[BOOK AND SHOW SPOILERS] The Great Schism ... fine my me.

[giant snake]

It is obvious now that the books and the show are going to diverge more wildly. I say let it happen to the extreme.

I can't believe I'm quoting a cracked article...

http://www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/why-we-should-be-glad-game-thrones-ditching-books/

A lot of good points. Pretty much hits the nail on the head on every single point on page 2. I don't know the author's background, but I know a good deal about history myself, and I think I am a little smarter than what the HBO execs tend to assume about their audience.

I do think that Theon and all of the Ironborn's turn-around in the show is one of the most egregious and pointless changes. So they probably won't take over Westeros entirely and get the iron throne for themselves...so what?? Why make them into something that they weren't just because their importance is limited in the grand scheme? It doesn't matter whether they are the most popular or one of the 'main factions.' There is no reason to take something interesting and throw it away. I really don't get the change unless they are simply assuming that a modern audience won't identify with a warrior culture, so they just won't portray one. I can only imagine what they'll try to do to tell Dorne's story and show their uniqueness.

Let the show-runners play out the story entirely different from here - who cares? Okay GRRM says that he doesn't like people making fan-fiction of his work. I can respect that, especially because he says that fan-fiction hampers real creativity. I think GRRM is a pragmatist though. He is basically making money from the most famous fan-fiction of all time, and he even dabbled a bit when he wrote Blackwater (which changed the character of Stannis into a young Robert). I really want to believe that the muse hasn't left, but it's better to wait for him to get ideas for a book than for him to rush something out so that the show's canon closely resembles the books.

Maybe this can end all canon wars, or at least go a long way in showing how they are unimportant. Books as a medium are meant to flex your mind and imagination, while a show is meant to entertain you and showcase the talents of a whole crew of people. Trying to tell someone that doesn't read how you really need to read the books to get the whole story is a waste of time. If they don't want to read it, then why would you describe how it is better or how the show goes wrong? Some things simply can't be as well done in a movie as they can by story telling, and vice versa. With the show's story missing the point of the books in many places, I am more willing to accept them as a new take on the books rather than something that needs to follow them exactly. It's why comic movies would fail if they did the comic's story exactly.

[Caesar Targaryen]

I think it will have the same ending and hit most of the same plot beats, but how it happens/who's involved will be switched around.

I also think that this was inevitable with AFFC and ADWD. The previous three books were structured in a way that allowed D&D to adapt them on a book-by-book basis, while the most recent two have a much greater scope in that events take place concurrently between them, and being constrained to adapting them into one season meant that corners had to be cut (ideally, I would have taken two seasons to adapt them, but that's irrelevant now). So a lot (not all mind you) could be considered a necessary evil in that regard.

[giant snake]

I think it's fair to say I'm a long time ASoIaF fan. I picked them up for the first time more than ten years ago. I think like any fan, I've pretty much accepted that the story isn't going to be complete any time soon. That's fine. I've got other books to read and enough ASoIaF artwork and games out there if I want to interact with the world with other people.

If GRRM's original idea for the Iron Throne is played out onscreen, but I have to wait ten more years to see a higher quality - but DIFFERENT - story, I won't be unhappy.

[The Reckoner]

I like that we'll have less book plots spoiled with the schism in place.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Putting my opinion of Martin and his writing pace aside (which isn't exactly very good, fyi), the assumption of how HBO is "improving" his work with the changes and stuff is... well... one of the most arrogant things told to an author I've ever read IRL and online. "Oh, I'm glad HBO is 'summarizing' stuff because it's terrible to read that in the books and it was so boring and leaded to nowhere" said those who are already told how significant this or that plot will be at the end, and which characters we should simply not even like or care for because won't matter at the end, which completely befuddles me as it's often the other way around: people wishing for the adaptation not ignoring stuff but actually using them. If GRRM is an author that fills his books with endless arcs that lead to nowhere, I have no idea what people keep reading them...

It's even worst, considering that it was D&D who approached GRRM to tell him they wouldn't fuck up and understand his story because they are now pretty much telling him to his face "well, George: your history doesn't really work as we though. We're butchering and adding rapes an tits and asses because the audience are dumb idiots, thanks, bye!".

