LGBTQI - The NYT says genderqueers are Real!

[emberling]

My question is - does the lack of space for femininity within maleness, most egregiously among straight men but also to an extent among gay men, lead more people to identify as trans*?

This is definitely a factor to me. Like...male femininity isn't a thing I'm interested in at all. But the lack of a space for feminine interests as a man was something that pushed me to where I am. And, like, my vision of myself is a total tomboy, right? The thing is, I'm not sure I can envision a male equivalent. Tomboy takes like everything that was good and for boys only and makes it also for girls, making a safe identity for a weakly-gendered person like myself who felt constrained by the rigid boundaries of manhood. If some male equivalent existed without the homophobic stigma attached, would it have been just as attractive? Would I have been content with it and not needed to explore transition? I really can't say. Based on my reaction to HRT I can be fairly confident that whatever definable physical difference there may be between men and pre-everything trans women, I've got it. I am way the fuck happier now. But again, how much of that is placebo, or based on (incompletely) lifting my repression of my femininity? Who knows.

I don't know, if I let myself all the way free I'd probably be way the fuck more feminine and then I'd probably get over the discomfort with 'woman' (which tbh may be a lot because I'm not comfortable seeing myself as an adult - I never, ever, ever called myself 'man' either). But I've got no self-confidence, awful body image, nobody I can trust to Cinderella me up or even tell me if I'm doing things right. Oh, and no money to throw around on experiments. It's a damn long road when you can't take but baby steps.

[karaddin]

I really fucking wish you lived here in Sydney em, all I can say is *hugs*

And offers of really inadequate skype sessions if you want them. I'm far from very good at make up, so I'm not very useful from a practical perspective but I can still make some things work.

[Weeping Sore]

Tomboy is so acceptable it's not even noteworthy. So yeah I certainly think there should be a state for straight men equivalent to tomboy that doesn't call your sexuality into question. And it should not go near the word effeminate which I find is a word used purely to deride feminine expression in men, it's not effeminate it's simply feminine. .

Well put. Though whatever label is used for a feminine male, the real challenge is getting people to reject the idea that femininity = weak and worthy of ridicule and derision.

I don't know, if I let myself all the way free I'd probably be way the fuck more feminine and then I'd probably get over the discomfort with 'woman' (which tbh may be a lot because I'm not comfortable seeing myself as an adult - I never, ever, ever called myself 'man' either). But I've got no self-confidence, awful body image, nobody I can trust to Cinderella me up or even tell me if I'm doing things right. Oh, and no money to throw around on experiments. It's a damn long road when you can't take but baby steps.

Actually your post referring to me as a trans woman (though I had just asked people to use the feminine pronoun, so that's on me) just seemed to not make sense to me. (Maybe it's just that woman is a weird word "I am Woman, Hear me roar!") I guess though I'd like to have an androgynous aspect publicly and go full femme from time to time in private, that "woman" triggered an unequivical "no" for me.

There aught to be more Fairy Godmothers out there when you need them...but I'll just say some fun dresses can be found at thrift stores...

[Maltaran]

I saw this video on the BBC today about trans kids and their parents - in case it turns out to be region-locked, here's the description

On various social media networks, parents of transgender children are using social media to "come out" about their children's gender identity. The videos are popular, but serious concerns are also being raised about the impact on children when parents do this.

What do people think? Obviously, parents getting mutual support is a good thing, but as some of the interviewees point out, it runs the risk of pigeonholing their kids as "the transgender child".

[Maltaran]

Also, I've been playing Dragon Age Inquisition and have just discovered that one of the NPCs is a transman.

[Dr. Pepper]

I saw this video on the BBC today about trans kids and their parents - in case it turns out to be region-locked, here's the description

What do people think? Obviously, parents getting mutual support is a good thing, but as some of the interviewees point out, it runs the risk of pigeonholing their kids as "the transgender child".

To me, it's an issue of consent. I tend to think parents should not publicly share any information about their children. If they do, I think the child should at least be of an age to offer consent. This would be especially true for sensitive topics, including those under the LGBTQIA umbrella. Of course, I think parents should seek out the support they deem necessary, but should try to be sensitive to the privacy of the child.

[Robin Of House Hill]

To me, it's an issue of consent. I tend to think parents should not publicly share any information about their children. If they do, I think the child should at least be of an age to offer consent. This would be especially true for sensitive topics, including those under the LGBTQIA umbrella. Of course, I think parents should seek out the support they deem necessary, but should try to be sensitive to the privacy of the child.

I have a multitude of conflicting thoughts about that. On one hand, I feel that there is a great deal of benefit in supporting the needs of transgender children, as early as necessary. I also recognize that it is often impossible to be anything but open, But, I object to creating a public record which may be difficult for the child to avoid, at some future time, if privacy is desired.

