Arya and Jon being Incest ( Jaehaerys I, Jon and Sansa/ Queen Alysanne )

[SevasTra82]

Honestly, if there was still a plan for Jon/Arya to be sexually involved, I'm sure that part would have been blacked out on that leaked letter. I have no doubt GRRM gave the "ok" for that letter to be leaked (so long all spoilers would be blacked out, which they were). If the Romance between Jon/Arya was still being planned, it would not have been included for everyone to read.

[ARYa_Nym]

She's the captive of Mance Rayder in the outline.

.

As Gendry points out, where did Ned find Jon, the cabbage patch? Arya does not contemplate it.

Being Mance's captive is different though plus it happened later. It would be similar had she been the Weeper or Varamyr's captive but since Mance is in charge some of the comparisons would not apply. Same thing with the fact that Bran and Cat were with her for most of it. She's not similar to child soldiers in that scenario.

Arya got mad though and wanted to hit him so she did have to think about it. Plus, afterwards Harwin explains to her that the blood runs hot at Harrenhal so there was no shame in her father hooking up with Ashara. Then Arya questions it because Ashara killed herself. So Harwin may have been explaining to her that if it was him Brandon's behavior was acceptable.

ETA:

I think, in the end, we are actually debating on the same side using different evidence. My argument simply being that I don't think her "arc is leaning towards marriage" either. She doesn't want to be a lady because of what that means in a patriarchal society like Westeros (but that doesn't preclude romance of any sort). Although I can see the ground work GRRM laid out in the outline for J/A, her actual plot in ASoIAF has driven her to become another character (by not going to the Wall among other things). So the idea of Arya marrying a lord/king and becoming his lady/queen would be antithetical to her character (unless she changes her mind about a lot of the core beliefs she has had since GoT).

Yeah, I think we're on the same page. That ending seems appropriate for a different character.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Honestly, if there was still a plan for Jon/Arya to be sexually involved, I'm sure that part would have been blacked out on that leaked letter. I have no doubt GRRM gave the "ok" for that letter to be leaked (so long all spoilers would be blacked out, which they were). If the Romance between Jon/Arya was still being planned, it would not have been included for everyone to read.

So you think it was leaked on purpose? We know how it was leaked, a Waterstones employee photographed it in HarperCollins' office and put it on the internet. It was then removed. We have no idea, what is redacted, why its redacted, who redacted it or when it was redacted.

[Winterfell is Burning]

But most of us are six degrees away... and also not his biological cousin. :ack:

In the rest of the world, reaction to marrying your first cousin ranges from "That's OK" to "That's kinda of gross, ew" but not the complete disgust most people in the US have. It's only such a big deal to Americans because you associated incest with poor people, usually from the South, so it's more of a class issue than anything.

[Tiggy4Real]

I like Sansa/Jon over Arya/Jon because if Jon is going to be Prince/King, Sansa just seems like the better bride. Yes, Arya can run a household, but does she want to? Will she find being a lady wife/ Princess/Queen more interesting than having adventures and swordfighting? Will she be able to play the game of thrones? Let me repeat that because it's the biggest point to me: WILL SHE BE ABLE TO PLAY THE GAME OF THRONES?

I avoid Arya/Jon the same way I avoid Gendry Baratheon. Unless Westeros ends in a apocalypse or something happens drastically in their storylines, neither Gendry or Arya can play the game of thrones. I just feel like Sansa and Edric would do a lot better at it.

All of that being said: if GRRM says Arya/Jon is endgame, then such is life. I was aware that it was a possibility in AGOT, and I immediately hated it because Cersei/Jaime was bad enough. However, if R+L=J is true then I'll just have to take it. I will always favor Sansa over Arya, because I feel like Sansa deserves to not be treated like a pawn anymore.

Still, it's GRRM's book, I'll just be paying to read it.

[Dicer]

Will she be able to play the game of thrones? Let me repeat that because it's the biggest point to me: WILL SHE BE ABLE TO PLAY THE GAME OF THRONES?

I avoid Arya/Jon the same way I avoid Gendry Baratheon. Unless Westeros ends in a apocalypse or something happens drastically in their storylines, neither Gendry or Arya can play the game of thrones. I just feel like Sansa and Edric would do a lot better at it.

