[BOOK AND SHOW SPOILERS] Has the show peaked?

[Cas Stark]

Quentyn's death is widely speculated to be the thing that turns the Dornish away from Dany and into Aegon's arms. But even if not that, Quentyn's existence is vital to Arianne and until TWOW comes out and Arianne dies in the first 50 pages, nothing on earth will convince me that Arianne (and Aegon) are not important. Arys is likewise important to Arianne's development. I don't know if it was necessary to give him a POV, but his existence was very necessary. I don't see how Vic is "probably unimportant". I literally cannot comprehend how we can have a guy with a dragon controlling horn on his way to Meereen and people's reaction is "nope, not important." Brienne's chapters could have been slimmed down I agree. But it's not like her story was entirely pointless.

Sure fine. We already have Dany, Selmy, Arianne and Hotah to tells about Quentyn. We don't him to have his own POV.

Vic is going to get to Meereen and get the 'dracarys' treatment, Dany will have his navy and use it to sail to Westeros. Even GRRM has called him basically a dumb thug. I mean, I liked his chapters better than the Dorne stuff, but I fail to see him as essential. We could also have simply seen him through the eyes of existing POVs...Asha, others in Westeros and then Selmy and Dany and Tyrion when he gets to Essos. We don't need him to have his own POV.

But, we're getting off on a novels sidetrack here, so we can agree to disagree.

However, the weaknesses of the last two novels is no excuse for the stupidity of the show this year.

[Joe Pesci]

I don't see how Vic is "probably unimportant". I literally cannot comprehend how we can have a guy with a dragon controlling horn on his way to Meereen and people's reaction is "nope, not important."

He obviously has importance for the battle of Meereen, but until it is proven that the horn will actually control a dragon, I'm going to reserve my judgement of his importance in the grand scheme of things.

[Borodin]

What is "essential" to the ASOIAF story? Can anyone provide me with a reasonable answer to this question?

[Borodin]

My first double post.

[lancerman]

The difference is Tolkien did it in 3 books and he released all of them in less than a year in a half.

Granted it, in the interest of fairness, it took him about 13 years to actually write them and it wasn't published for another 5. But he didn't have his audience waiting 5-6 years for the continuation of the story and wasn't going to break 20 years of the audience waiting on a story.

So I can forgive GRRM's audience for not exactly being happy that from 2000 to the present all they've gotten were two books, which were really meant to be one book, where the main characters didn't see a whole lot of plot progression and it was all build up for climaxes that are happening in his next book which looks to be taking him another 5 years.

Martin can take however long he wants because I'd rather the books be as they are intended to be than to be rushed, but you can't begrudge the readers who share a frustrated opinion. Likewise, things like that do matter when adapting material.

[Joe Pesci]

What is "essential" to the ASOIAF story? Can anyone provide me with a reasonable answer to this question?

Westeros :thumbsup:

[Cas Stark]

What is "essential" to the ASOIAF story? Can anyone provide me with a reasonable answer to this question?

Here's the general gist of things, which I feel pretty confident with maybe a slight bit of rearranging what is important:

Jon Snow

Daenerys Targaryen

Tyrion Lannister

Bran Stark

Arya Stark

Dragons

Direwolves

Others

Cersei Lannister

Jamie Lannister

Sansa Stark

Stannis Baratheon

Winterfell

King's Landing

The Wall

[Borodin]

The difference is Tolkien did it in 3 books and he released all of them in less than a year in a half.

Meh. It took Joseph Heller 33 years to publish the sequel to Catch-22. Consider yourself lucky. ;)

[Daske]

No one claims otherwise. But opinions can be be supported by argument and evidence. An opinion that is just merely asserted, like "AFFC and ADWD are too difficult to adapt to the screen" is just that...an assertion of an opinion without argument or evidence.

The question isn't really 'is x too difficult to adapt to the screen', it's is 'x too difficult to adapt to the screen and ensure it is enjoyable'.

The biggest departure from the books just got the biggest jump in audience and critical acclaim this season. So it certainly looks like a little bit from column A and a little bit from column B will be what can work from here on out to the end.

In terms of peaking, the show just achieved its second wind imo. The feedback from almost all quarters has been phenomenal.

[Borodin]

Here's the general gist of things, which I feel pretty confident with maybe a slight bit of rearranging what is important:

Jon Snow

Daenerys Targaryen

Tyrion Lannister

Bran Stark

Arya Stark

Dragons

Direwolves

Others

Cersei Lannister

Jamie Lannister

Sansa Stark

Stannis Baratheon

Winterfell

King's Landing

The Wall

How is Arya essential?

[TheLeviathan73]

You're really comparing Arianne with food description? First of all Martin's books have always had food descriptions, even the better loved first three books. They set the scene and for what it's worth a lot of people attribute symbolic significance to the food. But the most important distinction is that we don't get like five chapters of someone making a lamprey pie. It's set dressing, the food never does anything plot relevant. Arianne certainly does. She tries to crown Myrcella, she's going to treat with Aegon.

Way to snip my post and just attack a strawman though.

No I'm not attacking a strawman, I'm getting you to recognize the central point. In AFFC and ADAD we get a LOT more of those kind of run-on descriptions. We get a lot of repetitive dialogue. We get a lot of what looks like that chapter in the bible that lists all 6 billion of Abraham's descendents. That is a shift from the first three books. So my question to you would be why did that shift?