I recognize that it is not a popular view, but I believe a trans person has an absolute right to keep any part, or all of their history, from public view. Anything that strips that right away, is wrong, in my opinion.

[Fez]

Couldn't the parents do this anonymously with just a bit of effort? Use a blur or shadow or something in the videos to keep their features unrecognizable, not give out any names, and not give out information that could identify themselves or their kids?

[Dr. Pepper]

Couldn't the parents do this anonymously with just a bit of effort? Use a blur or shadow or something in the videos to keep their features unrecognizable, not give out any names, and not give out information that could identify themselves or their kids?

The blurring out thing would concern me because it gives off this air of secretive shame. Though that may just be me?

I think a better anonymous approach would be to do a written blog, perhaps with photos that hide the features of the child. There is room and need for both a public and anonymous approach. I agree with Robin that children should have the right to privacy. But I also do think that some children are able to understand the issues associated with making some of their private lives public and can consent to do so.

[Summah]

I have a fb friend who writes on fb (these are friends only but I don't know if all her friends can see or only some of us) occasionally about her trans son who is about 13 right now, I wondered at this, if it was too public, because all of us know which of her two children it is who is trans, and his new male name, old female name and of course his last name as well. And it's not clear to me whether or not it's ok with her son that she is posting that sort of thing.

[Robin Of House Hill]

I sometimes wonder how much better life would have been if I had been born at a time at a time where the level of acceptance of transgender people was at a level that I could have started expressing what I felt at 5 years of age, but had to conceal until I was 34. The problem is I don't think we are anywhere near that level of acceptance, which make parents revealing their kids are transgender, problematic in a different way. Bullying at school, social ostracism and the like, are equally burdensome on kids, as kids feeling the need to conceal who they are, even from their own family.

I wish the world were a lot better than it is.

[karaddin]

I didn't need to be out at school, I didn't even need to know I was in any way different for be to be bullied. Other kids could tell and I got bullied anyway and it scarred me for a very much time. One thing I'd like to see is more acknowledgement of just how damaging bullying can be to children, instead of this watered down yes it's serious but acting like if the kids gets past the bullying it's all OK. It took me 15 years to undo enough of the damage to start learning who I really was. There is another wonderful person on this forum who reminds me a hell of a lot of how I used to be, and much of what makes her that way is the result of bullying.

Speaking of bullying, Commodore coming into this thread and spreading that transphobic bile. Given we have seen the importance of having this as a safe space with multiple people managing to use this thread to help navigate their own identities I'm kind of surprised it was left here. Yes people know it's ridiculous and it's Commodore, but when your are at a certain particularly sensitive place that can be enough to cause significant damage. The hypocrisy of the pseudo libertarian stance is also wonderful, businesses can do whatever they want on their property unless it's progressive. Freedom of speech is all important and I'm sure I'm calling to censor his speech, but restricting trans women's movements and the businesses freedom of association is fine!

[Dr. Pepper]

Clearly the only reasonable response Planet Fitness can have is to commit to installing warning signage throughout all areas of their gyms so that grown adults are 100% completely aware that people not exactly like themselves are allowed to utilize the gym.

"WARNING: Overweight Persons May be Using This Space"

"WARNING: People With Brown Skin May be Using This Space"

"WARNING: Blondes May Be Using This Space"

"WARNING: Bigots May be Using This Space"

"WARNING: Bullying People For These Differences Will Result in Canceled Membership"

On another yet similar note, several states continue to propose legislation to allow businesses to discriminate against gay customers. :bang: How dumb can people be?

[Athias]

ETA: Seriously mods, we have established in the past that this thread is not to be used to dispute the legitimacy of trans people and they might try and veil it but its clear that is exactly what is being done here. I don't ask for that to be off topic for the entire board, but I do ask for this little corner to be safe.

Who is "they" Karaddin? I actually disagree with Commodore on this one. I don't believe that Planet Fitness had any prerogative to inform her (Yvette Cormier) or any other member that transgenders would be allowed to enter the female locker room. It's their (Planet Fitness's ) property, they can manage it however they like. Secondly, Commodore's arguments are premised on a heteronormative presumption--I go to a gym, and believe me, men aren't the only ones peeping. By that very same token, I've never seen the necessity in distinguishing locker rooms. People are capable of entering each other's personal space--even violate it--regardless of whether you designate one space as "female" and the other as "male."

The difference is that I'm not going to attack Commodore--nor anyone for that matter--because he maintains a different opinion about it. And even topics such as these have room for a little humour, which is why I pointed out the South Park episode.