Why do you think Sansa can play the Game of Thrones and not Arya? Arya can read people better and is smarter than Sansa. A 9 yr old Arya could see right through Cersei and Joffrey. Arya has managed to survive by herself and has been pro-active and able to come up with schemes and ideas. I would think she makes a better player than Sansa any day.

Jon himself is a fairly capable player, far ahead compared to Sansa. He is playing the game up North with Stannis, Alys and the Thenns. If he marries anyone, it's not going to be because he needs a player of the game of thrones. The only reason he would marry could be for love or to stabilize his hold on a house or throne. In which case Arya would do as well as Sansa.

Jon and Arya makes more sense because they already care for each other and he respects Arya's independence and need to forge her own way. Arya embodies the kind of girl he likes as opposed to Sansa. The Queen/Princess/Consort's only job is not to be lady of the house. As we saw with Cat, it could be to rule in the absence of her husband, rule alongside her husband and command armies as well. I think both Arya and Dany could be equally comfortable as Queens or leaders in their own right and should not be excluded just because they are not all that into being ladylike.

[Tiggy4Real]

Why do you think Sansa can play the Game of Thrones and not Arya? Arya can read people better and is smarter than Sansa. A 9 yr old Arya could see right through Cersei and Joffrey. Arya has managed to survive by herself and has been pro-active and able to come up with schemes and ideas. I would think she makes a better player than Sansa any day.

Jon himself is a fairly capable player, far ahead compared to Sansa. He is playing the game up North with Stannis, Alys and the Thenns. If he marries anyone, it's not going to be because he needs a player of the game of thrones. The only reason he would marry could be for love or to stabilize his hold on a house or throne. In which case Arya would do as well as Sansa.

Jon and Arya makes more sense because they already care for each other and he respects Arya's independence and need to forge her own way. Arya embodies the kind of girl he likes as opposed to Sansa. The Queen/Princess/Consort's only job is not to be lady of the house. As we saw with Cat, it could be to rule in the absence of her husband, rule alongside her husband and command armies as well. I think both Arya and Dany could be equally comfortable as Queens or leaders in their own right and should not be excluded just because they are not all that into being ladylike.

Arya plays the game of thrones like her father, horribly. That's what ruined Robb, that's what's ruining Jon's life. All of their lives are being ruined because they never knew what the rest of the kingdom was really like. Sansa would be a better player because she's caught up in it and actually experiencing how it's done. Arya is off being an assassin. You don't win the game by just reading people, you win by knowing what moves to make. Arya doesn't know how to make those moves; Jon's a great tactician, but he's still not making the right moves. Sansa and Daenerys are both learning because they're both in situations where you either make a play or be played. Arya neither knows how to rule or command an army. She's a lone wolf, and she's done really well for herself all things considered. I will never say the girl is not capable of being a great player, but being Queen/Princess/Consort requires her to do things she might never have wanted for herself. If she took on a new face, sure, but I don't see that happening with Arya Stark. And being queen does require you to be ladylike because you're essentially setting the trend for the rest of the noble ladies at court. Being a warrior is cool in battle, but eventually you have to put on a skirt and make nice with your enemies. Daenerys is already living that life, Arya would never agree to it. Not while she's Arya Stark. Sansa has no other choice.

This reads as super hyped, but I really feel like people give Arya too many leniencies that were never given to Sansa. They're both young girls who are essentially still growing. They've both made really stupid mistakes, but people love to rag on Sansa like they've forgotten what it was to be a preteen. Of the two Sansa was always meant to be the lady, whereas I aways felt that Arya would strike her own path. They compare her so much to Lyanna because they were both headstrong and adventurous - which apparently is not a great trait to have in that family. It's one thing to want your fave to be Queen, but it's a total other thing to pretend that that's something your fave would actually want to do. I'll admit that right now my fave just wants to disappear quietly into the Vale. Sansa's pretty much done with marriage for the moment, and just wants her and Robin to live to see Spring. But I bet you she'd come out her time with Littlefinger making she could never be used as a pawn again. Would she reach for queenship? I don't know, but I think she'd be capable. I can't see queenship for Arya. You expect this girl to be a Visenya, but I feel like she'd blow it off like Rhaenys (she always read like she's never cared for it to me). You expect her to be Good Queen Alysanne, but I expect her to be the Alysanne who left her husband for a year because of a fight they had. Arya would never be one for the kind of compromises that go into being a queen.

