LGBTQI - The NYT says genderqueers are Real!

[Robin Of House Hill]

How does this help us and can you get the general public to believe it?

ETA: How many decades will it take to overcome the common belief of what sex is, as shown here?

[TerraPrime]

The binary-ness in the concept of biological sex is probably never going to go away, or at least not for a long, long, long time, regardless of what science says. too many thousands of years of historical momentum.

I think there's a point to be made about communication directed to the outgroup versus that which is directed to the ingroup. As we talk amongst ourselves here, I think it's okay to play with the newer ideas of conceptualizing sex and the determination thereof, without necessarily taking that discussion to the larger society.

[Weeping Sore]

I was browsing androgynous looks and ran across this:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/suburban-mom-wows-family-with-most-androgynous-loo,34397/

I had to laugh, though I hope no one here takes offense...

[karaddin]

"The idea of two sexes is simplistic. Biologists now think there is a wider spectrum than that."

While interesting, it will be a long while before society, in general, think any of that is true.

Just because the public is slow to accept something doesn't make it any less true. I didn't think we were confining our discussion to popular conceptions, or we would certainly not be putting trans identity as legitimate as a starting point for this thread, but what we ourselves think or know and strategies for acceptance - both wider acceptance and within ourselves.

On an unrelated note I've recently become friends with another trans woman who was really struggling yesterday. She seems to have an insensitivity to estrogen similar to androgen insensitivity, so it's not changing her much at all certainly not as much as she'd like, and is worried even with FFS she won't ever be read as anything other than trans. She used the phrase man in a dress which I pounced on and made her promise never to think of herself like that again because I know that's not a throwaway line, but there isnt much more I know to help her, other than finding some cure for the estrogen insensitivity...her levels are at double the level i was basically going nuts at. Anyone heard of this issue or any treatment for it?

[TerraPrime]

other than finding some cure for the estrogen insensitivity...her levels are at double the level i was basically going nuts at. Anyone heard of this issue or any treatment for it?

I don't know enough to really offer anything useful, but I hope she's seeing an endocrinologist for specialized diagnosis? If one of her other hormones are out of normal range it could very well reduce the efficacy of the estrogen.

[karaddin]

I don't know enough to really offer anything useful, but I hope she's seeing an endocrinologist for specialized diagnosis? If one of her other hormones are out of normal range it could very well reduce the efficacy of the estrogen.

Her T levels are down to negligible via androgen blocker just as mine were so its not that particular one. She is seeing an endo, but I'm thinking she may need a more specialised one than is even available in Aus.

It segued into another conversation resulting in me convincing myself that chimeric intersex condition is still possible for me, she was amazed at how defined my hips were pre transition at low/borderline unhealthy weight levels. I want someone to research me!

[emberling]

re: discussion of sex definition

As pertains to the thread, I don't think any codified accepted definition of sex is needed or advisable. It would be contentious no matter what, from a lot of directions. All that's needed is a codified rejection of the specific maldefinitions of sex often forwarded in attempts to dehumanize trans people.

[Robin Of House Hill]

Just because the public is slow to accept something doesn't make it any less true. I didn't think we were confining our discussion to popular conceptions, or we would certainly not be putting trans identity as legitimate as a starting point for this thread, but what we ourselves think or know and strategies for acceptance - both wider acceptance and within ourselves.

Sorry, maybe I'm so wrapped up in what I see happening regarding pending legislation in multiple jurisdictions, that I've just gotten tired of hearing theories that might make us feel good, when I was hoping to hear ideas we could use, here and now.

Sorry for the short reply, but I've been trying to deal with something all day and haven't been too successful. It might sound silly, but last year< I had a friend on facebook who was a joy to have conversations with, but as the year progressed, she embraced gender critical radical feminism. I tried to get her to moderate the stridency of the things she was saying to people, because I knew she would be vilified. She blocked me on every social media site, but I continued to follow her blog posts. This morning I saw one and it was vile. But, instead of hating her, I just cried because I remember what she used to be like and the fun stuff we talked about. It was like I was mourning those memories. I've never mourned or allowed myself to feel loss before this, and it doesn't feel good. Sorry, I am probably not making any sense.

