Tywin Lannister's respect for Stannis Baratheon

[Lee-Sensei]

Littlefinger, Varys and Pycelle. Barristan isn't on the small council and do you honestly think he and Renly would believe him anymore than Bob? Do recall the reason why Stannis had Jon Aryyn investigate the incest is because he knew people would listen to Jon who has nothing to gain or lose from revealing it. Also it's not like Renly didn't already know the danger the Lannister's presented as mentioned here several times already.

No logical person would reveal a dirty secret of an individual to that very person and expecting her to do nothing about it while believing her and her kin to be responsible for scheming the death of one of your best friends and mentor, whether you are an honorable person or not. It's totally Stannis' fault for not thinking Ned would do something so moronic.

Barristan is on the Small Council. Why do you think he wasn't?

Then he should have told Ned. He should have sent him a message ASAP. Instead he was sulking on Dragonstone about not being named the Hand.

[sifth]

Pretends? He does get away with them.

Sending Gregor was not meant to be subtle. He wanted Ned and the Riverlords to know that it was him, he wanted a reaction and he got it.

With the Red Wedding, while he has rewarded the participants he was not involved with breaking guest rights (the issue most people seem to get their knickers in a twist about).

We know that from Arryns death to Roberts eight months passed. Stannis had fled thinking the Lannisters were a danger yet did nothing to warn the king, no raven, no messenger. Nothing.

Many would consider that treason.

It's also treason to accuse the kings wife of a crime, especially when you have no proof.

[Ramsay Gimp]

The Dornish and the Vale. And the IB, but they hate everyone. :P

Evidence that the Vale hated Tywin, besides Bronze Yohn Royce?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Perhaps "hate" is too strong a word, since we never see them interact, but he certainly doesn't like Tywin. He hates Tywin's daughter and his son, has a disdain for House Lannister in general, and loves the Starks.

More hyperbole.

He hates the Targaryens, he's merely not fond of Jaime, the man he has appointed as his Warden of the East.

Provide clear evidence that he hates Jaime.

However, I'm 100% sure that he would absolutely hate Tywin if he executed his plan, which involved attacking the king's authority and kidnapping his best friend and Hand.

You claim that he hates Jaime. Now either you are talking shit or Robert is more forgiving than you think he is as he doesn't threaten to chop Jaimes head off for attacking and severely injuring his Hand and best friend. He actually jokes that he will make him Hand should Ned quit again.

[Ramsay Gimp]

You claim that he hates Jaime. Now either you are talking shit or Robert is more forgiving than you think he is as he doesn't threaten to chop Jaimes head off for attacking and severely injuring his Hand and best friend. He actually jokes that he will make him Hand should Ned quit again.

Exactly. Jaime nearly kills Ned and Robert shrugs it off, but we're supposed to believe Robert will tear down the Rock if Ned is captured by Tywin?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

It's also treason to accuse the kings wife of a crime, especially when you have no proof.

He has enough proof to call himself King, assassinate his brother and demand allegiance from other Lords.

If he has doubts about his allegation then he is committing treason against his nephews and niece.

[The Onion Kniggit]

The Lord Commander of the Kingguard is on the Small Council. Why do you think Barristan was left in Kings Landing while the Royal family went to Winterfell.

He didnt have to send a raven to Kings Landing, he could have sent a messenger like he sent Davos to secure the Manderlys to his cause.

He could have sent a raven to Renly, got Renly to look out for Robert. If he is certain that the Lannisters are trying to take over and are dangerous you dont do nothhing and sulk about it for 8 months and only perk up after Robert is dead.

Yea, something about what Barristan said on the TV Show confused me for a second. I stand corrected on that.

I've already answered the rest in my previous posts. As I said Varys was keeping track of Stannis and what tidbit we have of of what he was up to on Dragonstone involves him gathering swords. So he was hardly doing nothing.

Also Stannis already knew that Renly was doing something about the Lannisters. After all he mentions his knowledge about his scheme to wed Margaery to Bob at the parley.

[Lee-Sensei]

Evidence that the Vale hated Tywin, besides Bronze Yohn Royce?