Again, too much. I've officially left debate for speculation. But here's a thought: why do we want to crown these people who don't want to be crowned? This idea that the best person for the job is the person who doesn't want the job is stupid. They will more than likely grow to resent it. I know Ned never wanted to be Lord of Winterfell, but at least he was trained to be a Lord. Jon didn't want to be Lord Commander, but he was steward to the former Lord Commander so he had some training in how to do the job. Arya has none of it. Sansa at least knows what not to do. Edric at least knows how to be a lord to Gendry's "just let me be a blacksmith". Daenerys has been steadily gearing up to take over an empire. Margaery knows how the damn game is played. There are enough people trying to be king/queen for not-evil reasons. Giving the Iron Throne to someone who does not want it, nor is going to put in the power to fight for it (by right of conquest) seems super idiotic.

TL;DNR Jon needs to stay Lord Commander and keep his vows because this marrying your cousin business will not end well.

[Dicer]

You don't win the game by just reading people, you win by knowing what moves to make. Arya doesn't know how to make those moves; Jon's a great tactician, but he's still not making the right moves. Sansa and Daenerys are both learning because they're both in situations where you either make a play or be played. Arya neither knows how to rule or command an army.

At the least Arya, Jon and Dany have tried their hand at outwitting the enemy. What has Sansa done so far to make you think that she will be better than any of them? Has she successfully done something, achieved anything, tried plotting, come up with her own ideas, figured out stuff on her own that makes you rank her as a better player than any of them? Yeah, Jon, Arya and Dany may have failed in their schemes, but they tried doing something. They have come up with their own plans and schemes to solve their problems and are pro-active to try to get to something they want. At the end of ADwD, I would rank Jon, Dany and Arya as being more qualified to play the game of thrones than Sansa whose accomplishments till date has been to get SR to eat his food and LF occasionally throwing some words of wisdom her way.

And being queen does require you to be ladylike because you're essentially setting the trend for the rest of the noble ladies at court. Being a warrior is cool in battle, but eventually you have to put on a skirt and make nice with your enemies. Would she reach for queenship? I don't know, but I think she'd be capable. I can't see queenship for Arya. I know Ned never wanted to be Lord of Winterfell, but at least he was trained to be a Lord. Jon didn't want to be Lord Commander, but he was steward to the former Lord Commander so he had some training in how to do the job. Arya has none of it. Sansa at least knows what not to do.

I think that a grown up Arya, hardened by her experiences, can be Queen. Queen in Westeros does not mean walking around in skirts and being feminine. Especially in the North. Where we have characters like Maege and Dacey Mormont and Alys KarStark and Wylla Manderly and even Catelyn Stark. Look at Arya's role model, the warrior Queen Nymeria. Was she walking around showing noble ladies how to knit? Arya has been trained the same way as Sansa by Septa Mordane. She also knows how to be a lady, but I don't think that is a mandatory requirement to be a Queen.

I would think between Arya and Sansa, the logical choice (If Jon had to chose between the two) would be Arya since he likes women who are fiercely independent and pro-active. I could see Jon liking Dany for the same reasons. Sansa is the anithesis of what Jon likes in a girl. You seem to object on the basis that Arya could not play the game of thrones. I think at this point of time Sansa is no better a player than Arya is and Jon himself is playing the game as opposed to Sansa. They are all traumatized little kiddies, but IMO Arya would make as good a Queen as Sansa, if not better. Dany would beat them both in qualifications however, as she has actual experience in ruling and commanding armies and is even more qualified than Jon for the job.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Again, too much. I've officially left debate for speculation. But here's a thought: why do we want to crown these people who don't want to be crowned? This idea that the best person for the job is the person who doesn't want the job is stupid. They will more than likely grow to resent it. I know Ned never wanted to be Lord of Winterfell, but at least he was trained to be a Lord. Jon didn't want to be Lord Commander, but he was steward to the former Lord Commander so he had some training in how to do the job. Arya has none of it. Sansa at least knows what not to do. Edric at least knows how to be a lord to Gendry's "just let me be a blacksmith". Daenerys has been steadily gearing up to take over an empire. Margaery knows how the damn game is played. There are enough people trying to be king/queen for not-evil reasons. Giving the Iron Throne to someone who does not want it, nor is going to put in the power to fight for it (by right of conquest) seems super idiotic.

