Heresy 155

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Or not, depends if she was really a hostage. It's quite strange they had only a few men within their team. Even assuming everybody else was preoccupied with something, it was enough for Ned to take his own guards and there would be 20, instead of 7. Much better chances against KG. Well, take as many men as you like, the war is over.

My thoughts on this would be they are on some other type of mission. Most likely there was a need for some secrecy and therefore they couldn't afford big company. But I'm not sure what kind of secrets they were trying to find, only have some thoughts.

I see your logic here. Only one thing remains unclear. What business did Ned & Co. have at ToJ if Lyanna was not there?

The kingsguard were there. Since they would not bend the knee, killing was his business, and business was good!

[Shagwell Snow]

Yeah I agree there's certainly more to the others than meets the eye and certainly a link with the Starks.For me being known as the kings of winter is very telling plus many other clues and references.The one that I find the most telling is in the Davos chapter in adwd when Davos is in manderly's dungeon and the guard tells him about a stark king nicknamed '' ice eyes'' who decends on the wolfsden during a terrible winter to reclaim it.

Even if they are a forgotten allie of the Starks is doesn't, for me at least,make 'em any less evil.Take the Dothraki for instance,we know there culture and motivation.hell I like irri n rakaro but I believe they're agenda is evil. You wouldn't want to bump into a khallasar out on the plains.same with the ironborn,I like the reader and asha but I would want to be caught in a fishing boat with a kracken sail coming over the horizon.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Hello everyone,been lurking for a year now and thought I may aswel dip in.can I just say that this is by far the most knowledgeable thread on the entire site and it's been very entertaining and informative for me.Black crow,wolfmade,snowfyre plus countless Others I take my hat of to you all.I've done 3 re-reads and am no way near as schooled on asoiaf as you lot.

However the general concensus amongst heretics is that there isn't to be a great showdown with the Others based on the belief that grrm wants to subvert the fantasy stereotype.one could argue that that stereotype is the Lord of the rings,but even in lotr the battle at the Black Gate is only a faint to allow Frodo the chance to destroy the ring.

So a great climatic battle to vanquish the evil enemy isn't really playing to type,at least not in contrast to the best known fantasy epic before asoiaf.

Thoughts if any ha?

So the rest of us are Others? Mysterious and dangerous to the status quo. :D

I believe there will be a battle at the Wall. If you build a wall someone's bound to knock it down. I don't think battles will be the end of it though. As discussed previously, there is no information of the how the Long Night was beaten back. And sure enough it is happening again. So I don't think the Battle for Dawn was the true victory. I think it was a final hurrah at the retreating winter and the beings that were using its power.

.

.

Glimmering and everything another skull

You said it was dangerous

Found out the place where you're going

Follow me down the path, I take your hopes

I promise you this

A dying cold world but gold, shimmering gold

Come momma now tell me the story

Only laughing about our gilded wasteland

Devoured torn into pieces, come now we shine

Small things ever calling out your name

You hear some other time unchained alive

A world undefined, all to be free. when you raise an open hand

This place without a wall, the words just grow

(Jeremy Enigk)

[Shagwell Snow]

You certainly are!(in the politist possible way of course)

Cool poem,has grrm cited this as any kind of inspiration?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

You certainly are!(in the politist possible way of course)

Cool poem,has grrm cited this as any kind of inspiration?

:cheers:

No, the poem is a song and the album was released in 1998. Something brought that to mind while typing out my post so I threw it in there.

[Matthew.]

Well this is basically what I've been suggesting that it was at once a warning and an invitation not to Lyanna personally but to House Stark

Why deliver a warning in a manner that's going to humiliate the one House that Rhaegar can be sure is on his side, should he convene a council to remove his father? Even if Elia is "in on it," being perceived as having been disrespected is effectively the same thing, and I can't imagine that would sit well with the Martells.

Furthermore, far from killing a Stark/Baratheon rebellion before it takes root, this seems like the exact sort of act that would openly provoke them into action. In particular, Robert is sure to take offense, and only be more resentful of the throne.