"I'd had the same fear," Catelyn admitted. "I shall ask Maester Colemon to send a bird when we reach the Eyrie." She had other messages to send as well; the commands that Ned had given her for his bannermen, to ready the defenses of the north. "What is the mood in the Vale?" she asked.

"Angry," Brynden Tully admitted. "Lord Jon was much loved, and the insult was keenly felt when the king named Jaime Lannister to an office the Arryns had held for near three hundred years. Lysa has commanded us to call her son the True Warden of the East, but no one is fooled. Nor is your sister alone in wondering at the manner of the Hand's death. None dare say Jon was murdered, not openly, but suspicion casts a long shadow." He gave Catelyn a look, his mouth tight. "And there is the boy."

[Lee-Sensei]

It's also treason to accuse the kings wife of a crime, especially when you have no proof.

No it's not. Besides, that's exactly what he does after Roberts death.

[Ramsay Gimp]

"I'd had the same fear," Catelyn admitted. "I shall ask Maester Colemon to send a bird when we reach the Eyrie." She had other messages to send as well; the commands that Ned had given her for his bannermen, to ready the defenses of the north. "What is the mood in the Vale?" she asked.

"Angry," Brynden Tully admitted. "Lord Jon was much loved, and the insult was keenly felt when the king named Jaime Lannister to an office the Arryns had held for near three hundred years. Lysa has commanded us to call her son the True Warden of the East, but no one is fooled. Nor is your sister alone in wondering at the manner of the Hand's death. None dare say Jon was murdered, not openly, but suspicion casts a long shadow." He gave Catelyn a look, his mouth tight. "And there is the boy."

But how is Tywin to blame for any of that?

[Wise Fool]

Well everyone pretty much shot this down already, but I'll do it too.

For one, as was stated, Renly was not usurping Stannis, he was usurping Joffrey, whom he thought legitimate. Stannis, as far as he could see, had as little claim to the throne as he had. And considering that Stannis had been moping on his island fortress of doom without any contact with anyone for year, how was he supposed to realize that he'd act?.

For two, no one wants to follow Stannis. It is rather unlikely that Renly could had tempted Tyrells to go to war for mr. "I forgive but never forget".

For three, Baratheons would had won the whole conflict if it were not for that pesky little Stannis and his shadow baby.

So yeah, if anyone is to blame for Baratheons losing the war, It's Stannis.

From Renly's perspective neither of them have any claim to the throne. There are three royal children before either of them.

From Renly's perspective, Stannis has the claim over Renly even if Stannis is fourth in line. There's a line of succession, and Renly's trying to get around it by betraying his brother.

Ned supported Stannis; if Renly was really (as someone else earlier claimed) trying to help Ned, he would have helped Stannis.

As it happened, Renly refused to even consider Stannis as king before himself, and so brought the two brothers into disastrous conflict. Tyrion and even Cersei laughed their asses when they found out about it -- that's how incredibly stupid and pointless the decision to attack each other before attacking the Lannisters (the bigger threat, all agree) was. So I stand by my argument that Renly was not some power player.

Stannis claims that he doesn't want the Throne, so he should be the oneoffering Renly support. Stannis was the onewho needed help, not Renly.

He only claims that he doesn't want it, not that it isn't his by rights or that he has no intention of trying to gain it. Stannis is motivated by a sense of duty and justice rather than personal ambitions; that's all his comment about not 'wanting' the throne means.

Why would he help Stannis take the Throne? He's not trying to usurp Joffrey because he thinks he's a bastard, he's doing it because he wants control and with the Stormlords and Reachlords backing him, as well as he Northlords and Riverlords fighting the Lannisters has a realistic chance of getting control.

He judged the political situation brilliantly. Had Ned not been arrested, or Tyrion returned before the battle of Golden Tooth I doubt he would have acted.

Supporting Stannis would be stupid for Renly, for one he is not going to have the same level of support so there is less likelihood that Stannis would win or maintain control. The same perks that Renly enjoyed under Roberts rule would not happen under Stannis as King, plus they dont like each other. Stannis would favour men he does like/respect, Renlys influence would diminish.

Renly would help Stannis take the throne out of a sense of duty, family loyalty, justice, etc. Basically the things that Renly does not have.