TL;DNR Jon needs to stay Lord Commander and keep his vows because this marrying your cousin business will not end well.

That is wrong. Jon wanted to distinguish himself, it's just at that particular time in his life that he wasn't much into it, as he was, psychologically, a wreck. He joined the NW because bastards could rise high in the ranks there, so it's not as if he does not have any ambition.

And, we are not going to give the throne to anyone, willing or not, prepared or not, well intended or not.

It doesn't matter so much what characters want and it certainly does not matter at all what fans want. It's totally irrelevent. I may wish all I want for Arya an Alyn Velaryon like future, to travel the world and come back to visit whenever she feels like to, but I am not gonna get it.

(Nor is the writer likely to have a poll and decide his characters' fates according to what outcomes are the most popular or the least expected or whatever.)

[ARYa_Nym]

I disagree. Furthermore, the original Arya had no training that could be used for the game (in this series she has training like Varys has had) and yet despite that she was meant to be with Jon so I don't think that was a prerequisite.

Secondly, Arya doesn't play the game like Ned since she hasn't actually played at all. I don't think Sansa has played either personally. I think she gets judged on potential rather than what she has actually done. As of yet she's never plotted anything on her own that has political significance. What she's doing now reflects LF's skill. Yes, she may take him down but she doesn't actually have to be skilled at the game to do that.

I also don't think a queen has to play the game. Most queens actually were not like Visenya/Rhaenys and Alysanne. They were just supposed to be a good wife. When Tyrion was saying Sansa would be a good queen he really was just saying she would be a good wife or consort. He wasn't talking about a powerful queen like Dany. The king and his hand and whatever other advisers he had were the ones playing the game. However much power a queen has depends on what the king allows her. She doesn't just automatically get to play the game. The difference between say Rhaenys and Rhaella position as queen depended entirely on the type of king they had. Sansa is far more similar to Naerys who was a powerless queen than she was to Alysanne. Although the comparison is not exact. But still she was meant to be a powerless queen had everything gone as it was meant and she married Joffrey. Hence the reason why Naerys and Aemon got brought up in her story so you can compare it to Sandor/Joffrey.

ETA: Like so many just want Sansa to be a queen so they ship her with whoever they think may be king. She's a pawn so let's pair with Aegon. But how do you know Aegon who has had to do what others have said his whole life until ADWD when he started to get a mind of his own would listen to her? He isn't planning on listening to Dany. I think Jon's personality is one that would compromise but his wife would not run the show either. I doubt he'd pull an Aegon and let his wives rule especially since Aegon didn't even really like Visenya yet of the 3 she still did most of the ruling. Even there when Aegon had enough of her he sent her away so that was an example of the king really being the one with the power. Visenya had to wait until the opportunity came up with Aenys to let her plans come to fruition.

Jon liked Val and considered her and WF but it was not a scenario where she was the one in charge. He tells her what to do. He didn't really consider what she would feel about having to kneel and having to lead people she was once at conflict with. It was down to what he wanted and either way she would just have to go along with it.

[elliebigga]

In Georges original letter in 1993 concerning ASOIAF he did intended Arya to fall in love with Jon and for Tyrion to fall in love with Arya but for in to be unrequited.

Reading through the book its clear to see Jon and Arya relationship is different from the siblings there are many instances (dont have my books) where Jon only really seems to care about has happened to Arya other then the rest of his sibling (bare in mind he thinks Bran&Rickon are dead) he constantly remembers mushing her hair, and how she would react in a situation, the only time he really listens to Melisandre is when he thinks Arya is in her vision and he sends Mance to go get FArya and has needle made for her.