Rather than making himself the valid, sane alternative to Aerys in the eyes of the lords, Rhaegar disrespected the Martells, Starks, and Baratheons (and, by proxy, lowered his stock with the Arryns and Tullys), all while his paranoid father is in attendance. I'm still struggling to see the long-term scenario where this is a move that would have paid off politically for Rhaegar.

[PrettyPig]

This goes with my (admittedly crackpot) theory that Lyanna was already dead. She was raped and died, Brandon found out and we know the rest. This would explain how she could be avenged on the Trident, and why Robert didn't ride to Dorne with Ned, and why Brandon wanted Rhaegar to die rather than asking to send Lya out. And also why only Ned and Howland Reed were present when she died- the three of them had been hanging out at Harrenhal, and stayed in the area after the tourney.

Lya being dead early in the game would certainly make sense of the issues listed, but then we run into the jon Snow conundrum - either he isn't Lyanna's son after all, or he is much older than we think. I'm OK with this to an extent as I believe Jon is the elder of he and Robb anyway, but getting into a year or so older creates bigger conflicts with other parts of the story that I'm not sure could be reconciled easily. I won't rule it out though, because her dying before everything went to hell in a handbasket answers a lot of questions even if it creates more.

Whatever the circumstances surrounding Lyanna’s disappearance, we can surmise three things:

1) It was egregious enough to cause Brandon to shift gears and ride immediately to the situation;

2) something made Brandon definitively think the culprit was Rhaegar;

3) something made Brandon definitively think that he would find Rhaegar in King’s Landing.

Now, Lyanna being kidnapped at swordpoint by the crown prince in front of witnesses would certainly do the trick. A version of this seems to be what Dany has been led to believe by Viserys.

I have multiple problems with this, however. First, as you mention, we have the textual absence of concern for Lyanna’s welfare in events prior to the start of RR, and the fact that the catalyst for rebellion wasn’t her abduction but the call for the heads of Jon Arryn’s wards. It’s interesting that when it comes to the disappearance of Winterfell’s daughter and the execution of the Stark lord and his heir, Jon Arryn is like, herm, well, let’s not be hasty here, but when the call comes for Bob and Ned to pay the piper then suddenly it’s ZOMG CALL THE BANNERS, SHIT JUST GOT REAL. I’ll return to this in a moment.

Next, even if this scenario was the beta of current-day Operation CatNap and Rhaegar ‘arrested’ Lyanna at the Inn of the Crossroads, my questions are: 1) what gave witnesses the idea that this was indeed Rhaegar Targaryen, and 2) what totally believable thing did he do that was enough to convince Brandon Stark hundreds of miles way that he was headed back to KL? I’ve pondered on whether or not Rhaegar Targaryen, Kidnapper is one and the same as Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone. Given that the real Rhaegar seemed to be off on some Riverlands visionquest with the Magnificent Seven, was he traveling as “the crown prince” with his banners and black armor and full regalia, or was all his cool Targ gear left behind when he went on walkabout, perhaps at a place where someone else might have access to it…..? Think about “The Hound” terrorizing the Riverlands after Arya leaves Sandor to rot from gangrene.

Lastly, we’ve learned that Viserys was something of a ‘sheltered’ child, to put it nicely, who was protected from the worst of Aerys’ tendencies by Rhaella. I’m sure that Viserys was spoonfed many sugary tales of bravery and benevolence and sheer Targaryen awesome so it shouldn’t be surprising that he will have the version of the Rhaegar/Lyanna story that paints his brother in the most positive light, and the version that in reality is the furthest from the truth. I mean, he was seven – in my mind I’m seeing the show scene of Cersei cuddling Tommen in the throne room during the Battle of the Blackwater telling him how great and strong are we Lannisters as she’s taking the cap off the bottle of poison; I can envision Rhaella doing something similar when the excrement hit the air conditioning. “Your brother loved his northern girl, whats-her-name, so gallant and romantic of him to carry her off like that”. Meaning, whatever really happened it was probably neither gallant nor romantic, but this is the stock-standard yarn you would spin for a spoiled, sheltered, and already loony 7yo. He gets the SweetRobin treatment so of course grows up to believe Rhaegar is a hero. (Incidentally, we have Ser Barristan the Befuddled, one of the two members of Aerys’ KG who wasn’t firmly in Rhaegar’s Circle of Trust and who seems to be out of the loop on everything from Harrenhal onward, saying exactly the same thing as Viserys which imo is a good indicator that this story is complete crap.)