[karaddin]

But it is still stuff we can use here and now, you never change the conversation by conceding the argument before you've even started. It's what the left in US politics has done on a bunch of issues and it fails every time, if you cede the language used to your opponents they've already won half the fight. It doesn't matter whether the general population will accept it yet or not, you start using what is according to current scientific research the most useful definition of sex, over time things shift. Nothing will win this over night, but despite the backlash and the deaths that are happening, despite the bigots coming out of the woodwork to try openly oppress us, we are winning. Commodore is coming in here and dropping that horrid link because the gym had the protective policy that we want in place. More and more people are accepting of us, despite the more accurate murder counts we are seeing. You see it all through a very negative lens and miss some of the amazing things that are happening, the progress that is being demonstrated. That we are fighting for non-binary rights now instead of just for the more acceptable transsexuals that will be good high femme straight girls after transition (which even you didn't fit). That we have this space on the board, that I appealed to the Mods and Stubby agreed and declared this a safe space. Sure they can have that argument elsewhere on the board if they want, and I'll go there and I'll show them wrong with current scientific research and with myself, and they won't listen to it - but people reading the thread will. Transphobia in general has become verboten on the board, Brook has mentioned seeing it shot down up in the book section by people that don't even venture down here.

When people are visible and fight for change, it slowly happens. The murder rate in the US is as much a function of race as it is of transphobia, it's that intersection of blackness and trans that is super deadly and the issues need to be tackled together. That's why I was so pleased to see some LGBTQI support for Ferguson protests and some pro LGBTQI stuff returned by the protesters there. We are all allies in this, regardless of what is the reason of our oppression and that is the power of umbrellas, to bring people together to work together, not to say that everyone under them is exactly the same. I've got a lot more in common with you than emberling if you simply looked at our trans status, but I feel compelled to stand up for em because she is facing a much tougher road than I walked and she deserves me support 100%. Being trans isn't part of my identity, it's part of my history in all ways and it's changed me for the better in a great many ways, but it's not who I am. Who I am can't be distilled down to a single word, and if you tried the closest you could get is "woman". Any attempt to describe me in all my details takes a hell of a lot more than just "transsexual woman" or "lesbian transsexual woman" so I never understand why you feel this great loss at the word transgender being used to find a larger umbrella than transsexual did, it's not like it encapsulated the entirety of who you are as a person, no one is that simple.

[brook]

Also just a slightly different note - talking about sex in more than simple black/white binary terms is tremendously important for many intersex people who are currently fighting for their right to not have invasive surgery performed on them when they are incapable of consenting and, for those who identify outside the binary to be recognised and get full legal rights to be seen as they people they are.

It's not my fight but that doesn't mean I feel its ok to wash my hands of it.

[Robin Of House Hill]

Karaddin,

Well, maybe this will get my mind off something else, sh here goes. You can't get around the opponent's position, unless you can undermine their argument, so I don't see my view as conceding anything. I see it as being selective of those arguments that stand a chance of succeeding. If our opponents are using what the majority consider established facts, we must counter them with what cannot be considered anything but fact. Theories that don't have don't rise to that level.

As far as my negative lens, remember when all the advocacy groups were trumpeting how much progress we made? Hear anyone saying that now. Wait till 2016 and tell me if you still think I'm looking through a negative lens.

As far as my issues with the word transgender, they are multiple. As an identifier or descriptor, it has no specificity as to what I am or am not.. I saw a graphic as to all the labels under the transgender umbrella. Three pertained to me, while twenty-three did not. It included categories that pertain to expression with no underlying identity, so those are not gender issues at all. From an organizational standpoint or operational standpoint, umbrella organizations where those encompassed by them are diverse, tend to prioritize more than multitask. Which portion of the groups sets the priorities? Remember what happened under the LGBT umbrella? The same applies to the transgender umbrella.

[emberling]

of the diverse groups under the quote transgender umbrella unquote, who do you imagine is getting prioritized at your expense?

if anyone is dominating the quote transgender umbrella unquote in the way that LG folks have historically dominated LBGT++ activism, it is without question binary or binary-passing transsexual folks

[karaddin]

of the diverse groups under the quote transgender umbrella unquote, who do you imagine is getting prioritized at your expense?

if anyone is dominating the quote transgender umbrella unquote in the way that LG folks have historically dominated LBGT++ activism, it is without question binary or binary-passing transsexual folks

This exactly. WE are the dominant grouping under the umbrella, we have gotten what resources and advocacy have gone into trans rights.