Most of the lords supporting Renly were happy enough to support Stannis, once Renly was gone. I have no problem that working together - Stannis as the titular head and stable core of justice and strategy, and Renly as the charismatic PR guy - they could have easily worked together, if they could have gotten along sufficiently to do so.

I don't know why everyone thinks Renly is some sort of master player. He was inexperienced, naive, wasteful, impulsive, a poor planner, and willing to betray his own house and family just to get ahead. Not a guy anyone should want having monarchical power.

[Lee-Sensei]

But how is Tywin to blame for any of that?

I never said he was. I just said the Lannisters are hated there too.

[Lee-Sensei]

He only claims that he doesn't want it, not that it isn't his by rights or that he has no intention of trying to gain it. Stannis is motivated by a sense of duty and justice rather than personal ambitions; that's all his comment about not 'wanting' the throne means.

That's the company line, but I don't buy it. I think he wants the power. I think he wants to be King.

[Nihlus]

More hyperbole.

He hates the Targaryens, he's merely not fond of Jaime, the man he has appointed as his Warden of the East.

Provide clear evidence that he hates Jaime.

You claim that he hates Jaime. Now either you are talking shit or Robert is more forgiving than you think he is as he doesn't threaten to chop Jaimes head off for attacking and severely injuring his Hand and best friend. He actually jokes that he will make him Hand should Ned quit again.

He knocks him down and laughs at him. He only makes him Warden, an essentially meaningless position, because of a bit of bitching.

Which is, again, not remotely the same thing as what Tywin was planning to do. Tywin invaded another kingdom and was going to launch a planned attack on the king's men, under the king's banner, and kidnap the Hand, acting under the king's authority. Now Robert must either say that Ned wasn't actually working under his authority, and execute him for overstepping his boundaries, or he must punish Tywin for what are clearly several acts of treason and war. Taking the latter course of action would see pretty much the entire rest of the continent joining with him to smash Tywin's face in.

Now, do you actually have any rebuttal to my points, or are you going to continue to ignore them while nitpicking wording?

Exactly. Jaime nearly kills Ned and Robert shrugs it off, but we're supposed to believe Robert will tear down the Rock if Ned is captured by Tywin?

The situations aren't remotely comparable. One is a in-the-moment thing that escalated into a street brawl that left a few men dead (or could be passed off as such), and was followed by Jaime fleeing the city. The other was a clearly premeditated attack by the Lord of the West on the authority of the king, as well as an invasion of another kingdom, the calling of banners for several regions, and the kidnapping of the Hand. He can't brush this off. He has to take a side, because one of either Ned or Tywin just committed high treason. Which one do you think he's going to side with?

Again, I'm amazed that people actually think Tywin can fully get away with all of this. That Robert would just ignore such a blatant act of rebellion. That Robert would take his side when he just wiped his ass with Robert's authority and invaded another kingdom on top of that. There's no way his plot to kidnap Ned could possibly be explained away in way other than "fuck you Robert, you ain't shit, I do what I want". It's not a squabble between houses anymore; Ned would be under the king's banner, not the banner of the North. Tywin and several others assembling massive hosts at this time (Tywin invaded with 35,000 men mere days after Bobby B's death) also would not help matters for the "do nothing" part of Robert's personality.

[Poète Lauréat]

More like one psychopath respecting another.

What is wrong with this? Being a psychopath is not always negative. Are you one of those people who thinks a ''psychopath'' means a serial killer or someone evil? I would be surprised if Stannis wasn't a psychopath with all the shit he's been through. Losing his Mother and Father, Starving himself to save Storms End. His Brothers never respecting him. His younger Brother Usurping his rightful throne. I mean you could go on for days.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

He knocks him down and laughs at him. He only makes him Warden, an essentially meaningless position, because of a bit of bitching.

That is not evidence that he hates him. I've laughed at people falling down, it does not mean I hate them.

If Robert thought the Warden of the East was a meaningless position he would have let Robin Arryn keep the title.

Here is exactly what Robert thinks of the position:

"For the last time, I will not name the Arryn boy Warden. I know the boy is your nephew, but with Targaryens climbing in bed with Dothraki, I would be mad to rest one quarter of the realm on the shoulders of a sickly child."

Hardly unimportant.

This is why no one can take your arguments seriously, you are just spouting random information that has little relevance to what happens in the books.