Arya herself seems to reminisce about Jon more then her other siblings she's repeatedly wants to go to the wall to see Jon and also remembers him mushing her hair. ON another note marrying cousins is pretty normal i know Twyin married his cousin and I think some Tarlys did aswell also Starks (again don't have my books) and even in real life many people marry there cousins granted it is very strange but it happens

[Han Snow]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/125364-jon-arya-hints-and-overall-significance-of-their-relationship-including-part-3/page-13

Ice Turtle posted part 3. All the quotes are there. The discussion should really be held there.

[Fox fur cloak]

I agree. Analysis is much more fun than arguing.

I know it's a bit late, but here are some points I'd like to respond to from earlier in the discussion:

I have a question: Did anyone actually think of this theory before the letter was released? Did anyone think this was at all credible? I certainly don't remember this theory being given any serious support before. Everyone on this board has read the books at least once, most probably multiple times. Doesn't it say something that nobody(or only a tiny, tiny fraction of people) here ever thought this up? The books haven't changed. The "evidence" is identical to what it was before. If there's really ANY romantic foreshadowing, why did nobody pick up on it? Why are people completely changing their understanding of the characters based off something that is like 95% completely wrong?

I believe there was some talk of Arya becoming Jon's Nissa-Nissa. I think most people dismissed that because we don't want Arya to die. Going off that idea, does anyone think that it'll happen now? Or does Arya + Jon = happy ending?

Eh, Book SanSan is a thing, confirmed by GRRM, and the showrunners went ahead and cast a 40-something actor as the Hound, at least 10 years older than his book self and almost 30 years older than Sophie Turner, so I can't say that I buy this argument.

I think I read an interview where D&D were talking about how tall Sophie had gotten, and saying how glad they were that she was still shorter than Rory...

If I recall correctly Arya does not mention to Sandor at all that he should take her to the Wall, which he could have done. And the scene with the Braavosi camptain was after Arya found out the her aunt had died and she thought there was no where else to go.

I think it's pretty funny that here Arya only thinks of the wall after the Vale, similar to in Sansa's last chapter when she suddenly remembers Jon on the ride down the mountain.

[LadyBee]

I really think that both Jon and Arya's arc of "loosing identity" might play a role if they are to get romantically involved, since their moral had been severally tested along the way. The connection they share have played a decisive part in their story line by connecting them to what they really are. Honestly, if GRRM wants to get them romantically involved, he has some serious written material to support this plan and still claim that it had always been there in our faces. It can happen, it can't. It's still open, but so far I really believe it wouldn't even be a surprise if they get to be an end game deal.

I agree with the idea that any romantic feelings would come only after an eventual arranged marriage. In fact the whole idea of Jon and Arya together for political reasons make me think about Richard III and Anne Neville. They grew up together and Warwick had been pretty much a paternal figure during a very important period of Richard's childhood. Both Richard and Anne were cousins and Richard had been an unlikely candidate to the throne with a distant position in the line of succession, but his marriage to Anne had been a great political maneuver since he got both her inheritance and very important political connections.

There are several political scenarios that could lead them to such a union. They would like it? No, but they could find some kind of advantage in this. I truly believe that Arya is the key for Jon to reach power, being it as King In The North by usurping Rickon, Warden of the North by supporting Arya's claim as Queen/Lady of the North, or even if he decides to claim the Iron Throne. There's no better blood in the marriage market than the Stark Girls, and Sansa is already married to Tyrion. Even if the union gets to be annulled, I think she would be more useful in the Vale, getting it engaged in the war or supporting Jon, if he ever claims the Iron Throne, putting Lord Rickard's "Southern Ambition" in action. Arya would be also someone to play the Game of Thrones with him, and not against him, since her loyalty had been shown over and over again (a big improvement since Robert and Cersei).

Jon's greatest ambition is Winterfell and the Stark name. It had been offered to him by Stannis, but not legitimately in his eyes. Arya could give him this along with a great connection with the Riverlands and the Vale. On the other hand, there's no one in the books that supports Arya's unusual attitude as much as Jon. We don't get to know what Arya greatest ambition in life is, mostly because she was still too young to think about it seriously; but since Ned's death there's one thing she crave for. She want Jon near her. She wants to see him again more than she want's to go back home.