Back to Jon Arryn – who in my opinion is one of the most understated power players of this series. I think it’s very possible that Jon was furthering a scheme for a Lannister power grab set forth by Tywin. Some of it may have been unintentional, but in any event Jon and Tywin - with help of Varys - were playing the crown and the high lords off each other, with Rhaegar caught in the middle. Rickard and Brandon may have been necessary casualties of Jon's ambition, and Rhaegar was utterly betrayed by Tywin. The Targaryen dynasty loses the game of thrones, whereas Jon Arryn gained a very powerful position and Tywin of course married into the IT. These two kept an uneasy gentleman’s agreement until the time became ripe for Varys to put that to the torch.

On a semi-related note, has anyone else speculated on whether or not Jon’s “the seed is strong” statement is not in fact about Lannister twincest but about continuation of the Targaryen line through offspring besides Viserys and Dany?

[Black Crow]

Yes - this does seem to be the dilemma, doesn't it? The song of the winter rose is... well, a song. And Rhaegar was both a singer and a well-read student who left "maesters... awed by his wits" from a young age. So it's easy enough to believe he was familiar with the story. But how do we reconcile this image of an intelligent, learned Rhaegar, also described as "able... determined, deliberate, dutiful, [and] single-minded," with the suggestion that he just had no idea how insulting the presentation of a blue rose crown would be to House Stark?

Looks to me like we have to choose one of two options:

1. Rhaegar knew the crown would be poorly received, and either intended the insult or didn't care; or

Rhaegar didn't realize he was insulting the Starks, and just wasn't as smart or capable as we've been led to believe

Take your pick.

My late mother was born and brought up in what's called Old Aberdeen, a beautiful 18th century enclave in the modern city in which pretty well everything was owned by the University. Consequently most of the houses were tenanted by college staff and servants [its a very old university] and consequently she and those about her were on pretty familiar terms with some of the greatest scholars of the day. Many of them were literally brilliant but yet at one and the same time a significant number of them if not certifiably mad were not fit to be let out on their own and whilst possessed of great learning, wit and general erudition were totally devoid of ordinary common sense.

I have no problem at all with Rhaegar being as brilliant as those around him say, but that's not to prevent him at one and the same time being a fool.

[Black Crow]

I know this has been alluded to and probably discussed, but how big of a hand could the Lannisters have had?

Lyanna dead, all of Aerys's heirs dead or accounted for, Robert is King and freed up to marry Cersei, the Lannisters back in the royal fold more than ever before, Tywin wanted his daughter to be a Queen.

They were the big winners in the events of RR, even more so than Robert himself.

It still doesn't tie in the events at Harrenhal and the ToJ, however.

But I do keep in mind the 1993 letter, and the central theme being a Lannister/Stark rivalry.

Exactly so which is why I raised this very possibility including the corresponding possibility that Elia may have been poisoned - after all how better to disguise that than by using an acknowledged frailty as cover.

[Black Crow]

We know Rhaegar pissed off Robert and Brandon from the world books. Interestingly enough, we haven't been given any info that his actions pissed off the Martells. If Dany's vision in THOTU is accurate, there appears to be no acrimony between Elia and Rhaegar shortly after the tourney. Nor does Oberyn ever mention this slight in his list of grievances. And we know Oberyn was at the tourney but the Worldbook is silent as to his reaction to his sister's snub, while it details Robert and Brandon's reaction to it.

Add into this the fact Lyanna appears to have died in Dorne and that Rhaegar was fetched from there its difficult to avoid a strong suspicion that the abduction was political and that Oberyn Martell was in on it.

[Black Crow]

Why deliver a warning in a manner that's going to humiliate the one House that Rhaegar can be sure is on his side, should he convene a council to remove his father? Even if Elia is "in on it," being perceived as having been disrespected is effectively the same thing, and I can't imagine that would sit well with the Martells.

Furthermore, far from killing a Stark/Baratheon rebellion before it takes root, this seems like the exact sort of act that would openly provoke them into action. In particular, Robert is sure to take offense, and only be more resentful of the throne.