And it's even waaaay more arrogant to pretend that those of us who like certain scenes and are watching the ADAPTATION of a book because we wanted to see those things, well, ADAPTED, should simply shut up our mouths, stop complaining and say "well, yeah, that's fine... I was wrong for liking them in first place! I should I've liked something more popular instead and now I will use my imagination!". I can use my imagination by reading and not watching HBO, you know?

[The Reckoner]

I want a good adaptation rather than a slavish one. No one's saying that you're wrong for liking them. Personally, I preferred Stannis's book entrance moreso than the show's version. I also liked the book's HotU moreso than the show's version. It hasn't been a perfected word for word translation, but by no means is it a disaster. I would imagine people keep reading because they really love how George handles some of the characters. I know that this is true for me when it comes to Mel, Stannis, Euron, Daario, Cersei, Tyrion and Jon. I like them enough to persevere through easily condensed arcs like Sam's in AFFC, or Brienne's in AFFC, or Bran's throughout the books.

[Le Cygne]

And it's even waaaay more arrogant to pretend that those of us who like certain scenes and are watching the ADAPTATION of a book because we wanted to see those things, well, ADAPTED, should simply shut up our mouths, stop complaining and say "well, yeah, that's fine... I was wrong for liking them in first place! I should I've liked something more popular instead and now I will use my imagination!". I can use my imagination by reading and not watching HBO, you know?

Stop making so much sense! It's just not the same story.

[ADanceWithCats]

Putting my opinion of Martin and his writing pace aside (which isn't exactly very good, fyi), the assumption of how HBO is "improving" his work with the changes and stuff is... well... one of the most arrogant things told to an author I've ever read IRL and online.

[...]

If GRRM is an author that fills his books with endless arcs that lead to nowhere, I have no idea what people keep reading them...

Why? I mean, why is it arrogant? Nobody is perfect, no body of work is perfect, and a lot of things can be improved. And having hindsight helps make this decision. You're essentially saying that an editor is arrogant.

Also, while people do keep reading, a lot of people have come from recent books with a 'meh' opinion.

And it's even waaaay more arrogant to pretend that those of us who like certain scenes and are watching the ADAPTATION of a book because we wanted to see those things, well, ADAPTED, should simply shut up our mouths, stop complaining and say "well, yeah, that's fine... I was wrong for liking them in first place! I should I've liked something more popular instead and now I will use my imagination!". I can use my imagination by reading and not watching HBO, you know?

Nah, the matter is different. When people complain, they tend to complain very loudly, dominate the discussion and spoil it for those who are actually pretty satisfied. That's pretty impolite, because it's not like you're directing your complaints to HBO - you're spoiling the lives of fellow humans who just want to share the enjoyment they are having. So, it's no wonder people get pretty pissy.

Stop watching if the show doesn't align to your tastes. Oh... but you can't, can you?

e: I mean, for example, personally, I vastly prefer the show version of the story, so I don't think I will read the next books, even if they do get published.

[giant snake]

^ I disagree with your preference entirely but I think you are arriving at the same point. I can't possibly see how the show can be preferred to the books, in most respects, but I know that there are people who do. Heck even a game designer I really respect (Alan Ray, who makes wargames) thinks that the show is far superior. I'll never understand that viewpoint, but letting them have theirs is fine by me...as long as I can have my own divergent form as well.

[Vegeta_Greyjoy]

Maybe this can end all canon wars, or at least go a long way in showing how they are unimportant. Books as a medium are meant to flex your mind and imagination, while a show is meant to entertain you and showcase the talents of a whole crew of people. Trying to tell someone that doesn't read how you really need to read the books to get the whole story is a waste of time. If they don't want to read it, then why would you describe how it is better or how the show goes wrong? Some things simply can't be as well done in a movie as they can by story telling, and vice versa. With the show's story missing the point of the books in many places, I am more willing to accept them as a new take on the books rather than something that needs to follow them exactly. It's why comic movies would fail if they did the comic's story exactly.

Ah yes, people that have not read ASOIAF are clearly illiterate.

