The Snark of Winterfell Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Assuming the following: - Pate is Jaqen. So, there is a faceless man in the Citadel with a key that can open any door, presumably to obtain something of importance, whether it be the 3 pages of the Daenys Targs original visions that Marwyn claimed to find, a glass candle, other ancient items. - Jaqen has a larger mission, which includes infiltrating KL guiding Arya to become a FM, killing Balon Greyjoy and obtaining a dragon egg, and infiltrating the Citadel and obtaining whatever he is looking for. - His next objective is the Wall and Sam is his vehicle to the Wall. So, assuming the above, there is a chance of a conflict between Jaqen and Sam. Jaqen knows that Sam is returning to the Wall as a maester which is a trusted position, which would make Sam a good candidate to kill and take the looks of. Does Sam survive the FM, die to the FM, is he saved by intervention from someone, or does no conflict take place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Storm Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I think he needs to survive. He will learn some truth about how to defeat the others and will take that information to the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robb_Warged Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Sam will discover R+L=J and die before letting anyone know about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balerion's Whiskers Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I fear Sam may never make it back to the Wall...as he was leaving, Jon noted the snowflakes melting in his hair...just like Robb. I'd really like to see him have a happy ending, but not sure it will happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Well, it took him a whole book to get to Oldtown from the Wall, so he better forge his chain during Winds so he can make it back in Dream. On the other hand... http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/90950-the-last-hero-tale-by-old-nan-foreshadows-the-deaths-of/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf of the Steppes Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I fear Sam may never make it back to the Wall...as he was leaving, Jon noted the snowflakes melting in his hair...just like Robb. I'd really like to see him have a happy ending, but not sure it will happen. This is what I have always suspected. I believe that the OP has a good theory on why he won't make it back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyberdirectorfreedom Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 That's a lot of assumptions. It's certainly believable that Jaqen is Pate. Now, the assumption that Jaqen always meant to train Arya as a Faceless Man is a bit odd, though I have heard it before, it just seems like something that would take an impressive level of foresight to accomplish. And wouldn't really be necessary. Many people have the potential to be good assassins, why get Arya? And the dragon egg thing? Sure, if it's true that Euron did indeed have a dragon egg, it could be used to pay the Faceless Men. But we also know that Euron has a great deal of treasures (the kingsmoot) with which he could pay them with. It's also possible that if Euron ever had an egg, he really did throw it in the ocean. He seems a bit... unhinged, to say the least. It's no stretch to believe that he'd throw a priceless treasure into the ocean if angry enough, because he has ships full of priceless treasure! Plus, if the egg was payment, it's unlikely that Jaqen was the Faceless Man who killed Balon, as that would mean that Jaqen brought the egg with him to the Citadel. Which seems odd. Why are we assuming that Jaqen wants to go to the Wall? If it's because he was being sent to the Wall, then that goes completely against the other assumptions. If Jaqen was heading to the Wall, without looking for a way out, how was he supposed to assassinate Balon, or go to the Citadel? Sure, he could always change his face and desert, but I just don't see that he necessarily wanted to go. A more likely assumption would be that Jaqen got caught after killing someone in King's Landing and got sent to the Black Cells; then he was sent to the Wall. Assassins can get caught killing people. Now, a possible motive for him going to the Wall is the Library there, but then that's assuming that he wants books from the Citadel, which may or may not be true, we really don't know why he's there. Anyway, if we assume that Jaqen does indeed want to go to the Wall, and if we assume that he intends to use Sam to get there, and if we assume that this'll lead to conflict between Jaqen and the Great Craven, then Sam's dead as dirt. There's no way he'd survive against Jaqen. The man was killing people (who weren't incredibly cowardly) in Harrenhal like it was nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bastard of Walton Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I think Sam will make it back.I have no idea what Jaqen is after in Oldtown, but I don't think he is planning on killing Sam. Euron though, I think he is after the Horn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevasTra82 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I don't see him returning to the wall. And if he does, it'll be during an epilogue of the final book or something. Sam is now