Tywin Lannister's respect for Stannis Baratheon

[thelittledragonthatcould]

That is just ridiculous. Steffon's second son had no legal claim and right to Storms Ends? Please lets be serious for a moment.

So?

It was Roberts to do as he pleased. He chose to give it to Renly. The King decides what is legal and in this he gave it to Renly.

[James Arryn]

He capitalized on Renlys popularity. He had someone in his arsenal that was capable of assassinating his younger brother and stealing his men, men who Stannis had no real right to.

Stannis waited till after both Renly and Robb declared themselves Kings. He stalled, it is debatable that he would have acted at all had others not risen first. Whether its Ned or Jon Arryn, or Renly and Robb, Stannis is not going to put himself out there and act first or alone.

And he is not even a man of his word. He promises Renly time to make a decision and strikes at night instead of in the morning, to make sure that it is not a fair fight between Renlys supporters and his own.

I dont doubt that Stannis genuinely thinks of himself as a righteous man, that is why he is such an enjoyable character. That he has deluded himself into thinking he is doing this for the 'greater good' is some of the darkest comedy of the series.

Agreed. Additionally there's the element of taking Stannis' words at face value re: power when he has shown himself to be capable of extreme deception and disingeniousness in pursuit of power. The whole religious charade is as cynical and manipulative any act as any in the books, and he openly admits he does it because it gives him more power, not because he's in any way sincere in his faith. But he's quite happy to take advantage of people who are.

Just because he's socially awkward doesn't mean he's sincere.

[Red Tiger]

So?

It was Roberts to do as he pleased. He chose to give it to Renly. The King decides what is legal and in this he gave it to Renly.

I think what we have here is a Dance of Dragons situation. One king decides 'fuck tradition', then another king comes up and decides 'tradition is laaaaaaaaaw'.

[James Arryn]

That is just ridiculous. Steffon's second son had no legal claim and right to Storms Ends? Please lets be serious for a moment.

Just to be clear, do you believe in a narrow, absolute linear form of succession, or an organic inclusive one?

[Red Tiger]

Agreed. Additionally there's the element of taking Stannis' words at face value re: power when he has shown himself to be capable of extreme deception and disingeniousness in pursuit of power. The whole religious charade is as cynical and manipulative any act as any in the books, and he openly admits he does it because it gives him more power, not because he's in any way sincere in his faith. But he's quite happy to take advantage of people who are.

Just because he's socially awkward doesn't mean he's sincere.

I have to ask though, does Stannis really consider himself righteous, or just a "Complete my mission by any means necessary"-guy? I always got the feeling he cared more about the end-result rather than what the methods are.

[James Arryn]

I think what we have here is a Dance of Dragons situation. One king decides 'fuck tradition', then another king comes up and decides 'tradition is laaaaaaaaaw'.

Who was saying 'fuck tradition?'

Do you mean Robert taking the throne?

(Sincere question. I wonder if you are kinda inventing a tradition of who kings do/don't pass on their original House/seat to when becoming King, for which there isn't only a lack of tradition, but in fact a complete lack of precedent. If you're trying to loosely apply other kinds of inheritance, Robert's being non-traditional doesn't cost Stannis, but Joff and Tommen. There's simply no tradition that supports Stannis being aggrieved.)

[Nihlus]

You may think it is meaningless but Robert clearly doesn't.

Why do you think you can decide what Robert must do? He's the king after all, he's always done what he wants. High treason is what he says it is. He is lazy and has a history of not picking sides in the Lannister Stark feud, add to that he is worried about a Targaryen invasion I'm willing to bet he will try to avoid a civil war between 3 great houses. I'm basing what I think on what the man has done in the actual novels we are speculating about.

If he didn't think it was meaningless, why would he hand the position to someone with no real feats of command when there are infinitely better candidates? Why would he cite the Dothraki invasion as a reason for this when anyone with two brain cells to rub together can tell what a sheer logistic impossibility any invasion is, and he's so obviously just using that as an excuse to justify his Targ murder boner?

