Kaibaman Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Yes, but the crone was mistaken -- the crone misread the prophecy. I have tried to explain upthread that the person seeing the prophetic vision often misunderstand what is being see. So the crone thinks she is looking at a "stallion" which is the representation of Rhaego. The crone was wrong. I believe she was looking at a mare who is the representation of Dany. The crone merely interpreted what she saw based on what she expected to see. But if the vision is really a prophecy, then Rhaego was never TSWMTW because Rhaego is dead (and would be too young in any event if he had lived). What I really don't understand is why you think the crone might be incorrect about it being Rhaego and it really could be Drogon, but you don't see the possibility that the crone is incorrect and the real "stallion" is Dany. That is a possibility. But then why would the crone say Dany is going to give birth to the Stallion? Why not claim she is the Stallion (or will become it) and not its mother? What possible vision could the crone have seen to come to the wrong interpretation that Dany gives birth to the Stallion, rather than is the actual Stallion? You have to admit that's one hell of a misinterpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 That is a possibility. But then why would the crone say Dany is going to give birth to the Stallion? Why not claim she is the Stallion (or will become it) and not its mother? What possible vision could the crone have seen to come to the wrong interpretation that Dany gives birth to the Stallion, rather than is the actual Stallion? You have to admit that's one hell of a misinterpretation. I still think the crone misunderstood the prophesy. Dany will be "reborn" as TSTMTW. The crone likely misinterpreted what she saw which represented Dany's rebirth as Dany giving birth to the stallion. I believe that whenever a seer simply reports precisely what is being seen, the vision is reliable and the readers can interpret for themselves (such as when Mel says that she looks for AAR, but all she sees is Snow -- Mel does not understand what she sees, but I believe the reader is meant to understand that Jon Snow is AAR). We don't know what exactly the crone is seeing, just that she understands what she sees to mean that Dany is giving birth to the stallion. Again, I believe that the crone has misunderstood what she is seeing. The crone cannot consider it possible that a woman would lead the Dothraki so, for example, if the crone see a vision of Dany turning into a horse that leads the Dothraki then the vision would be understood by the crone to be Dany giving birth to the stallion. But the vision itself would be accurate -- the crone would just have misinterpreted it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sleeper Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 I think you make a valid point in the bolded language that has not been adequately addressed by many people -- including myself -- who believe Dany to be TSTMTW. You are correct that while a dragon apparently has no gender, horses certainly do. But I still think that the Aemon quote you are referencing is relevant. He thought Dany might be TPTWP. He was wrong (Jon is), but I think he was right that Dany will end up fulfilling a prophecy assumed to be a male -- namely the stallion in question here. GRRM is giving the readers a clue. Of course Aemon is going to be wrong because GRRM is not going to spoon feed the answers to the readers that easily. But the quote gets the readers to think about potential gender mistakes in the way that prophecies are passed down over time. So how do I explain why the prophecy is passed down as a stallion? I am not sure, but I have been thinking about it and have a working hypothesis. I think that the prophecy came to the "seer" as a vision of a giant horse leading the Dothraki tribes. From the vision, it was not possible to tell the gender of the horse, but given the nature of Dothraki society, it simply was assumed that the horse was male -- and thus the prophecy was handed down describing the leader as a stallion. But the horse in that vision really was a mare -- it was Dany. I think there is a fairly simple explanation for that. We don't know how the Dosh Khalen make their prophecy, it could wither be a vision, or simply receive impressions or knowledge. We can, howver expect them to consider and interpret whatever knowledge they are receiving according to their cultural biases. They received the knowledge of a great leader uniting the dothraki and conquering the world. As in their minds only a man can lead it was self-evident to them that that leader could only be Dany's son instead of Dany herself. As Dany still had not underwent whatever happened her in the tent with Mirri Maz Duur later in the tent, it can be said that she wasn't yet the great conqueror, the dragon, that she was to become, but as of yet bore the potential or destiny within her. Another interpretation would be that they saw, indeed Rhaego, but that Dany with the sacrifice used her sons life to make dragons and took his destiny for her own. After all she did dream of Rhaego being burned and saw a vision to that same effect in the house of the undying. The prophecy would not be forestalled but change direction. Or this was meant to happen in any case and makes no practical difference. In my mind there is no question. Dany is well on her way to conquer Essos, has already been declared a religious figure and is regarded as semi-mythical by many of her followers. I don't think Aemon was wrong, just that he did not see the whole truth. When he was talking to Sam he did equate the words "dragon" and "prince" in Valyrian. If you combine it with the prophecy that the dragon has three heads, I take it to mean that there are three individuals who are the promised prince collectively, with two of them being Dany and Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickStormborn Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 That is a possibility. But then why would the crone say Dany is going to give birth to the Stallion? Why not claim she is the Stallion (or will become it) and not its mother? What possible vision could the crone have seen to come to the wrong interpretation that Dany gives birth to the Stallion, rather than is the actual Stallion? You have to admit that's one hell of a misinterpretation. Because Dany was Drogo's khaleesi, and khaleesi return to Vaes Dothrak when their husbands are dead. There was no reason to suspect that Dany could ever possibly take control of a khalasar. Thus the only solution for the Dosh Khaleen is that Dany's son must be the one who fulfills the prophecy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicalLeopard Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 That's not so whacky. But what would a little Rhaego do for our plot? Nothing I could see at this point. Depends on the passage of time in the series whether we'd ever see him. As a child, he'd only provide some comfort and joy (and an heir) to Dany. One of her visions indicated that he was a lord in Westeros, which is interesting, instead of a horselord on the Dothraki plain. It seems like that's an intentional loose end that George left fir himself in case he decided to use it. Who knows, maybe George decides to do ASOIAF: The Next Generation, or ASOIAF Two: Electric Boogaloo, and we'll see him in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicalLeopard Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 if MMD did use an illusion to make people believe Rhaego was misshapen, they she would surly would have made sure he was fed to the dogs.Unless she kept him because he was valuable. He is the Stallion that Mounts the World. How secure would she be being the STMTW's mother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Reckoner Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 I could see Dany burning down cities in Essos with the mindset that she's offering everyone there a new start by destroying the old. Or something, since trying to baby them didn't work for her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 There is a vision of the crones bowing before Daenerys. The Dosh Khaleen don't bow to khals, so they would only bow to someone who was the leader of ALL the Dothraki - the stallion that mounts the world. That's all the textual evidence we need. But there's plenty more... Just look at the original prophecy and switch "he" to "she", and it's clearly describing Daenerys. "Fierce as a storm"... How much more obvious can it actually get?! Along with the whole "bend Dothraki to her will" from the 93 letter, I guess not obvious enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Along with the whole "bend Dothraki to her will" from the 93 letter, I guess not obvious enough. "by using her dragons" is conveniently omitted here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 "by using her dragons" is conveniently omitted here. Or you're just nitpicking. I happen to find her will the more important bit since Dany is the human character who is important enough to be mentioned as one of the main five, not her dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Or you're just nitpicking. I happen to find her will the more important bit since Dany is the human character who is important enough to be mentioned as one of the main five, not her dragon. That is perfectly OK if it turns out that The Stallion is actually a mount as the name implies, but a big ass mount and whoever can ride it, the Dothraki follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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