our "eyes" at the Citadel, and there seems to be quite a lot happening (and about to happen) there. With all the hints of the Citadel holding many secrets, Jaqan being there, etc...I think it's safe to say Sam will remain there and survive. With GRRM stating that there will not be any new POV's going forward...if Samwell dies, who would be our eyes there? Nobody. Sam will remain and survive. I'm actually very intrigued by his POV and the happenings there. I feel a lot of Westeros's secrets are going to be revealed through Sam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northbound3.0 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 If Jaqen H'ghar kills Sam; I will climb to those pages and beat him to death, with his own swinging cod! But it is a vaild question and point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faithless Man Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Before Jaqen can go to the Wall posing as Sam, he will need to put on a few pounds.Faceless Men take the face of a person, not the entire body.Since Jon has been asking for more Maesters for the newly manned castles on the Wall, there might be an easier way for Jaqen to get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonnyscouse Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I'm not sure leading Arya to be an FM would have been planned. That would have required prior knowledge of Ned's execution, including Joffrey going against Cersei's instruction to send him to the Wall instead. Also knowledge that Arya would be saved by a Brother and taken with him. It's more likely Jaqen saw something in Arya, on the road or in Harrenhall that told him she'd make a good FM. The question is why Jaqen was in the black cells waiting to be sent to The Wall. I don't think we find out how long Jaqen was there beforehand so we don't know his target.It could have been Ned if he had only just been put there, and had knowledge of the planned punishment, in which case his mission there is over. It could have been someone else at the Wall at the time, in which case the odds are they are already dead, so he no longer needs to go. OTOH if it's some one who survived the Fist, Craster's Keep and the battle then he is still required there. It could also be that his mission up there isn't an assassination but there's something either at The Wall or north of it that he needs to get, in that case he still needs to get there. Basically we know his original mission involved The Wall, if it still does then Sam is in serious danger, if it no longer does then Sam may be safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasonimovic Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 That's a lot of assumptions. It's certainly believable that Jaqen is Pate. Now, the assumption that Jaqen always meant to train Arya as a Faceless Man is a bit odd, though I have heard it before, it just seems like something that would take an impressive level of foresight to accomplish. And wouldn't really be necessary. Many people have the potential to be good assassins, why get Arya? And the dragon egg thing? Sure, if it's true that Euron did indeed have a dragon egg, it could be used to pay the Faceless Men. But we also know that Euron has a great deal of treasures (the kingsmoot) with which he could pay them with. It's also possible that if Euron ever had an egg, he really did throw it in the ocean. He seems a bit... unhinged, to say the least. It's no stretch to believe that he'd throw a priceless treasure into the ocean if angry enough, because he has ships full of priceless treasure! Plus, if the egg was payment, it's unlikely that Jaqen was the Faceless Man who killed Balon, as that would mean that Jaqen brought the egg with him to the Citadel. Which seems odd. Why are we assuming that Jaqen wants to go to the Wall? If it's because he was being sent to the Wall, then that goes completely against the other assumptions. If Jaqen was heading to the Wall, without looking for a way out, how was he supposed to assassinate Balon, or go to the Citadel? Sure, he could always change his face and desert, but I just don't see that he necessarily wanted to go. A more likely assumption would be that Jaqen got caught after killing someone in King's Landing and got sent to the Black Cells; then he was sent to the Wall. Assassins can get caught killing people. Now, a possible motive for him going to the Wall is the Library there, but then that's assuming that he wants books from the Citadel, which may or may not be true, we really don't know why he's there. Anyway, if we assume that Jaqen does indeed want to go to the Wall, and if we assume that he intends to use Sam to get there, and if we assume that this'll lead to conflict between Jaqen and the Great Craven, then Sam's dead as dirt. There's no way he'd survive against Jaqen. The man was killing people (who weren't incredibly cowardly) in Harrenhal like it was nothing. :agree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Cold Fingers Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I don't think there will be a Wall for Sam to make it back to! He may see Jon again...but, IMO, it won't be at the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Before Jaqen can go to the Wall posing as Sam, he will need to put on a few pounds.Faceless Men take the face of a person, not the entire body.Since Jon has been