And my answer, personally, is that the authorial intent changed. In the first three books Martin was driven by the core narrative. He was taking us on a ride with his central characters. That intent changed in AFFC when those central characters were largely ignored and their arcs moved very little. Why? Because Martin started world building. That answers the bulk of your post. He's very good at it. Much of what he built is interesting too! But certainly his momentum of the first three books was derailed.

That derailment presents a lot of difficulty in show adaptation when all we have recently from Martin are those two "off to smell the daisies!" books he gave us.

[Joe Pesci]

Meh. It took Joseph Heller 33 years to publish the sequel to Catch-22. Consider yourself lucky. ;)

GRRM still has roughly 3 years in which to do the last two books before he passes up Stephen King's time for finishing the Dark Tower series too...

[Daske]

Double post.

[Borodin]

The question isn't really 'is x too difficult to adapt to the screen', it's is 'x too difficult to adapt to the screen and ensure it is enjoyable'. The biggest departure from the books just got the biggest jump in audience and critical acclaim this season. So it certainly looks like a little bit from column A and a little bit from column B will be what can work from here on out to the end. In terms of peaking, the show just achieved its second wind imo. The feedback from almost all quarters has been phenomenal.

Critical acclaim for Hardhome was not surprising considering the previous 7 epsiodes were some of the worst in the series' history. Anything would have been better. That said, a cheap zombie battle was virtually guaranteed to get attention, even if it was a near complete fabrication by D&D.

I wouldn't call the popularity of this one episode a "second wind".

[TheLeviathan73]

GRRM still has roughly 3 years in which to do the last two books before he passes up Stephen King's time for finishing the Dark Tower series too...

Dark Tower suffered at times from that lag too and King admits it.

In other news, I found this awesome ignore feature. Instantly detrolls this thread. I encourage others to find it!

[marsyao]

The question isn't really 'is x too difficult to adapt to the screen', it's is 'x too difficult to adapt to the screen and ensure it is enjoyable'.

The biggest departure from the books just got the biggest jump in audience and critical acclaim this season. So it certainly looks like a little bit from column A and a little bit from column B will be what can work from here on out to the end.

In terms of peaking, the show just achieved its second wind imo. The feedback from almost all quarters has been phenomenal.

That does not prove anything, TV rating peaks for all kind of crap all the time, as I said previously, "HardHome" is some nothing but some big fancy fighting scenes, all of its purpose is to appease certain audience, despite it makes no logical sense

[Borodin]

When an opinion makes you uncomfortable: ignore, ignore, ignore! :)

[TheLeviathan73]

That does not prove anything, TV rating peaks for all kind of crap all the time, as I said previously, "HardHome" is some nothing but some big fancy fighting scenes, all of its purpose is to appease certain audience, despite it makes no logical sense

I can understand not liking it, but can you elaborate on how it makes "no logical sense"?

[protar]

No I'm not attacking a strawman, I'm getting you to recognize the central point. In AFFC and ADAD we get a LOT more of those kind of run-on descriptions. We get a lot of repetitive dialogue. We get a lot of what looks like that chapter in the bible that lists all 6 billion of Abraham's descendents. That is a shift from the first three books. So my question to you would be why did that shift?

And my answer, personally, is that the authorial intent changed. In the first three books Martin was driven by the core narrative. He was taking us on a ride with his central characters. That intent changed in AFFC when those central characters were largely ignored and their arcs moved very little. Why? Because Martin started world building. That answers the bulk of your post. He's very good at it. Much of what he built is interesting too! But certainly his momentum of the first three books was derailed.

I'm not denying that the latter two books are more indulgent. There's a lot of repeated phrases and a few fairly irrelevant bits of world building like the Three Sisters and Crackclaw point. But I just don't see any evidence that stuff like Dorne and the Iron Isles are part of that irrelevant material. Basically what you're doing is complaining about the fact that there was too much food description and then somehow making this insane leap that this means that all the newly introduced characters are unimportant.

There was a lot of fat to trim in adapting Feast/Dance. But D+D did not cut the fat they cut the meat. Like let's get this back to the topic of the show - how exactly has D+D improved anything from the books? They've cut out big events so that somehow the show is even slower than the books are at this point, and cut out the character development that was the highlight of Feast/Dance.

[Borodin]

That does not prove anything, TV rating peaks for all kind of crap all the time, as I said previously, "HardHome" is some nothing but some big fancy fighting scenes, all of its purpose is to appease certain audience, despite it makes no logical sense

No kidding.

"Hey everyone! It's me, Jon Snow. I've just returned from a major battle with magical creatures who can raise the dead to form a massive army. My story can be corroborated by all these wildlings, some of them injured, and this giant, all of whom risk being slaughtered in coming here but saw no choice given the horror that awaits all the living, north of the wall. We have to band together or we'll all perish!!"

*stab* *stab* *stab*

"Why did you...did you not hear what I just said?! Your motivations for stabbing me don't make any sense whatsoever. I mean, they would if you didn't have this overwhelming evidence in front of you. But because I went to Hardhome and came back with all these injured wildlings, your actions make absolutely no sense."