Rather than making himself the valid, sane alternative to Aerys in the eyes of the lords, Rhaegar disrespected the Martells, Starks, and Baratheons (and, by proxy, lowered his stock with the Arryns and Tullys), all while his paranoid father is in attendance. I'm still struggling to see the long-term scenario where this is a move that would have paid off politically for Rhaegar.

Because as I said its both a warning and an invitation: "I know what you bastards are up to. Join with me or its face down in the pasta."

[Voice]

I don't understand the why so many are hesitant to believe that Rhaegar was following prophecy as opposed to politics. The one constant with Rhaegar is that he seemed determined to bring about the Prince that Was Promised prophecy. He first believed it was him, then after a comet passed over King's Landing he believed it to be his son. Something he read made him decide he had to be a warrior. He had a psychic connection to Summerhall.

There is nothing about his actions at the Harrenhal tourney that is consistent with a politial ploy to gain an alliance with the Starks. So as Snowfyre said either he was incredibly tone deaf when it came to forming political alliances, or his actions at Harrenhal indicated that he was setting matters in motion that were more important to him than trying to form a political alliance.

ETA: I think our basic problem is we haven't been told what TPTWP prophecy is. Until we know the prophecy the purpose behind his actions will continue to confound us.

Actually I totally agree. Making a human error in/while trying to bring together Ice and Fire for the purpose of his prophetic ambitions makes sense.

Regardless of his motives, the laurel did not convey the message he hoped it would. A misunderstanding here makes more sense than a threat. He wanted the North's support, and maybe the North's daughter.

I'm not dismissing the prophecy. Rather, if we assume he was driven by it, and making plans for his great council, alienating the Starks seems like the last thing he'd want to do.

[wolfmaid7]

On the other hand, correct me if I'm wrong, you're saying that they were coaxed into seizing the kingdom instead of focusing on saving Lyanna which is what Ned and Robert actually cared about? In which case, this I can readily see.

We have 3 great lords in Tywin, Mace, and Quellon who all effectively sat out the war. Tywin and Quellon waited into the Targaryens had clearly lost before rousing themselves and supporting Robert, and Mace decided to sit all of his power outside of Robert's castle when Robert wasn't even there. So three major lords could have decided to support the Targaryens, but effectively chose not to do so, thus helping to throw the odds in the rebels favour.

Then we have Arryn who obviously started the rebellion by being the first to rebel. Once he'd rebelled, Robert and Ned would be caught up in fighting a war, instead of finding a girl. We see Ned smuggled back to his lands through back ways that ensured no one knew, but Robert somehow ended up on the front lines fighting battles in the Vale? That's always struck me as rather odd. Yes parts of the Vale didn't rise with Jon, but why was Robert on the front lines fighting battles that were Jon's to fight? Robert should have been doing what Ned did and smuggling himself back to Storm's End. Yet he ended up storming cities in the Vale and slaying men in legendary duels. And Robert just happened to be the one with the Targaryen blood, and Robert being on the front lines just happened to inspire people to think that he should be king (judging by Godric's response to hearing about Robert storming Gulltown). So we have Ned with no Targaryen blood being smuggled away, and Robert with Targaryen blood becoming a legend.

Then Hoster Tully decided that he'd throw in with the rebels based off nothing more than a promise that Ned would wed his daughter. He actually started fighting the royalists before Ned and Cat ever married. And wouldn't you know it, he ended up marrying off both of his daughters, even the one who wasn't a virgin, to 2 of the greatest lords in the realm.

And finally, we have Dorne who didn't lift a finger until Aerys started using Elia and Aegon as hostages. And even then, they only participated in 1 battle and were the first to break in this battle. They never tried to help again the royalists again, nor did they try and hold out once the royalists had lost.

So if I understood you correctly, than I can very well see that there was a conspiracy going on.

Nailed it !!

Or not, depends if she was really a hostage. It's quite strange they had only a few men within their team. Even assuming everybody else was preoccupied with something, it was enough for Ned to take his own guards and there would be 20, instead of 7. Much better chances against KG. Well, take as many men as you like, the war is over.