[Lee-Sensei]

That is not evidence that he hates him. I've laughed at people falling down, it does not mean I hate them.

If Robert thought the Warden of the East was a meaningless position he would have let Robin Arryn keep the title.

Here is exactly what Robert thinks of the position:

Hardly unimportant.

This is why no one can take your arguments seriously, you are just spouting random information that has little relevance to what happens in the books.

Robert doesn't like Jaime. I don't know why people think he does. He was probaly nagged into making Jaime Warden of the East.

Robert doesn't just laugh at Jaime some times. He does it all the time. He gets a big kick out of his humiliation.

“Tyrion always backed me in the lists,” Jaime said, “but that day Ser Loras unhorsed me. A mischance, I took the boy too lightly, but no matter. Whatever my brother wagered, he lost… but that dagger did change hands, I recall it now. Robert showed it to me that night at the feast. His Grace loved to salt my wounds, especially when drunk. And when was he not drunk?”

I like the Lannisters as characters, but they aren't popular in Universe.

[Wise Fool]

That's the company line, but I don't buy it. I think he wants the power. I think he wants to be King.

If Stannis knew that Joff was not an abomination born of incest, do you think he still would have tried to take the throne?

I don't think it's a company line; I think from what we see of Stannis he really does pursue justice and duty, even if it's not tactically, socially or even morally sound. It's the tooth-grinding, you see. That's what a man does when he feels he's compelled to do some difficult thing, take the hard way, because it's right.

[sifth]

He has enough proof to call himself King, assassinate his brother and demand allegiance from other Lords.

If he has doubts about his allegation then he is committing treason against his nephews and niece.

Alright, you try to convince Robert that his kids are bastards. The guys drunk half the time and as we are told wasn't in the best of relationships with Stannis. I mean Ned would have at least stood a chance, but Stannis.........let's just say negotiation isn't exactly one of the mans strong points.

Yea I'm sure Robert would run right out of Kings Landing the second Stannis sent him that letter. More likely someone like Pycelle would intercept it and it would never reach the king.

[Boarsbane]

He knocks him down and laughs at him. He only makes him Warden, an essentially meaningless position, because of a bit of bitching.

Which is, again, not remotely the same thing as what Tywin was planning to do. Tywin invaded another kingdom and was going to launch a planned attack on the king's men, under the king's banner, and kidnap the Hand, acting under the king's authority. Now Robert must either say that Ned wasn't actually working under his authority, and execute him for overstepping his boundaries, or he must punish Tywin for what are clearly several acts of treason and war. Taking the latter course of action would see pretty much the entire rest of the continent joining with him to smash Tywin's face in.

Now, do you actually have any rebuttal to my points, or are you going to continue to ignore them while nitpicking wording?

The situations aren't remotely comparable. One is a in-the-moment thing that escalated into a street brawl that left a few men dead (or could be passed off as such), and was followed by Jaime fleeing the city. The other was a clearly premeditated attack by the Lord of the West on the authority of the king, as well as an invasion of another kingdom, the calling of banners for several regions, and the kidnapping of the Hand. He can't brush this off. He has to take a side, because one of either Ned or Tywin just committed high treason. Which one do you think he's going to side with?

Again, I'm amazed that people actually think Tywin can fully get away with all of this. That Robert would just ignore such a blatant act of rebellion. That Robert would take his side when he just wiped his ass with Robert's authority and invaded another kingdom on top of that. There's no way his plot to kidnap Ned could possibly be explained away in way other than "fuck you Robert, you ain't shit, I do what I want". It's not a squabble between houses anymore; Ned would be under the king's banner, not the banner of the North. Tywin and several others assembling massive hosts at this time (Tywin invaded with 35,000 men mere days after Bobby B's death) also would not help matters for the "do nothing" part of Robert's personality.

You may think it is meaningless but Robert clearly doesn't.

Why do you think you can decide what Robert must do? He's the king after all, he's always done what he wants. High treason is what he says it is. He is lazy and has a history of not picking sides in the Lannister Stark feud, add to that he is worried about a Targaryen invasion I'm willing to bet he will try to avoid a civil war between 3 great houses. I'm basing what I think on what the man has done in the actual novels we are speculating about.