[The hairy bear]

The author of the article ignores the fact that there are people whose enjoyment depends, on a great level, of the element of surprise. There's always a very special feeling in the very first time that you experience a story. I know that I would pay a lot of money to be able to experience some of my favourite novels for the first time again.

I agree with the article that this ship has sailed, but I surely would have preferred knowing "the ending" as written by Martin twenty years from now, instead of descovering through whatever the TV show can deliver in a couple of years.

[giant snake]

Ah yes, people that have not read ASOIAF are clearly illiterate.

I'm sorry you are too subtle and clever for me. Surely I am wrong when I think that illiterate means that you are unable to read, whereas I was talking about a lot of people simply don't want to invest time into reading the books. I am very sorry if you feel the need to be offended at something that was not intended to offend anyone. Please forgive me and chastise me further.

The author of the article ignores the fact that there are people whose enjoyment depends, on a great level, of the element of surprise. There's always a very special feeling in the very first time that you experience a story. I know that I would pay a lot of money to be able to experience some of my favourite novels for the first time again.

I agree with the article that this ship has sailed, but I surely would have preferred knowing "the ending" as written by Martin twenty years from now, instead of descovering through whatever the TV show can deliver in a couple of years.

I very much enjoyed the surprises on my first read-through as well. Even still, I enjoy reading about characters who I know are doomed or about chapters that only exist to flesh out the world. To me, who gets on the iron throne isn't really as important as how they got there. The character interactions and dialogue matters to the story and it matters to me.

A lot of the show has to be stylistic because they can't evoke the same kind of memories and things like the POV style of the books can. It's why they took an utterly reprehensible character like Shae and made her into a totally different and very sympathetic heroine. The article is definitely right when they assume that the screenwriters think we're all stupid. They changed Shae to have an ongoing conflict, but they had brought up Tysha way back. They simply left this out and made a silly love story instead.

I guess what I'm trying to say with that example is that the same events may happen in the show as in the books, but they usually have a lot less heart and realism behind them. There are a few exceptions, of course. Tyrion is much more sympathetic in the show, and his last trial is actually a lot better done - I get the impression that he is truly hurt for what everyone has done to him, rather than the devil may care, tougher Tyrion of the books. The majority of changes are reversed though. I never liked Robb in the show at all, and if I hadn't started with the books, I would never have cared about him as a character.

[The Man from Nowhere]

I agree. There's no way the show can incorporate all or even a lot of the book material as they don't have enough time in 10 episodes a season without the risk of diluting the quality. I think they will have free reign with the last few seasons story wise other than the general points George had told them. Although I feel that the success of the shows story is down to just how well written and coherent the books have been up to this point. And I don't see GRRM spending his time consulting for them in the near future. He is supposed to be knuckling down to get this next book done.

[Vegeta_Greyjoy]

I'm sorry you are too subtle and clever for me. Surely I am wrong when I think that illiterate means that you are unable to read, whereas I was talking about a lot of people simply don't want to invest time into reading the books. I am very sorry if you feel the need to be offended at something that was not intended to offend anyone. Please forgive me and chastise me further.

I very much enjoyed the surprises on my first read-through as well. Even still, I enjoy reading about characters who I know are doomed or about chapters that only exist to flesh out the world. To me, who gets on the iron throne isn't really as important as how they got there. The character interactions and dialogue matters to the story and it matters to me.

A lot of the show has to be stylistic because they can't evoke the same kind of memories and things like the POV style of the books can. It's why they took an utterly reprehensible character like Shae and made her into a totally different and very sympathetic heroine. The article is definitely right when they assume that the screenwriters think we're all stupid. They changed Shae to have an ongoing conflict, but they had brought up Tysha way back. They simply left this out and made a silly love story instead.

I guess what I'm trying to say with that example is that the same events may happen in the show as in the books, but they usually have a lot less heart and realism behind them. There are a few exceptions, of course. Tyrion is much more sympathetic in the show, and his last trial is actually a lot better done - I get the impression that he is truly hurt for what everyone has done to him, rather than the devil may care, tougher Tyrion of the books. The majority of changes are reversed though. I never liked Robb in the show at all, and if I hadn't started with the books, I would never have cared about him as a character.

