[BOOK AND SHOW SPOILERS] Has the show peaked?

[Borodin]

20 minutes is not a lot of time.

Incidentally, 20 minutes is about the amount of screen time dedicated to each of Viserys Targaryen, Roose Bolton, Jojen Reed, Ros, and Jeor Mormont in the first four seasons of the show. Lots of time to build up a back story or character.

[TheLeviathan73]

Well I am doing some outlining of a hypothetical season 5. Obviously I have no idea about how much things cost and stuff. But the plan is to outline things within 10, 1 hour episodes. I think it's possible by shifting some material back to S4.

And that might be helpful, there are certainly things the show didn't include and should have. At the same time, those first seasons were so packed we missed out on more time with many characters even during those years. Right Loras?

When you don't know what the future holds, it's sort of hard to properly prepare for it. I'm guessing D + D, much like the rest of us, believed Martin when he promised his 6th book much, much sooner. That likely affected their decision making.

As for Arienne, you might find the time to wedge her in...but that's just one of the stories you insist on. Starting to see how this gets difficult?

[protar]

And that might be helpful, there are certainly things the show didn't include and should have. At the same time, those first seasons were so packed we missed out on more time with many characters even during those years. Right Loras?

When you don't know what the future holds, it's sort of hard to properly prepare for it. I'm guessing D + D, much like the rest of us, believed Martin when he promised his 6th book much, much sooner. That likely affected their decision making.

As for Arienne, you might find the time to wedge her in...but that's just one of the stories you insist on. Starting to see how this gets difficult?

Well the thing is, most of the plots I want from the books do get some degree of coverage in the show, just with all of their heart and a lot of characters ripped out. I truly think that the plot development that has happened so far in S5 could be covered in half as many episodes. So I am optimistic.

[roxWolfox]

I agree that the intent of the books changed. But I disagree as to how they changed. Feast and Dance are clearly supposed to be slower, more introspective books. They're supposed to be the desolation after the war, the power vacuum as new players come in to claim their stake on the ruins of Westeros. Martin adding in repetitive lines and food descriptions may be annoying to you, but you've got to see how those things are not the same as the actual plot development?

There's a difference between the books being slower and not contributing to the plot. What parts of the last two books don't sufficiently contribute to the plot to you? Dorne and the Iron Islands? Why not? because they're currently not involved with the older characters? Why don't you hold Jon and Dany to that standard? They've been in their own isolated plots for five books but no one would claim they're not important because it is obvious that they are going to tie into the main narrative. Likewise Dorne and the Iron Isles have yet to link up with the main plot, but Martin practically sets up a neon sign saying they'll be important in TWOW.

In the bolded part I disagree. Mr. Martin didn't know how to bring about the 5 year leap into the future without all the flashbacks it would have needed to tie things together, and he scrapped then rewrote most of an entire novel. There was no original plan for introspection or showing the desolation after war from my understanding. The Iron Islands and Dorne seem to be created for the sole purpose of adding more obstacles for Dany to overcome in her quest to claim the Iron Throne or destroy more of Westeros from within.

From what I gather, many of the posters decrying the show truly enjoy the world-building of the last 2 novels; however, there are those of us who want the story that was highlighted in the very first chapter of AGoT. Why start the story there, in the land beyond the Wall with dead wildlings and WWs if that isn't essential?

There are posters who've stated they have no interest in the fantasy, they want the politics. They want the political structure of Dorne and the Iron Islands to be fleshed out. This show is not for them, obviously, as ASoIaF is listed as a Dark Fantasy, not Political Fiction.

The horror of the what the Others are capable of, and the dread that is slowly building up in the novels about their march upon Westeros has been sidelined for the horrors that man inflicts upon man. All the show did this past episode was give the non-book readers the opportunity to see what some of us readers have been waiting to read for years - the true threat to Westeros.

[roxWolfox]

20 minutes is not a lot of time. Money, yes, I agree that was spent on it, but the resource you need for what you want is time and that is limited. It's hard to take the complaint that "this season has sucked because it didn't do X, Y, and Z" when you can't fashion a better alternative when faced with the same constraints the producers have.

Maybe the producers should have spent more time early on, maybe they were also under the same impression as the rest of us that we'd have the 6th novel by now and didn't feel the need to plant seeds for that book early until they knew more about what was going to happen. And they worked early on with the assumption that they'd have that material before the time came. It doesn't excuse the fact that they should've done more with Robert's Rebellion to explain some of those storylines though.

But I would hope a brief exercise in trying to get what you want into the same constraints D + D have make a lot of your wishes more difficult than they may first appear. Especially when you too only have a limited framework of what the future MIGHT hold.

Apparently the very first pilot (the one that was scrapped for one reason or another) did have Aerys II burning the Starks, but they decided to leave the scenes on the cutting floor due to time constraints. They might use the footage in the future, as the casting call for season 6 has many believing young Ned and Robert are to be included. :dunno:

[TheLeviathan73]

Apparently the very first pilot (the one that was scrapped for one reason or another) did have Aerys II burning the Starks, but they decided to leave the scenes on the cutting floor due to time constraints. They might use the footage in the future, as the casting call for season 6 has many believing young Ned and Robert are to be included. :dunno:

That might help and this season they utilized a flashback (for the first time I think?), which might help as well. They've talked around all the major backstory issues, but they haven't been fleshed out well.

My wife watches the show with me and hasn't read the books, I've filled her in on Lyssa and a lot of the historical elements that do influence the show. They would be useful inclusions to help people put it all together I think.

[Cas Stark]

That might help and this season they utilized a flashback (for the first time I think?), which might help as well. They've talked around all the major backstory issues, but they haven't been fleshed out well.