asking for more Maesters for the newly manned castles on the Wall, there might be an easier way for Jaqen to get there.The FM know all kinds of tricks, as the KM told Arya. Mel knows a trick thst made Rattleshirt seem bigger like the Mance. Do you believe Mel's kung-fu is better than Jaqen's? No way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Creighton Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Sam make it back to the Wall? No. Sam has a Job to find a way to defeat the Others and he has already started, in the last chapter of Crows Sam relates the information about Dany and her Dragons, the Others, and Aemon's belief to Marwyn and sends him on his way. He has had encounters with Bran, Arya and will soon be tied to Dany via Marwyn.He is standing right in front of a Glass Candle, which can clearly be used to help fight the Others. He has family in Oldtown on his mothers side who are under the protection of House Hightower. There are two more candles. And a book he may be able to use.Sam has faced multiple confrontations in his time in the watch and has over come them. If the FM and Sam come into conflict, Sam will beat him. He beat an Other with a pointy rock and a Wight with a stick. He will eventually flee Oldtown when the plague arrives via JonCon which will repeat the history of plagues in Oldtown. Winter has come and the seas and land are difficult to travel by. Plus all the pending fighting that seems about to happen. Jon and Sam will reunite eventually at Harrenhal, when Sam shows up with Dany and her 3 Dragons, Arya, 3 candles, a book, and probably Edric Dayne and Dawn and infrmation on Bran, says see I brought help, bros hug it out, and why will he do all this. Because he is the god damn Slayer and the Slayer doesn't know how to lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balerion's Whiskers Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Jaqen had no way of knowing that Sam was coming to Oldtown and I do not think Sam is part of his plans. In fact, by Jaqen killing Pate, he goes against everything that the Kindly Man was trying to teach Arya. Arya could only give the Gift to the one that was targeted, she couldn't kill anyone else. So Jaqen's mission is totally different that what FM usually do. Whether this is by design or as a rogue agent, we'll have to wait for tWoW, won't we? I think that Sam is to be our eyes in Oldtown with his POV and will remain alive for the foreseeable future,. I think Sam may not have time to complete his master's training before the Ironborn swarm the city. (GRRM rule #1...if a character says something will happen...then it won't)I really hope that Sam and Jon will cross paths again, but I don't think it will be for some time. Whether he survives the series is open to speculation, but a bastard, a little girl, a dwarf and fat coward teaming up to save the realm sounds like GRRM. edited for spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SummerSphinx Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Jaqen had no way of knowing that Sam was coming to Oldtown and I do not think Sam is part of his plans. In fact, by Jaqen killing Pate, he goes against everything that the Kindly Man was trying to teach Arya. Arya could only give the Gift to the one that was targeted, she couldn't kill anyone else. So Jaqen's mission is totally different that what FM usually do. Whether this is by design or as a rogue agent, we'll have to wait for tWoW, won't we? edited for spellingI completely agree.I agree that Pate's body was stolen, it seems like a FM, and it seems like Jaquen. But it could be a different FM on a different mission. It could be Jaquen on a new mission. It could be a former FM gone rogue. Maybe for really big jobs, FM can kill others? Just not generally? I think the KM sugarcoats for acolytes and brainwashes trainees. The religion might help trainees sleep better, but the FM KILL for hire. I understand why they want controled people, not emotional loose canons, but I don't think the top brass believe the religion. It's a business. We don't know if Jaquen was trying to go to the wall. I assumed he was picked up in KL for suspicious behavior (or his "costume" was wanted for something else), and it wasn't part of the original plan.I have no idea how FM communicate, but he was a long way from Braavos. Do they communicate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I think people read way too much into what the kindly man says to Arya in that moment. Arya thought of killing someone else when she didn't have to, and so the kindly man said we don't just kill for no reason. The way to kill the insurer was probably obvious to the kindly man the first time Arya described what she saw, as we saw Jaqen kill Pate the same way, he was just trying to steer her in the right direction. The kindly man also insinuates to Arya that the FM caused the doom, the worldbook tells us that they assassinated pyromancers/ fire mages who were keeping the doom in check, but obviously lots of other people died, including slaves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgul-Blade Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 His death, at least thus far, wouldn't be dramatic enough. If he does eventually get bumped off, it will happen at the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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