Caerl Targaryen Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 It depends on what you mean by "better off." With Beric leading them, they at least seemed to have some sort of moral compass. With Cat leading them, they've become increasingly bloodthirsty and violent. They'll kill people simply on Cat's say so. Beric at least seemed to have some honor and a desire to be at least somewhat fair. Cat just wants vengeance. In that sense, they've become much more efficient at killing people. But I think Cat is pretty far off the rails... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 LMAO, ya killing children and laughing about it is totally fine so long as u have legal protection. If you laugh at anything, perhaps it ought to be at your failure to understand that evidently, in Westeros, capital punishment is permitted for 13 year olds. Also, I think it's a mistake to think that Sandor enjoyed killing Mycah just because he laughed. We're talking here about a person whose expressions are not often within social norms. What may be legal may not be moral. But, legal norms do influence people's moral conduct. It's one reason why ex post facto laws are generally frowned upon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword of the Morgan Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Beric. LS wants revenge more than justice imo Yeah, I have to agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 It depends on what you mean by "better off." With Beric leading them, they at least seemed to have some sort of moral compass. With Cat leading them, they've become increasingly bloodthirsty and violent. They'll kill people simply on Cat's say so. They did the same for Beric. And they are becoming increasingly blood-thirsty now because of the brutality of the war and the way their enemies treat them, not because of her, she is actually holding back the likes of Lem who want to hang everyone. As for Sandor and Mycah, neither Joff nor Cersei had any legal power to order executions at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 As for Sandor and Mycah, neither Joff nor Cersei had any legal power to order executions at this point. And how exactly would Sandor have known this? How would he have known what powers Cersei may or may not have derived from Robert? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Holy Goat Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Beric was better for them IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Cold Fingers Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 But how much better will the BWB be they have a new leader...Jaime!! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DasallmaechtigeJ Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 They did the same for Beric. And they are becoming increasingly blood-thirsty now because of the brutality of the war and the way their enemies treat them, not because of her, she is actually holding back the likes of Lem who want to hang everyone. I can't recall that in the books she ever keeps anybody from "killing everyone" (meaning Lannisters/Frey). The only one she evidently did not kill is Brienne and only for her to lure Jaime into (most likely) a trap. To her, everyone with a lion or twin towers on his banner is a walking target and she will not rest until she has killed every Frey/Lannister and most likely Bolton she can get her hands on. And as of yet she is not protecting smallfolk as far as I can see, the orphanage is run by Gendry who I would speculate has deserted the brotherhood (judging from his behavior bringing Brienne back). (Nevertheless, I love the Frey bodycount and I am already curious how many will die at the hands of BWB and Manderly in the next one) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 I knew exactly who you were talking about. But, your conclusion about the whole the situation isn't as clear cut as you probably suppose. He was ordered to carry out that murder. And before you mention "Nuremburg", think very carefully about what you are going to say. Was Beric giving all the Brave Companions that he captured trials because they were just following Tywin/Roose/Vargo's orders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Was Beric giving all the Brave Companions that he captured trials because they were just following Tywin/Roose/Vargo's orders? Your point is what? Beric heard what Sandor had to say and didn't execute him immediately, even after Sandor had admitted to killing Mycah. Apparently, Beric thought Sandor had some kind of legitimate defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Eh, the BWB at best is just a group of vigilantes with dubious morals. At worst they're every bit as bad as the evil they claim to oppose. That in a nutshell is Beric vs Stoneheart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shagwell Snow Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 I thought they saught justice and to protect the smallfolk under beric and blind vengeance and retribution under stoneheart. As a side note when/ if the wall falls the riverlands is gunna be a one especially dangerous place with hundreds of wights dangling from tress plus all the corpes from riverlands rising from the brush Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Your point is what? Beric heard what Sandor had to say and didn't execute him immediately, even after Sandor had admitted to killing Mycah. Apparently, Beric thought Sandor had some kind of legitimate defense. That is exactly the point. Beric thinks following the orders of the queen to murder a kid is a legit defense. Stoneheart doesn't do such stuff. Which makes her a better person and a better judge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 That is exactly the point. Beric thinks following the orders