Is Kevan Lannister the Lord of House Lannister now?

[Bluetiger]

Gerion: Sweet home. Finaly I'm back. Ohhh..... where is everyone? Did I miss something? Tywin? Kevan? Tyrion? What's going on here?

[TheHouseHB]

:huh: :wacko:

[frozy]

Cersei actually hasn't been attainted yet, so technically she isn't excluded from the line. After Cersei's trial, if she loses and is convicted of treason, Tommen and Myrcella may very well be declared bastards and wouldn't inherit, causing the rock to be passed to Lancel

[Lord Varys]

It is Cersei, Tommen, Myrcella, Martyn. Lancel is out of it, as he has given up all rights to lands etc. when he became a Warrior's Son.

This is not really complicated. Whether people will stick to the line of succession is another matter. I could see Daven or Daemion seizing the Rock over Martyn, Janei, and Genna's children should Cersei die and Tommen/Myrcella lose their claims/die as well. Martyn is a child, Kevan is dead, and Dorna does not seem to be a player.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I trot out the old chestnut, now updated post aDwD and also with info from tWoIaF:

Tytos - Ruling Lord (dead, 1st son of Gerold)

Tywin - Ruling Lord (dead, 1st son of Tytos)

Jaime (1st son of Tywin, grandson of Tytos - excluded because of his oaths)

Tyrion (2nd son of Tywin, grandson of Tytos - exluded because of his "crimes")

Cersei - Ruling Lady (1st daughter of Tywin, granddaughter of Tytos, free on parole awaiting trial by the Faith)

Joffrey Baratheon (dead, 1st son of Cersei, grandson of Tywin)

Tommen Baratheon (2nd son of Cersei, grandson of Tywin)

Myrcella Baratheon (1st daughter of Cersei, granddaughter of Tywin)

Kevan (dead, 2nd son of Tytos)

Lancel (1st son of Kevan, grandson of Tytos, also - excluded because of his oaths)

Willem (dead, 2nd son of Kevan, grandson of Tytos)

Martyn (3rd son of Kevan, grandson of Tytos)

Janei (1st daughter of Kevan, granddaughter of Tytos)

Tygett (dead, 3rd son of Tytos)

Tyrek (1st son of Tygett, grandson of Tytos)

Gerion (dead, 4th son of Tytos)

Genna (1st daughter of Tytos)

Cleos Frey (dead, 1st son of Genna, grandson of Tytos)

Tywin Frey (1st son of Cleos, grandson of Genna, great-grandson of Tytos)

Willem Frey (2nd son of Cleos, grandson of Genna, great-grandson of Tytos)

Lyonel Frey (2nd son of Genna, grandson of Tytos)

Tion Frey (dead, 3rd son of Genna, grandson of Tytos)

Walder Frey (4th son of Genna, grandson of Tytos)

(this ends the issue of the line of Lord Tytos)

Damon Lannister (probably dead, 1st cousin of Tywin, nephew of Tytos - the son of Tytos' younger brother Jason, and grandson of Tytos' father Gerold)

Damion Lannister (son of Damon Lannister by his first wife, grandson of Jason)

Lucion Lannister (son of Damion, grandson of Damon)

Lanna Lannister (daughter of Damion, granddaughter of Damon)

Stafford Lannister (dead, 1st cousin of Tywin, nephew of Tytos - the son of Tytos' brother Jason, and grandson of Tytos' father Gerold)

Daven Lannister (1st son of Stafford, great-nephew of Tytos, great-grandson of Tybolt)

Cerenna Lannister (1st daughter of Stafford, great-niece of Tytos, great-granddaughter of Tybolt)

Myrielle Lannister (2nd daughter of Stafford, great-niece of Tytos, great-granddaughter of Tybolt)

Unnamed Brother (status unknown)

Unnamed Brother (status unknown)

Joanna Lannister (dead, 1st cousin of Tywin, niece of Tytos, granddaughter of Tybolt)

Unnamed Sister (status unknown)*

Unnamed Sister (status unknown)*

(this entire branch is descended from Tytos' younger brother Jason)

*I wouldn't be surprised if one of the unnamed sisters is Margot Lannister, thus making her Lady Joanna's sister.

Tytos was Gerolds third son, not his first.

And Margot Lannister is said to be "an even more distant cousin" than, IIRC, Damion. In any case, she's definitly not Joanna's sister, unless the appendix contains a mistake there.

[Lord Varys]

I think we have to (or could) assume that Margot is also a child of Jason, as Daemion already should have been a more distant cousin than Stafford/Joanna, which he is not, and Lady Margot an even more distant cousin.

Source for this is the 'Queen Regent' section of the AFfC appendix.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

If Margot was a sister of Joanna and Stafford, she would have been named in the family tree. There was plenty of room, both for her and her marriage. In addition, she wouldn't have been a cousin, but an aunt ;)

Damion is seen as a "distant" cousin, when compared to all the cousins mentioned in that appendix, because his father Damon is the half-brother of Joanna, not a full brother. All the other cousins that are mentioned, are either children of Tywin's full-siblings, or Joanna's full-siblings. That Margot is a "cousin still more distant" then suggests that she's removed from Joanna (and Tywin) even further. It doesn't seem to be that she descents from Damon, and if she was a full sibling of Joanna, she would have been an aunt (not a cousin). If she were a child of Joanna's unnamed brothers, she would be a cousin in the same sense that Daven, Cerenna, and Myrielle are cousins... Meaning, not a cousin "still more distant". So Jason's branch doesn't seem to be the one.

[Monctonvike]

I would argue that his death would slightly harm his claim.