I don't, the realm does. Nothing the Lannister have done compare to what they're doing now. If Tywin's plan "succeeds", he would have directly attacked the king's authority, by killing men under his banner, while at the same time invading another kingdom and massing a massive host on the border. There's no way around it, no way to explain it away. Tywin would have blatantly attacked the king himself. Either that, or his Hand seriously overstepped his authority and didn't actually represent the king, in which case he must be punished for treason instead of Tywin. And when war is already brewing due to Tywin's actions, with three of the kingdoms gathering hosts and the rest of the continent all too happy to gang up on him, who do you think Robert is going to side with? He has no reason to worry about the Targs, either. The Dothraki are a complete joke, and can't even get to Westeros. Tywin, on the other hand, is a very immediate threat, in control of the continent's richest region, and he just launched several attacks on the Riverlands and the king himself. He has shown that he thinks himself above the king.

Tywin was completely delusional to think he could get away with directly attacking the king. It's one of the many examples of Tywin's arrogance, poor impulse control, and lack of recognition for the boundaries of his own power, all traits he passed down to his children. He was convinced that he could do literally anything and get away with it, whether it be provoking the Riverlands and the North, making an enemy out of Dorne, making an enemy out of his kid, or massacring King's Landing. Well, look at him now. Look at his house. Even with dozens of plot gifts preventing their immediate destruction, House Lannister is still heavily damaged and on the way out.

That is not evidence that he hates him. I've laughed at people falling down, it does not mean I hate them.

If Robert thought the Warden of the East was a meaningless position he would have let Robin Arryn keep the title.

Here is exactly what Robert thinks of the position:

Hardly unimportant.

This is why no one can take your arguments seriously, you are just spouting random information that has little relevance to what happens in the books.

You don't consistently mock and laugh at someone you don't dislike.

Robert's just BSing here, he and Ned both know a Dothraki invasion is essentially impossible. He just doesn't want to get nagged, so gives the meaningless position to Jaime.

Nice to see that you're resorting to the standard Tywin fan tactics: don't respond to the actual argument, just nitpick one bit of wording, insult the opposition without actually refuting anything, and declare victory.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

So?

It was Roberts to do as he pleased. He chose to give it to Renly. The King decides what is legal and in this he gave it to Renly.

You said that he had no legal claim. Which is absolutely wrong. He was Steffon's son and he had legal right to Storm's end.

Just to be clear, do you believe in a narrow, absolute linear form of succession, or an organic inclusive one?

Neither.

I think what we have here is a Dance of Dragons situation. One king decides 'fuck tradition', then another king comes up and decides 'tradition is laaaaaaaaaw'.

Also true.

[James Arryn]

I have to ask though, does Stannis really consider himself righteous, or just a "Complete my mission by any means necessary"-guy? I always got the feeling he cared more about the end-result rather than what the methods are.

I am not concerned with Stannis' sincerity in itself. Most power players are end:means types, and most believe they are the ones to do the right thing with the power. There's nothing exceptional in Stannis being that way; what's exceptional is the fans who insist on taking him at face value in spite of his being that way, or buying into the idea that he's exceptional with regards to his noble aspirations, and that those make anything he does retroactively right, and therefore anyone he opposes retroactively wrong.

[James Arryn]

Neither.

Why coy? Okay, let's play: do younger brothers possess a claim, or is it exclusive to the eldest brother?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Why coy? Okay, let's play: do younger brothers possess a claim, or is it exclusive to the eldest brother?

I can imagine where this is going and since I had a very bad day I don't what to get to that discussion again.

[James Arryn]

I can imagine where this is going and since I had a very bad day I don't what to get to that discussion again.

Ok. Sorry about your day.

(Edit: that said, it's kind of an obvious place for this to go, no?)

[thelittledragonthatcould]

You don't consistently mock and laugh at someone you don't dislike.

I never claimed that he liked Jaime.

You claimed that he hated him and all Lannisters. This is just hyperbole, he hates the Targs. There is a huge difference between disliking and hatred.

Robert's just BSing here, he and Ned both know a Dothraki invasion is essentially impossible. He just doesn't want to get nagged, so gives the meaningless position to Jaime.

lol

There is evidence that I have provided from the book that shows that Robert takes the threat very seriously. Furthermore I could add him then ordering Dany to be assassinated at great expense to further show his evidence that he consides them a real threat.

Provide evidence that Robert is BSing. Unless you yourself are BSing.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Ok. Sorry about your day.

(Edit: that said, it's kind of an obvious place for this to go, no?)

Thank you! But no it's not the same. There is a very important detail that makes the two situations completely different.

[James Arryn]

Thank you! But no it's not the same. There is a very important detail that makes the two situations completely different.