My thoughts on this would be they are on some other type of mission. Most likely there was a need for some secrecy and therefore they couldn't afford big company. But I'm not sure what kind of secrets they were trying to find, only have some thoughts.

Ahhhhh now that's the right thought,it's hard not to question "when and from who" Ned found out where Lya was and why take only 7.I get the impression from Rhaegar's talk with Jamie that he thought for sure he was coming back from the Trident.To which i will ask was Robert really supposed to be there of if it was by design that he was?

Ah the joys of sleep and what you miss, and so as usual apologies for not responding directly to posts various:

A lot of what was discussed last night really comes down to that World Book chapter which GRRM was so keen to write.

The kingdom is in a bad way politically largely but probably not entirely due to Aerys' being less than sane although given the way history is always written by the winners we may question whether that picture although fundamentally true might not be painted a little over-dramatically. All we have in the book text is that reported remark by Rhaegar that he was going to call a Great Council when he returned from the Trident, and thus we're given the impression, assiduously fostered and fed by Baristan that he was an all round good egg. The House of the Undying vision is cited as evidence that he wanted a third [child] notwithstanding his looking at Danaerys as he said it, and then the Reed's story is cited to tie Lyanna into the knight of the laughing tree as the trigger for Rhaegar to recognise her as the one and to drop the roses in her lap.

Now let me be quite clear. This is not a question of "hating" Rhaegar which seems to be the response to questioning this. What the World Book chapter shows [albeit in its own unreliable narration] is that not only is the kingdom unhappy with Aerys but that there are a variety of factions involved. Rhaegar may indeed have been hoping to reach a consensus at Harrenhal but that was because a consensus was necessary to bring those factions together and in particular to head off a dangerous alliance between the Starks and the Baratheons. Had the marriage of Robert and Lyanna actually been allowed to take place what then? Would everybody have lived happily ever after or is there now an alliance to set against the power of the Lannisters - no there doesn't seem to be a previous history of a feud, but does there need to be before this ?

In this context the roses are not a declaration of undying love to a woman Rhaegar has never met, but either an invitation or a warning or both. And afterwards out on the winter roads with half a dozen companions, is this obsessive love and a pre-arranged rendezvous with a lover he still hasn't met, or is it a chance met encounter at the crossroads and a valuable hostage. Consider too Aerys' reaction. Brandon's behaviour is treason that no mediaeval king can brush aside, and especially not a mad [or at least slightly unhinged] king. But in executing Lord Rickard is he just getting his rocks off or is he cutting off the head of a dangerous conspiracy?

And then St. Jon of Arryn and his puppet, Trouserless Bob. They and the new Lord Stark know they must rebel or die and the taking of Lyanna provides them with a legend. They are rebelling not as a mere faction but as the good guys, for the love of a girl cruelly taken.

Ha word!!!

Some excellent points, as usual. That there was no discussion of Lyanna's whereabouts from the time she disappeared, and Brandon seemingly blamed Rhaegar, until her death scene is... weird.

Certainly Brandon's actions would be considered treason. But Lord Rickard doesn't try to explain Brandon's motivations when he arrives in KL, or send a message to the King (and his small council) even before arriving. "Lyanna is missing. So is your son and heir, Rhaegar. What's the dilly yo?" We could have had the same outcome, but you would think that as Rickard and Brandon were prepped for their torture/deaths that one of them would have screamed out questioning Lyanna's whereabouts, for someone's ears to hear (Jaime or Barristan). Varys was also there, probably trolling the black dungeons as usual before their death.

Aerys doesn't seem too concerned about his heir being missing until he's needed to fight in the war.

Then we have Jon Arryn, Ned and Robert, who also do not make demands/inquiries about Lyanna and Rhaegar's whereabouts. And we have no Oberynesque "You stole my Betrothed. Prepare to die." line from Robert on the Trident. He finally meets face to face with the man who supposedly kidnapped her, yet doesn't stop to make inquiries about her. "Keep the Prince alive, he's a valuable hostage and I want to find out what happened to Lyanna." would have been reasonable.

And finally Ned doesn't mention Lyanna to the KG during his ToJ fever dream. Instead of the coy discussion we get about where their loyalties lie, shouldn't he be demanding, at the first, to know if Lyanna was there?