Oh calm down I'm just poking fun.

[giant snake]

I agree. There's no way the show can incorporate all or even a lot of the book material as they don't have enough time in 10 episodes a season without the risk of diluting the quality. I think they will have free reign with the last few seasons story wise other than the general points George had told them. Although I feel that the success of the shows story is down to just how well written and coherent the books have been up to this point. And I don't see GRRM spending his time consulting for them in the near future. He is supposed to be knuckling down to get this next book done.

I would say that I wouldn't care if they introduced entirely new plot-lines or expanded on others, but the way they completely bungled Ros and Locke makes me doubt that the talent is simply not there. It is very jarring and almost seems like they totally change their minds from one season to the next. I'm sad to say, but the books sort of feel that way, but I know of no characters that are quite that much of a waste of time. I like the Bloody Mummers and others from Arya's story. I like the Freys from a story point of view. I don't care that there is a bit too much build up because they are simply minor plots that you are not only satisfied to see come to their conclusion, but also offer valuable character insights. Remember Jaime's comment about a crossbow being a coward's weapon? That was very telling about his non-influence on Joffrey. I also like how the books understand that you have patience and don't make characters so one dimensional or pandering.

I think the show will continue to do well and I'm optimistic that it will be for the right reasons. Again, not all of the changes are bad. There is a serious drop in quality from season to season, but I think that it is mainly about editing when it comes to quality. I hate how they change a lot of the characters, but that doesn't mean that they are poorly acted or that the scenes themselves are less interesting.

[A Bastard Brother]

I am hoping they end very differently. I dont like waiting for the books but I dont want to read the books knowing the endings. I also am not going to avoid spoilers for the next decade.

Best case scenario the show runs a few more seasons and has a good ending, but at the same time the books and show differ enough that by the time I put down book 7, 8, 9 or wherever it ends I dont think about how I saw that 10 years before on HBO.

Face it the WoW is not coming out this year and may not be next year... how many years between books? Even if the 7th book is the last one and he finishes it faster than any other book we still have at least 5 years.

[oierem]

The author of the article ignores the fact that there are people whose enjoyment depends, on a great level, of the element of surprise. There's always a very special feeling in the very first time that you experience a story. I know that I would pay a lot of money to be able to experience some of my favourite novels for the first time again.

I agree with the article that this ship has sailed, but I surely would have preferred knowing "the ending" as written by Martin twenty years from now, instead of descovering through whatever the TV show can deliver in a couple of years.

Yeah, but that's a problem Martin himself created when he sold the rights to do the TV show. With half of the story waiting to be written and knowing his own slow writing pace (plus the constant bloating of his original ideas because of the "gardener" approach), he should've waited before giving the rights away.

Of course, the idea that a TV show based on ASOIAF would be succesful enough to air for 7 seasons was just a dream back then.

[Le Cygne]

The author of the article ignores the fact that there are people whose enjoyment depends, on a great level, of the element of surprise. There's always a very special feeling in the very first time that you experience a story. I know that I would pay a lot of money to be able to experience some of my favourite novels for the first time again.

I agree with the article that this ship has sailed, but I surely would have preferred knowing "the ending" as written by Martin twenty years from now, instead of descovering through whatever the TV show can deliver in a couple of years.

It's true, there is something special about that. And they've gone off in their own direction in so many ways, I wish they had done so entirely at this point, it's not only seeing the ending, but these very different characters acting it out.

[aFeastForDragons]

There's always a very special feeling in the very first time that you experience a story. I know that I would pay a lot of money to be able to experience some of my favourite novels for the first time again.

I agree with the article that this ship has sailed, but I surely would have preferred knowing "the ending" as written by Martin twenty years from now, instead of descovering through whatever the TV show can deliver in a couple of years.

I would love to be able read the last few chapters from ASOS for the first time again.

I only jumped on the books after Season 2 but I still feel the ending should be Martin's to tell. Its like a band releasing a tribute album where the actual band hasn't even released the original album.

[Le Cygne]

The last few chapters of ASOS were awesome. That was such a good book. It wouldn't have been the same at all, had I been spoiled.