My wife watches the show with me and hasn't read the books, I've filled her in on Lyssa and a lot of the historical elements that do influence the show. They would be useful inclusions to help people put it all together I think.

Maybe. But other than Jon's parentage, what do we need those backstories for, really? A Ned Stark TOJ dream would have been a nice touch, atmospheric, sad, but not sure it was strictly necessary.

Then, I thought the Cersei prophecy flashback was a really odd choice for the show considering that they downplay magic and that nothing they showed was much news to the audience, she already hates her brother, hates Marg, and not including the whole thing...very strange.

I had expected with Dany's vision that she would see Rhaegar or some other past Targaryen or something there that was a little more useful to the audience for the backstory, even though I did like overall what they did w/it.

[Borodin]

As for Arienne, you might find the time to wedge her in...but that's just one of the stories you insist on. Starting to see how this gets difficult?

Not really. Oberyn only got 30 minutes on screen for the whole of Season 4 and he was great. You could give Arienne at least that and still include 70 other characters, no sweat.

[TheLeviathan73]

Maybe. But other than Jon's parentage, what do we need those backstories for, really? A Ned Stark TOJ dream would have been a nice touch, atmospheric, sad, but not sure it was strictly necessary.

Then, I thought the Cersei prophecy flashback was a really odd choice for the show considering that they downplay magic and that nothing they showed was much news to the audience, she already hates her brother, hates Marg, and not including the whole thing...very strange.

I had expected with Dany's vision that she would see Rhaegar or some other past Targaryen or something there that was a little more useful to the audience for the backstory, even though I did like overall what they did w/it.

A lot of it links back to the first two seasons. Questions like "Why is Ned important to Robert" or Jon Arryn or all those other relationships. The show mentions a lot of it in passing, but often so quickly and so early on that if you aren't a book reader it's impossible to keep track of all the names of people you never actually meet/see. In a book that is easier to track, not as much in a TV show. One of the additional challenges the producers have had to navigate in translating the books to screen.

(Doubly so if the characters rumble through the name in an accent)

[Borodin]

The show mentions a lot of it in passing, but often so quickly and so early on that if you aren't a book reader it's impossible to keep track of all the names of people you never actually meet/see.

I didn't read the books till after Season 3 and I had no problem as a show watcher keeping track of characters or plotlines. Once again an assertion that something is "impossible" turns out to be not only "possible" but also quite probable.

[Borodin]

Curious about your handle: TheLeviathan73. What is it a reference to?

[Zyxw]

Episode 9 was a let down. Not just because of Stannis's arc which I would have done differently i.e. disease recurrence leading to self sacrifice etc. but the following portrayals:

1. The professional unsullied - the mightiest and elite soldiers are shown to be so inept at handling basically heavily masked citizens with knives and without armour. I don't know how they got past the unsullied to enter the stadium with those heavy masks.
   
2. Dragons, who are quoted as worth more than any army (possibly the useless unsullied army above) can be injured quite easily and seemingly killed by spears by amateurs in a mask.
   
3. In summary then the combination of unsullied and dragon are not enough to face masked citizens. How are they expected to fight for kingdoms and magical beings? The show has been very inconsistent with these two.
   
4. The camera shot of Dany actually flying looked poor. They should have opted for a distance silhouette instead.
   

[Celtic Cross]

From a quality standpoint, the show peaked in one of the first four seasons depending on your preference. From a ratings/popularity standpoint, I predict that this season (5) or the next (6) will be the first where the ratings go down from previous years. This will all change once The WoW book comes out, however.

[YaDingus Roast Lord]

The best moments of the show were in season 1. The writing was well crafted, the action scenes were well placed and generally great, and the acting was top notch. The show has since expanded in scope obviously, so most of this greatness did not come at a consistent clip thoroughout seasons 2, 3 and 4. Acting got worse for some, dialouge was occasionally cringe inducing and plotlines became more mind-numbingly bad. In season 5 these issues took the forefront and were more apparent than the positives. They still have potential to turn it around, yet it seems like the show has certainly peaked.

[TheLeviathan73]

Record ratings again, people love the show, say what you will about it.

[Borodin]

People love Transformers, too. A lot of people tuned into the final episode of Game of Thrones Season 5 - about the same as the number who tuned in for the first episode - to see if the show would somehow salvage such a terrible season. Alas, it could not. The show has plateaued in terms of ratings.

[TheLeviathan73]

People love Transformers, too. A lot of people tuned into the final episode of Game of Thrones Season 5 - about the same as the number who tuned in for the first episode - to see if the show would somehow salvage such a terrible season. Alas, it could not. The show has plateaued in terms of ratings.

Well, you said that before and were demonstrably wrong. So there's that.

[Borodin]

Well, you said that before and were demonstrably wrong. So there's that.

Average out the ratings for the past two seasons, genius.

6.88 million viewers for Season 5

6.85 million viewers for Season 4

No change over the past two seasons. Season 3 had 4.97 million viewers.

It's plateaued.

[TheLeviathan73]

Average out the ratings for the past two seasons, genius.

6.88 million viewers for Season 5

6.84 million viewers for Season 4

No change over the past two seasons. It's plateaued.

That's not what you said. But you're a troll, so yeah., you were wrong and everyone except you knows it.

[Cas Stark]

That's not what you said. But you're a troll, so yeah., you were wrong and everyone except you knows it.

Yep. People love it. All it took was a sex controversy, big battle and dragons and they got back to 8 million and exceeded it. More bad pussy and eyes gouged out is apparently the secret to success. Who needs plot?