You're welcome, and I was more than a little sure there would be. :)

[Bronn Urgandy]

Another HUGE factor in Stannis' dereliction of duty/Robert that no one ever mentions: he thought they knew that he knew.

We have seen how quickly Cersei acts when someone does know, and that seems far and away the most likely course of action if the secret is exposed. And yet Stannis not only abandons Robert whike leaving him in the dark, he presumably leaves the Lannister's thinking they are one Raven/letter/messenger away from exposure and destruction.

And yet he does nothing.

He thinks they know Jon Arryn knows. He is still somewhat of an enigma with regards to all that.

And I always, always fall back on that SSM that says "he didn't realise Robert was in danger because they didn't like each other" or words to that effect with regards to this because a) its apparently what the author says and b) to me it reads ilike exactly what it is, that Stannis is naturally an inconsiderate, selfish bastard, its not intentionally malicious, it just is what he is, what makes him interesting is when he's trying not to be like that. So I wouldn't call it an excuse, and it is plot stupidity, but its not plot stupidity that is out of line with the guy we have presented to us. Just want to re-iterate that even the wonderfully noble Ned Stark was happy to leave Robert in that lions den as well. Human beings have ideals that they themselves often fall short of.

[Red Tiger]

Who was saying 'fuck tradition?'

Do you mean Robert taking the throne?

(Sincere question. I wonder if you are kinda inventing a tradition of who kings do/don't pass on their original House/seat to when becoming King, for which there isn't only a lack of tradition, but in fact a complete lack of precedent. If you're trying to loosely apply other kinds of inheritance, Robert's being non-traditional doesn't cost Stannis, but Joff and Tommen. There's simply no tradition that supports Stannis being aggrieved.)

Im talking about what Dragonthatcould said about Renly having the right to the Stormlands because Robert made him the lord of Storm's end (which seems like 'fuck tradition' to me), rather than Stannis being the Stormland's rightful lord due to tradition.

If Joff, Tommen and such are illegitimate, then it seems to me that Stanning, being the eldest legitimate Baratheon, would due to tradition be the righful ruler of the Stormlands.

[Tyrell_like_Squirrel]

Renly most likely would have won the War of 5 Kings if it weren't for dark magic, so how is he a "lightweight" or "idiot"?

Renly lost because he spent months dithering instead of making a decisive grab for the throne. He understood symbols of power and how to appeal to people far more then Stannis, but he doesn't seem to have had any clear and distinct plans for ruling. It wasn't just dark magic, and I fail to see any evidence that he would have been able to hold on to his power once he gained it, without being indebted to the reach. That's basically what Robert did with the Lannisters, and most would agree that Robert was a pretty ineffective King. I suggest you check out Steven Atwell's analysis of the Baratheon brothers at Tower of the Hand, he's much better at laying out Renly's incompetence then I am.

[Red Tiger]

Renly lost because he spent months dithering instead of making a decisive grab for the throne. He understood symbols of power and how to appeal to people far more then Stannis, but he doesn't seem to have had any clear and distinct plans for ruling. It wasn't just dark magic, and I fail to see any evidence that he would have been able to hold on to his power once he gained it, without being indebted to the reach. That's basically what Robert did with the Lannisters, and most would agree that Robert was a pretty ineffective King. I suggest you check out Steven Atwell's analysis of the Baratheon brothers at Tower of the Hand, he's much better at laying out Renly's incompetence then I am.

I read that article, he also pointed out how a younger brother killing an older brother would forever fuck up the idea of the line of succession.

[Humble Maester]

Renly lost because he spent months dithering instead of making a decisive grab for the throne. He understood symbols of power and how to appeal to people far more then Stannis, but he doesn't seem to have had any clear and distinct plans for ruling. It wasn't just dark magic, and I fail to see any evidence that he would have been able to hold on to his power once he gained it, without being indebted to the reach. That's basically what Robert did with the Lannisters, and most would agree that Robert was a pretty ineffective King. I suggest you check out Steven Atwell's analysis of the Baratheon brothers at Tower of the Hand, he's much better at laying out Renly's incompetence then I am.

That was the winning strategy all along, until he got murdered by his brother.

Renly rebelled because he had to get rid of Lannister influence, not sure what his plans would had been after that. Prolly ruling? Anything is better than Cersei.