a strong masculine aspect will identify as "butch" rather than as trans men. Feminism in general has taken on gender stereotypes, standards of appearance, and whatnot. Part of fewer non-conforming women not identifying as trans* may be the perception of a lack of a satisfactory endpoint (i.e., the limitations of bottom surgery). Men with a strong feminine aspect read to the general public as gay, but the mainstreaming of gay culture has made it (gay culture) more masculine. My understanding of the Stonewall era is that people involved who we would now call trans* were at the time considered gay transvestites. The bifurcation of identity had a lot to do with gays thinking that masculinity and straight-acting would win them more acceptance, relegating those who wouldn't or couldn't do this to (even more) of an outsider status. Also, trans* women who were gynophilic never really fit the mould, so I'm not sure how many of them ever made common cause with gay males. Where the evolution of HRT and SRS falls in history is probably pretty relevant- I feel like the existence of a viable endpoint helps cement the consciousness of "I am really a woman" even if that endpoint is never reached. My question is - does the lack of space for femininity within maleness, most egregiously among straight men but also to an extent among gay men, lead more people to identify as trans*? And if I think I could just as easily call myself a non-gender-conforming man, a "femme" man, or even a "sissy" as I could call myself genderqueer, genderfluid, or bigender, should I still fall under the trans* umbrella as a kind of gender misfit, or would it be better not to stretch the definition too much? That is, if a tomboy or butch lesbian feels comfortable considering herself a woman, why should I have to claim femaleness to legitimize my feminine aspect? Please, I would welcome some criticism here, particularly if my historical view seems off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Of House Hill Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 WS, A couple of months ago, I had a conversation with a long-time friend who is a trans man. Many years before his transition, he had told me he felt like a bisexual man. His opinion is that some butch lesbians, identify as women and some as men. The latter are reluctant to transition for several reasons. One, the overall difficulty of transitioning and two, the fact that medical science hasn't yet come up with great results for FtM SRS, and three, they feel more secure in the lesbian community. FWIW, prior to transition, my friend, for lack of a better description, was femme on the streets and butch in the sheets. The amusing thing is that we were discussing a stupid Facebook quiz, of the type I'm addicted to, that was designed to show what kind of lesbian one was. I was annoyed it claimed I was a butch lesbian, but he thought that was accurate. More seriously, in doing some research into my own history, for the book I'm writing, I learned that unbeknownst to me, I was a frequent topic of conversation in the crowd I hung out with. It seems my friends had no problem with my being trans, but couldn't come to grips with a trans lesbian, as if my orientation invalidated my being trans, because being attracted to women was seen as a masculine trait. As far as your last question,you shouldn't have to claim anything because others expect it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galactus Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 It seems my friends had no problem with my being trans, but couldn't come to grips with a trans lesbian, as if my orientation invalidated my being trans, because being attracted to women was seen as a masculine trait. That is (and was, to an even greater extent) IIRC fairly common a reaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Of House Hill Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 That is (and was, to an even greater extent) IIRC fairly common a reaction. To show how pervasive that thinking was, I kept my endocrinologist on as my GP, after SRS. When I understood better, what my orientation was, I told him I was a lesbian. His reply was, "Robin, you went through all that to be with women?" Considering he was one of the better known in his field, treating transgender patients, I was surprised. I explained who I was and who I was attracted to, were two distinct things. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised by his question, because it was generally known that the medical gate keepers expected trans women would be attracted to men. Maybe, I educated him, maybe, not. I moved away less than a year later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Alright, I want some people's thoughts on this. So women (lesbians, mainly) have carved out a space for more masculine presentation while still female. I'm thinking a lot of women with a strong masculine aspect will identify as "butch" rather than as trans men. Feminism in general has taken on gender stereotypes, standards of appearance, and whatnot. Part of fewer non-conforming women not identifying as trans* may be the perception of a lack of a satisfactory endpoint (i.e., the limitations of bottom surgery). Men with a strong feminine aspect read to the general public as gay, but the mainstreaming of gay culture has made it (gay culture) more masculine. My understanding of the Stonewall era is that people involved who we would now call trans* were at the time considered gay transvestites. The bifurcation of identity had a lot to do with gays thinking that masculinity and straight-acting would win them more acceptance, relegating those who wouldn't or couldn't do this to (even more) of an outsider status. Also, trans* women who were gynophilic never really fit the mould, so I'm not sure how many of them ever made common cause with gay males. Where the evolution of HRT and SRS falls in history is probably pretty relevant- I feel like the existence of a viable endpoint helps cement the consciousness of "I am really a woman" even if that endpoint is never reached. My question is - does the lack of space for femininity within maleness, most egregiously among straight men but also to an extent among gay men, lead more people to identify as trans*? And if I think I could just as easily call myself a non-gender-conforming man, a "femme" man, or even a "sissy" as I could call myself genderqueer, genderfluid, or bigender, should I still fall under the trans* umbrella as a kind of gender misfit, or would it be better not to stretch the definition too much? That is, if a tomboy or butch lesbian feels comfortable considering herself a woman, why should I have to claim femaleness to legitimize my feminine aspect? Please, I would welcome some criticism here, particularly if my historical view seems off. I do know that in the last few years since trans started becoming a lot more acceptable there have