Yes, we have several unreasonable people, probably acting in character so it's not all too strange piece by piece. But when you look at the whole, all we have left are the romantic punchlines about Robert avenging the woman he loved and Rhaegar dying for the woman he loved.

Ver very good points and the insanity continues.

Yes - this does seem to be the dilemma, doesn't it? The song of the winter rose is... well, a song. And Rhaegar was both a singer and a well-read student who left "maesters... awed by his wits" from a young age. So it's easy enough to believe he was familiar with the story. But how do we reconcile this image of an intelligent, learned Rhaegar, also described as "able... determined, deliberate, dutiful, [and] single-minded," with the suggestion that he just had no idea how insulting the presentation of a blue rose crown would be to House Stark?

Looks to me like we have to choose one of two options:

1. Rhaegar knew the crown would be poorly received, and either intended the insult or didn't care; or
2. Rhaegar didn't realize he was insulting the Starks, and just wasn't as smart or capable as we've been led to believe

Take your pick.

I think he was intelligent and i think he did understand that story probably better than most.It's all about perception depending on the connection te tale has it ould look this way.

1.Bael humiliated Lord Stark by tricking him and then taking the virginity of his only daughter,knowcking him up and in his own house...Oh snap

2. Or Bael in exchange for Lady Stark's virginity( something rare and beautiful ) as a gift gave something rare and beautiful with interest.

I get the feeling that a series of unfortunate events enabled politically savy individuals to capitalize on an environment that was already tumultuous.What Rhaegar did was sure seen as an insult,hell Brandon's reaction alone is enough to see it did.But as Ygritte says " a bard's truth is different form you or i" and i think Rhaegar had the truth when he laid the laurel in Lya's lap.If Lya was the KNOTLT then i think we should as a broader question " when and under what circumstance does a knight leave his shield behind?"

Hello everyone,been lurking for a year now and thought I may aswel dip in.can I just say that this is by far the most knowledgeable thread on the entire site and it's been very entertaining and informative for me.Black crow,wolfmade,snowfyre plus countless Others I take my hat of to you all.I've done 3 re-reads and am no way near as schooled on asoiaf as you lot.

However the general concensus amongst heretics is that there isn't to be a great showdown with the Others based on the belief that grrm wants to subvert the fantasy stereotype.one could argue that that stereotype is the Lord of the rings,but even in lotr the battle at the Black Gate is only a faint to allow Frodo the chance to destroy the ring.

So a great climatic battle to vanquish the evil enemy isn't really playing to type,at least not in contrast to the best known fantasy epic before asoiaf.

Thoughts if any ha?

Welcome to Heresy Shagwell make yourself at home

I know this has been alluded to and probably discussed, but how big of a hand could the Lannisters have had?

Lyanna dead, all of Aerys's heirs dead or accounted for, Robert is King and freed up to marry Cersei, the Lannisters back in the royal fold more than ever before, Tywin wanted his daughter to be a Queen.

They were the big winners in the events of RR, even more so than Robert himself.

It still doesn't tie in the events at Harrenhal and the ToJ, however.

But I do keep in mind the 1993 letter, and the central theme being a Lannister/Stark rivalry.

I brought this up before as well.If we look at what this whole situation accomplished a major Lord and his heir was taken out (Rickard and Brandon) stalling a Tully/ Stark and Baratheon/Stark alliance in the process.Meanwhile taking out a monarch and his heir and supossedly his heirs heir while coincidentally the man who would sit the throne after had "their blood" too.Who happened to marry Tywin's daughter a marraige brokered by guessed it Arryn and Tywin. The two people who most profited.Hah talk about a sweet set up.

I don't understand the why so many are hesitant to believe that Rhaegar was following prophecy as opposed to politics. The one constant with Rhaegar is that he seemed determined to bring about the Prince that Was Promised prophecy. He first believed it was him, then after a comet passed over King's Landing he believed it to be his son. Something he read made him decide he had to be a warrior. He had a psychic connection to Summerhall.