of the queen to murder a kid is a legit defense. Stoneheart doesn't do such stuff. Which makes her a better person and a better judge. If an assault upon a prince is a crime, then why doesn't Sandor have a plausible defense? I really don't think you've really thought through all the issues here very well. Beric might have had very good reasons for believing that Sandor legally followed an order as opposed to illegally following one. Your assertion that Stonheart is a better person and judge seems to depend heavily on whether Beric made the right call with Sandor. If, however, you've made an error in your analysis of Beric's handling of the case, then your assertion would seem to fall apart. ETA Please read this http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/124936-the-will-to-change-rereading-sandor/?p=6760167 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Yeah, obviously I didn't think this through because I didn't write a 15 pages essay why Sandor murdering a kid wasn't that bad and totally legal. I bow to your superior understanding of the poor innocent misunderstood Sandor thanks to your powers of fan worship. :cool4: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Yeah, obviously I didn't think this through because I didn't write a 15 pages essay why Sandor murdering a kid wasn't that bad and totally legal. I bow to your superior understanding of the poor innocent misunderstood Sandor thanks to your powers of fan worship. :cool4: That is a horseshit answer by you. All it shows is that you have little understanding of the issues surrounding soldiers following orders. It's not as simple as you supposed. Now you're mad because I've pointed that out. Beric may have not like Sandor's actions, but at least he had the decency not to punish Sandor if there was a question on whether Sandor had committed a crime. Generally, defining crimes in a retroactive manner is a very bad thing. ETA: And I wrote the essay mainly because I got tired of people mentioning "Nuremburg" and who thought they knew what they were talking about, but really didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 That is a horseshit answer by you. All it shows is that you have little understanding of the issues surrounding soldiers following orders. It's not as simple as you suppose. So let me ask you this - how much understanding do you think Martin has about that? Do you really think Martin considered even 1/10th of all the stuff you wrote in that epic post when he wrote the AGOT chapter where Sandor murders Mycah? Does anything about that scene make the killing look like a legal execution? Legal executions are committed by executioners publicly. Sandor isn't an executioner. Why didn't he take Mycah to Ilyn Payne if he gave a damn about legality and this was supposed to be a legal execution? Your assertion that Stonheart is a better person and judge seems to depend heavily on whether Beric made the right call with Sandor. If, however, you've made an error in your analysis of Beric's handling of the case, then your assertion would seem to fall apart. Even if the murder of Mycah was technically legal (extremely unlikely IMO), so what? It is still morally wrong. And as Minsc said, Beric has already hanged hundreds of people who have committed acts which were technically legal - Tywin's dogs were following his orders to torture and murder people after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Pounce FTW Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 That is a horseshit answer by you. All it shows is that you have little understanding of the issues surrounding soldiers following orders. It's wasn't as simple as you supposed. Now your mad because I've pointed that out. Beric may have not like Sandor's actions, but at least he had the decency not to punish Sandor if there was a question on whether Sandor had committed a crime. Generally, defining crimes in a retroactive manner is a very bad thing. ETA: And I wrote the essay mainly because I got tired of people mentioning "Nuremburg" and who thought they knew what they were talking about, but really didn't. Your premise is flawed because you are assuming Sandor was given an order by someone with that authority. He wasn't. As for Beric, he also doesn't have the authority to just order an execution which is why he is to be judged by the gods. This is according to Westeros law - the same law that Cat and Lysa use to judge Tyrion since they, too, do not have the authority to just order an execution. Neither did Cersei, btw. The gods allow the Hound to win so he is judged innocent. That is what happened in the books, not some excused loophole for following orders. Finally, Sandor, himself, recognizes that he did the wrong thing with regards to Mycah. I don't know how Martin can be any clearer about this situation. Sandor is not innocent of the charge of murdering the boy, who was innocent of the charge levied against him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 No, Sandor killed Mycah. Whether, it was murder under Westeros law is debatable. At any rate, Sandor gave his reasons for killing Mycah and Beric thought it to be a potentially valid defense. That's why the trial by combat was granted to Sandor. It was, by no law of Westeros did Joffrey or Sandor's bore the right to kill the boy, worse they could do was caught his hand off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Your point is what? Beric heard what Sandor had to say and didn't execute him immediately, even after Sandor had admitted to killing Mycah. Apparently, Beric thought Sandor had some kind of legitimate defense. He only heard him because he actually understood the words coming out his mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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