been a lot more butch lesbians choosing to transition and coming out as trans men. It's led to a number of articles I've seen bemoaning the death of butches, which I found complete twaddle that basically expected others to continue to deny their identity to artificially sustain a community. There will still continue to be butch lesbians, maybe not as many as before, but it will still be a thing. Tomboy is so acceptable it's not even noteworthy. So yeah I certainly think there should be a state for straight men equivalent to tomboy that doesn't call your sexuality into question. And it should not go near the word effeminate which I find is a word used purely to deride feminine expression in men, it's not effeminate it's simply feminine. In boy drag no matter how hard I tried I was always feminine, I couldn't be otherwise because it's who I am. And yes, outside my family I was near universally assumed to be gay even by those I was out to as bisexual - it was very fucking frustrating, given my attraction to women is one of the most important (to me) parts of my identity. I do not actually think it would lead a statistically significant amount of men to misidentify as trans however, or at least certainly not transsexual - you may find them disproportionately represented amongst the non transitioning portion of the umbrella though, I can't really speak to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galactus Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 To show how pervasive that thinking was, I kept my endocrinologist on as my GP, after SRS. When I understood better, what my orientation was, I told him I was a lesbian. His reply was, "Robin, you went through all that to be with women?" Considering he was one of the better known in his field, treating transgender patients, I was surprised. I explained who I was and who I was attracted to, were two distinct things. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised by his question, because it was generally known that the medical gate keepers expected trans women would be attracted to men. Maybe, I educated him, maybe, not. I moved away less than a year later. Interestingly enough I don't think any of the transwomen I've talked to has identified as straight. (most identify as lesbians, some few as bisexual or other) Not a big sample size, mind (you guys in this thread are like... A third of them) but still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Any idea on whether they were early or late transitioners Galactus? Early meaning teens, late meaning anything after that. What about when they knew, as kids or later? Those that know as kids and push the issue to the point of getting to transition as teenagers are almost always straight. I think it's that the attraction to what we perceive as the opposite sex delays our recognition of reality for those of us who realise and transition later and are Lesbian or Bisexual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galactus Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I don't really know, honestly. But your hypothesis sounds reasonable. (I wasn't trying to make any kind of statement or anything, just how odd sampling can get) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 It's not actually mine, I think it was Brook's idea - or someone elses and I'm crediting her lol, but I'm pretty sure her. I had only noted the correlation before, but she suggested that it was actually a causative relationship, being perceived as straight places us much more at odds of societal views by asserting our womanhood, where someone transitioning to be a straight woman is accepted more readily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Of House Hill Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I can think of a couple of late transitioning trans women who used to be on my FB friends list, who are straight to the point that they really dislike trans women who are lesbians. But, I think you're right, for the most part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 If they are the two I would guess they are there is more going on there, I also think the dynamic is one that's only kicking in more recently, probably close to my age if even as old as me. The two I think you are talking about were heavily involved in the gay and drag scenes before and have therefore always associated with that male attraction. It seems to have caused hostility to the queer womens scene in them for some reason I don't know, but the way they have in some ways tried to hang on to that connection strikes me as very similar to trans guys that try to maintain their connection to the lesbian scene and maintain it's appropriate for them to be at women only events but not trans women *cough michfest*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Of House Hill Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Those are the two. One decided to make a statement of twitter that was lesbophobic, racist and elitist and the other, for no reason whatever, decided to re-open the whole RuPaul/slur thing, again. I decided that those problems will never be corrected and dumped them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Yeah, their initial behaviour led me to the conclusion that they were at best just not very nice people. You must have missed the lesbophobic screed from one and that was why I was surprised you gave them a chance. I think ultimately they are just taking stances that defend the income sources they have found exploiting their own community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Of House Hill Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Actually, the latter one, and I think you know who I mean, is quite pleasant and helpful, personally. I had several conversations with her and she was quite nice. It's a shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I'm actually not sure which one you mean by the latter. The one I would think of as the former has done some coaching work for actors and apart from the Ru Paul/slur stuff I haven't seen too much horrible from her other than her business partnership with and support of the one I'd think of as the latter. The latter one is the one I have seen be awfully lesbophobic several times and that first letter from her was all I needed to think she's just not very nice. Personally I think their business is itself inherent exploitative of our community - even if you view stealth as something desirable I see profiting off teaching people how to do it better as exploiting a community that I would be providing services to for free. The one I think of as the former is going to be out here for an event that were I feeling better I'd be boycotting as a result of their inviting her, last year they had Chaz Bono and an Australian trans woman Cate McGregor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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