There is nothing about his actions at the Harrenhal tourney that is consistent with a politial ploy to gain an alliance with the Starks. So as Snowfyre said either he was incredibly tone deaf when it came to forming political alliances, or his actions at Harrenhal indicated that he was setting matters in motion that were more important to him than trying to form a political alliance.

ETA: I think our basic problem is we haven't been told what TPTWP prophecy is. Until we know the prophecy the purpose behind his actions will continue to confound us.

I don't know if that is a fair statement,i don't think he was activley trying bring about said prophecy vs just saying it's me,its not me etc.If we look at what we know of Rhaegar and the prophecy all we get is that he believed it was him when he was younger,changed his mind and believed it was Aegon and per Dany's dream believed there must be one more.Yes it is true we don't know what this prince is said to do but whatever it is could'nt and wouldn't go down well if you help create a hostile environment yourself.I think what we are neglecting is that what Rhaegar did at the tourney may have nothing to do with either and it is my belief that he in his mind felt he was honoring a girl that had been dishonored by "his father." The major points of the Bael story to a casual onlooker is that a Bael deflowered Lord Starks Daughter right under his nose.I tink while something political was going on the incident with the rose was something a bit more humane in origin.It was just used to create strife by Aerys yes men and because of historical context and Stark pride Brandon overreacted.

Lya being dead early in the game would certainly make sense of the issues listed, but then we run into the jon Snow conundrum - either he isn't Lyanna's son after all, or he is much older than we think. I'm OK with this to an extent as I believe Jon is the elder of he and Robb anyway, but getting into a year or so older creates bigger conflicts with other parts of the story that I'm not sure could be reconciled easily.

Whatever the circumstances surrounding Lyanna’s disappearance, we can surmise three things:

1) It was egregious enough to cause Brandon to shift gears and ride immediately to the situation;

2) something made Brandon definitively think the culprit was Rhaegar;

3) something made Brandon definitively think that he would find Rhaegar in King’s Landing.

Now, Lyanna being kidnapped at swordpoint by the crown prince in front of witnesses would certainly do the trick. A version of this seems to be what Dany has been led to believe by Viserys.

I wan't to address the bolded red first it is something i've said and brought up on a few occassions.And it's worth repeating,dates are very fallible,people get confused and people intentionally lie,or because they don't know the truth they create one in order to explain things.One or more of which i believe has taken place to conceal Jon's age.I do think Martin is good with dates ans timelines and if so how to create a pattern that is just as accurate and maybe even more so.There is a reason in this story seasons are important and it is a true gage of when things happen.I had laid out the inaccuracies of character information pertaining to thier birth date in relation to the season they were said to have been born and to bring it up again with Jon already we have a problem.

"The old men called this weather spirit summer, and said it meant the season was giving up its

ghosts at last. After this the cold would come, they warned, and a long summer always meant a

long winter. This summer had lasted ten years. Jon had been a babe in arms when it began." ( making him 5yrs old and far from being a babe in arms)

When you take the above in relation to Dany's birth 8-9 months after Jon( during a brief summer storm) ,the duration of the False Spring,when Howland went to the tourney then we have a problem.A lot of things were going on during that time,who really has time to notice,pay close attention to a bastard child.If they did there is so much myth around bastards being bigger,more evil etc all of these easily enacted to explain away what is plain as the nose on ones face. The timelines are mute.

[Frey family reunion]

Actually I totally agree. Making a human error in while trying to bring together Ice and Fire for the purpose of his prophetic ambitions makes sense.

Regardless of his motives, the laurel did not convey the message he hoped it would. A misunderstanding here makes more sense than a threat. He wanted the North's support, and maybe the North's daughter.

I'm not dismissing the prophecy. Rather, if we assume he was driven by it, and making plans for his great council, alienating the Starks seems like the last thing he'd want to do.

Once again, it kind of depends on what his end game was. The fact that he was so obsessed with Summerhall, makes me suspicious that his end game was the same as Aegon V which resulted in the Summerhall tragedy. In other words dragons. If he was looking to bring dragons back than ultimately it may not matter who he pissed off, they'd be bending the knee soon enough.

[Black Crow]

Actually I totally agree. Making a human error in while trying to bring together Ice and Fire for the purpose of his prophetic ambitions makes sense.