As for trumpeting how much progress we've made, hear anyone doing that now? Yes. Me. We have a RomCom doing the tour of movie festivals starring an actual trans woman who was picked off youtube and taught to act and is apparently fantastic. We have a trans actress playing a trans character in a TV Show coming out this year called Sense8. We have a whole range of concrete improvements. You seem to think that the tragic deaths that are occurring mean no progress is being made, they don't. It means we are engaged in an awful fight in which some of our sisters are dying, that doesn't mean things on the whole aren't improving.

I've tried to avoid making this comparison because I don't think it's nice, but look at your transition and coming out and contrast it with mine. The person who helped inspire your transition was murdered, you were outed and went to ground on the other side of the country and started a whole new life. I continued my life essentially uninterrupted, accepted by my entire large family, friends and work network. I'd call that progress. I don't need to hide. I'd call that progress. I could still be stealth if I wanted, but I don't have to be, I call that progress.

[Robin Of House Hill]

of the diverse groups under the quote transgender umbrella unquote, who do you imagine is getting prioritized at your expense?

if anyone is dominating the quote transgender umbrella unquote in the way that LG folks have historically dominated LBGT++ activism, it is without question binary or binary-passing transsexual folks

Your assumption that it is a question of, "at my expense ", is way off base. I obtained my healthcare requirements, ID, employment and housing long before there was a transgender community or organizations. I'm retired now , so there isn't much they can do for me and probably only one issue that they could back that would be harmful to me. But that hasn't happened yet.

[emberling]

also maybe we should consider that some random infographic that you saw once is maybe not the ultimate source of meaning for the word transgender; perhaps, like most other words, it can mean things differently in different contexts and does not always drag around this odious cluster of hangers-on that accrue exclusively when some well-meaning activist brainstorms every single person who might benefit from the fight against transphobia and proclaims from on high that we are all united in hopes that wishing will make it so

Your assumption that it is a question of, "at my expense ", is way off base. I obtained my healthcare requirements, ID, employment and housing long before there was a transgender community or organizations. I'm retired now , so there isn't much they can do for me and probably only one issue that they could back that would be harmful to me. But that hasn't happened yet.

oh, look, it is another non sequitur

it must be migration season, they are everywhere

[Robin Of House Hill]

Well then, maybe someday, the word will get a universal definition. Of course, it will be created by a committee. *sigh*

[Robin Of House Hill]

also maybe we should consider that some random infographic that you saw once is maybe not the ultimate source of meaning for the word transgender; perhaps, like most other words, it can mean things differently in different contexts and does not always drag around this odious cluster of hangers-on that accrue exclusively when some well-meaning activist brainstorms every single person who might benefit from the fight against transphobia and proclaims from on high that we are all united in hopes that wishing will make it so

oh, look, it is another non sequitur

it must be migration season, they are everywhere

It is obvious we have no common ground on which we agree.

[TerraPrime]

Whoah people. Whence the level of antagonism? We disagree on some issues, but we agree a lot more than we disagree. If a firing squad comes for the social outcasts, we are, all of us, lined up against the wall, our difference in opinion about sex definition notwithstanding. Yes, discussions on identities are hard because these things are personal. I empathize with that and I can see the difficulty manifested. But let's keep in mind that we are all allies to each other in this thread, and in practice.

[Weeping Sore]

Yes, we should unite against the common enemy. The Judean People's Front! www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE

[Dr. Pepper]

Your assumption that it is a question of, "at my expense ", is way off base. I obtained my healthcare requirements, ID, employment and housing long before there was a transgender community or organizations. I'm retired now , so there isn't much they can do for me and probably only one issue that they could back that would be harmful to me. But that hasn't happened yet.

I'm not meaning to kick a hornet's nest or anything. I'm just trying to understand your position on this. Earlier in the thread, you commented on sex being something that could only be determined by science, specifically chromosomes (though, I think there are at least four other factors that are used to determine sex, but that's another topic). How would this work when it comes to things like ID, health insurance, and such? Let's say Jane was assigned male at birth. She has never had genetic testing but she has reason to believe she is XY. Despite XY, she is absolutely a woman. Is your position that she can not claim to also be female?