[karaddin]

It's wonderful that you think from the outside there is room for humour. From the inside I don't think there is in this aspect of it. There are lots of humorous elements on transition but they need to be laughing at the events not the person, and while that might be what the south park episode does, that is not what commodore is doing. I'm also not attacking Commodore for maintaining the opinion, I know the opinions he holds and I don't follow him around abusing him for them, nor do I PM him harassing him. I am attacking him posting those opinions in a thread that has been incredibly important for a small number of individuals and has changed the culture of this board into one I feel safe on, Furthermore I will attack him for thinking that he gets to have an opinion on whether I am legitimate, this is not a simple argument with two sides and two opinions. You have one side with people asserting their right to exist free of discrimination and the other telling them they are delusion and mentally ill. It was bad enough when the medical community supported that position, but "SCIENCE" is against the bigoted opinion these days. He's free to think we are delusional and mentally ill all he wants, but that doesn't make it a legitimate debate that we have to make room for here.

[Dr. Pepper]

The difference is that I'm not going to attack Commodore--nor anyone for that matter--because he maintains a different opinion about it. And even topics such as these have room for a little humour, which is why I pointed out the South Park episode.

It's blindingly obvious that Commodore's intent wasn't to present a different opinion or even to have a discussion about a particular topic. His intent was to deliberately attack in a way that would force others to defend themselves so that he could them fulfill his daily persecution quota by claiming that he's the one being attacked and pretending that he didn't start off the entire thing by bullying. It's just like this Yvette Cormier person. She's trying to claim she was persecuted (I'm sure she shares the same persecution complex Commonore has) while ignoring the fact that she was punished because she's a disgusting bully, not because she feels uncomfortable around people who don't look like what she wants them to look like.

It's not helpful injecting humor into it because it's not at all funny.

[Stubby]

[MOD]

Karaddin has a point about this thread.

In much the same way as some other threads on this forum, please leave comments about the legitimacy of trans people out of it.

Further comments on this derail will be deleted.

[/MOD]

[emberling]

We need a boilerplate like the feminism thread, for example...:

This is an LGBT++ inclusive zone. Trans identity is accepted here without question. This means that posts in this thread must accept these premises:

- Trans women are women. Trans women are female. Trans men are men. Trans men are male.

- Gender is not a strict binary. Genders other than 'male' and 'female' can exist.

- Transgender is not a third gender. Transgender is a word that further describes a gender such as male or female.

- Transgender is an adjective. It is neither a noun nor a verb*.

- Neither gender nor sex is determined by reference solely to genitals, birth certificate, chromosomes, or a combination thereof.

- The appropriate place to pee, shower, or change is not determined solely by reference to genitals, birth certificate, chromosomes, or a combination thereof.

- Cisgender predators do not need nondiscrimination laws in order to harass people in bathrooms. As of this writing no cases of bathroom harassment by persons claiming to be transgender are recorded**.

Furthermore:

- Bisexuality exists.

Any discussion outside these premises should be taken to another thread.

*Exceptions exist. If you aren't sure if it's an exception, assume it's not.

**I am aware of one hoax and one well-publicized incident where the plaintiffs claim that the mere thought of a trans woman in their bathroom is inherently harassing.

----

Reminder: If one were to accept the absurd premise that transgender women in women's rooms would increase the risk of cisgender women being harassed or assaulted by disguised cisgender men, the plan of putting transgender women in the men's room is just saying that it's okay if transgender women get harassed and assaulted a whole bunch as long as the cisgender women are a little bit safer

Reminder: trans men exist and basically make the whole argument look extremely stupid if you consider for a moment that trans men exist

Reminder: no, trans women don't actually just walk around lookin' exactly like cis men and demand you treat us as women

like, not unless the place you're walking around in is called "LGBT Center of Wherever"

Feel free to debate or ignore the thing up top, add LGB stuff, rephrase it so that neurotypicals can read it etc. I tried to keep it within stepping distance of broader LGBT-aware society but I obviously have my own perspective. I left off anything about accepting peoples' stated identity without question because IME when online that is trollbait.

[brook]

That all looks pretty spot on to me (and I appreciated the furthermore)

So for a tiny little ray of positivity... I was at mardi gras (which despite the name is actually the sydney pride parade) this weekend...

Now tradition is that every year the parade is started by the 'dykes on bikes' pretty sure the name is self explanatory there.

This year one of the two lead bikes had an absolutely huge trans flag which made me really happy.

[karaddin]

Yes that at the start of every thread please.

On an unrelated note, we just had a tv show here thats normally politics, however it had an all womens panel for international womens day. It completed ignored that Sydney Pride was the day before that and made zero effort to be intersectional, it had Germaine Greer on it and she was once again given free reign to be as offensive as hell while all these women who should have been better laughed and patted her on the back.