:agree: :cheers:

/Thread

[myufa]

Not even Cersie. She's queen regent, a woman, and not very popular. It would be that castellan of Casterly Rock. I can't remember his first name but he was at the seige of riverrun.

[Mikkel]

No he's the Lord of House I was Murdered by a Bald Velveteen Triple Agent with no Genitals and his Troop of Child Spies. It's a small house, but contains some major players.

What are their House words or sigil I wonder?

I propose this as their sigil: :blushing:

and

"oh for FUCKS sake!"

as their House words.

edit:

a bit like this:

http://imgbin.org/index.php?page=image&id=22416

[Boarsbane]

Not even Cersie. She's queen regent, a woman, and not very popular. It would be that castellan of Casterly Rock. I can't remember his first name but he was at the seige of riverrun.

Damion Lannister is castellan, Daven Lannister was at Riverrun and is Warden of the West.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I really don't see the issue. The books identify that after Tywin's death, Cersei became the Lady of CR. Her titles haven't been taken away since, and neither has she died, so she still is the Lady of CR. Simple

[Mikkel]

I really don't see the issue. The books identify that after Tywin's death, Cersei became the Lady of CR. Her titles haven't been taken away since, and neither has she died, so she still is the Lady of CR. Simple

I agree. I think what throws people is Cersei's imprisonment and de-facto powerlessness - but yes, she retains her titles, and Lady of Casterly Rock is in there.

[James Arryn]

Lancel's oaths may or may not be prohibitive. The FM are such an unknown that we don't know how seriously their oaths are taken by the process. Is it for life? Can he change his mind? Is there an agreed punishment if he tries? We don't know, so at this point I would not rule him out.

[unitron]

But wouldn't Lancel then be Cersei's heir? Can a king inherit a vassal's prperties? I thought that was the reason for Robert to create House Baratheon of King's Landing. Robert is not in the line of succession for Storm's End: Renly is (Stannis is House Baratheon of Dragonstone).

Wouldn't Tommen be of this House Baratheon of King's Landing, then? He would only inherit if there was no succesor from the Lannister line (of chich there are plenty).

Originally, as eldest son, Robert was first in line to inherit Storm's End when their parents died.

If he subsequently, as Lord of Storm's End, not as King, passed ownership over to Renly and his heirs in perpetuity, then he's no longer Lord of Storm's End, Renly is, and Renly's heirs are heirs to Storm's End, and Tommen and his sister are not in line to inherit it any more.

Of course Renly having died without impregnating Margaery leaves either her as his widow to inherit Storm's End, or perhaps Stannis as the last surviving Baratheon brother. This may be a case where having the right kind of plumbing to be a Lord instead of a Lady trumps the widow's rights. Or maybe not.

I would submit, however, that they've all got bigger problems "at the moment" than who gets Storm's End and the lordship thereof.

[James Arryn]

Originally, as eldest son, Robert was first in line to inherit Storm's End when their parents died.

If he subsequently, as Lord of Storm's End, not as King, passed ownership over to Renly and his heirs in perpetuity, then he's no longer Lord of Storm's End, Renly is, and Renly's heirs are heirs to Storm's End, and Tommen and his sister are not in line to inherit it any more.

Of course Renly having died without impregnating Margaery leaves either her as his widow to inherit Storm's End, or perhaps Stannis as the last surviving Baratheon brother. This may be a case where having the right kind of plumbing to be a Lord instead of a Lady trumps the widow's rights. Or maybe not.

I would submit, however, that they've all got bigger problems "at the moment" than who gets Storm's End and the lordship thereof.

Yeah. Who gets Dragonstone?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

As both Renly and Stannis have been declared traitors, the crown is within rights to take their seats and grant them to whoever they want. As Tommen can claim them by blood through Robert, that is the most likely scenario to happen. The seats can then be divided up amongst his younger sons, later in life.

[Bob Sacamano]

I really don't see the issue. The books identify that after Tywin's death, Cersei became the Lady of CR. Her titles haven't been taken away since, and neither has she died, so she still is the Lady of CR. Simple

I 100 percent agree with you, which is why I am confused--If you look at the Lannister Family Tree in TWOIAF, it has Kevan's named listed as Lord. Maybe Yandel or the Citadel doesn't like to recognize Ladys??

[Mikkel]

Yeah. Who gets Dragonstone?

I assume you mean technically, because (as we all know) who actually gets it will depend on a boatload of variables that we just don't have the answer to at the current time.

But really, it depends on who you ask. The Lannisters would probably say Tommen, as Stannis is (in their eyes) an attainted traitor and rebel, and so his holdings default to the crown.

Stannis obviously believes it's his, but that's not worth much, as he and the majority of his forces are stuck in the North.

With things in turmoil as they are, I think the line "possession is nine-tenths of the law" will come into play. Depending on who sits the Throne, or if there even is a Throne to sit when the dust settles, all bets are off.

[James Arryn]

I assume you mean technically, because (as we all know) who actually gets it will depend on a boatload of variables that we just don't have the answer to at the current time.

But really, it depends on who you ask. The Lannisters would probably say Tommen, as Stannis is (in their eyes) an attainted traitor and rebel, and so his holdings default to the crown.

Stannis obviously believes it's his, but that's not worth much, as he and the majority of his forces are stuck in the North.

With things in turmoil as they are, I think the line "possession is nine-tenths of the law" will come into play. Depending on who sits the Throne, or if there even is a Throne to sit when the dust settles, all bets are off.

Not sure if it was your intent, but your thoughtful well-phrased response makes me feel juvenile for posing the faceatious question as a joke about 'what is important, Stannis-Renly old saw' way in the first place. I will now go sit in the corner, placing myself in time-out. :(