Regardless of his motives, the laurel did not convey the message he hoped it would. A misunderstanding here makes more sense than a threat. He wanted the North's support, and maybe the North's daughter.

I'm not dismissing the prophecy. Rather, if we assume he was driven by it, and making plans for his great council, alienating the Starks seems like the last thing he'd want to do.

I'd say that a very big part of the problem really does lie with not knowing what the prophecy was/is really about and whether and how it differs from the Azor Ahai prophecy. To Mel, Azor Ahai is the warrior with a flaming sword who will use it to slay the heathen etc [although until Davos alerts her to what's happening up north the heathen appear to be anybody who doesn't see the light], but is this necessarily the case with the Prince that was Promised or is he promised as a peacemaker? Its possible but on the whole I'd be wary. Maester Aemon reckoned that Danaerys is the one but as her qualifications for the job, as perceived by him, appear be limited to her Targaryen blood and her dragons, I really don't see the Prince being promised as Baelor the Blessed come again. Fire and Blood seem much more like it.

[Voice]

Once again, it kind of depends on what his end game was. The fact that he was so obsessed with Summerhall, makes me suspicious that his end game was the same as Aegon V which resulted in the Summerhall tragedy. In other words dragons. If he was looking to bring dragons back than ultimately it may not matter who he pissed off, they'd be bending the knee soon enough.

Wouldn't it make more sense for him to wait until he had such a dragon before picking fights? The realm is on the verge of chaos. Rather than making folks bend knees, his purposes seem needing of allies.

[Frey family reunion]

Wouldn't it make more sense for him to wait until he had such a dragon before picking fights? The realm is on the verge of chaos. Rather than making folks bend knees, his purposes seem needing of allies.

Of course it would. But did in fact he need Lyanna and/or her offspring to bring about a prophecy/blood magic/ (who knows what) to bring his plans to fruition?

The fact remains, that he secreted Lyanna away, and her location was kept from her family. There seems to be no dispute about that. The only question was did she go into hiding willingly or was she in fact kidnapped? This is why I can't believe that this is a political conspiracy designed to to create an alliance with the Starks, or the Arryns, or the Baratheons. And probably not the Tully's either.

As far as I can tell her disappearance was never used as a baragaining chip to keep the Starks at bay (like Elia may have been used to force the Martells to aid the crown). Or if it was, that fact has been kept completely silent.

So we are left with Rhaegar madly falling in love at first sight with the 14 year old tomboy, and despite the fact that he returns to Dragonstone for the birth of his child, he somehow maintains a relationship which ultimately leads to their secret elopement, or Rhaegar deciding that she or her offspring were needed to play a part in his Song of Ice and fire.

[Voice]

I'd say that a very big part of the problem really does lie with not knowing what the prophecy was/is really about and whether and how it differs from the Azor Ahai prophecy. To Mel, Azor Ahai is the warrior with a flaming sword who will use it to slay the heathen etc [although until Davos alerts her to what's happening up north the heathen appear to be anybody who doesn't see the light], but is this necessarily the case with the Prince that was Promised or is he promised as a peacemaker? Its possible but on the whole I'd be wary. Maester Aemon reckoned that Danaerys is the one but as her qualifications for the job, as perceived by him, appear be limited to her Targaryen blood and her dragons, I really don't see the Prince being promised as Baelor the Blessed come again. Fire and Blood seem much more like it.

Indeed that is a very big part of all our problems isn't it? We don't have all the information needed in pretty much every department...

I'm not suggesting tptwp is a peacemaker, just that Rhaegar may have been trying to rally support from the north by riding past his own wife and laying the crown at the lap of Lyanna Stark. Then, all the smiles died and he was like, "oops..."

Rather than unite the north with his cause he inadvertently wiped out his one hope for a great council (and possibly his hopes of fathering tptwp on a maiden of the north). He would be left with precious few options at that point, and thereby be forced to extreme measures...like abducting Lyanna, or giving in to her girlish whim to run away.

[Black Crow]

So very much of this story is about unintended consequences and not thinking things through.

[Black Crow]

The kingsguard were there. Since they would not bend the knee, killing was his business, and business was good!

I refer once again to my three ronin essay.