AllOfTheHours Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 I agree as well, I never read their relationship that way but to each it's own. I don't think the outline would have been put on displayed anywhere if it's content would spoil any major storylines. I'm mean let's be honest it would be bad business for HarperCollins and I'm sure it would cause all kinds of trouble with HBO if a major storyline such as this was revealed outside the book series. I'm sure there are all kinds of clauses preventing major spoilers and such.Oh wel...like I said c'est la vie. To me this is the main reason I don't think Jon/Arya or Jon/Arya/Tyrion will happen. They didn't redact this part of the text like they did with the paragraph of text beneath it. They clearly didn't care to hide it. I just can't imagine GRRM allowing a main plot point in his future books to be released like that. Although GRRM has no problem with incest and will still reveal Jon's parentage (since the actual parents weren't spoiled), I doubt he would reveal a main conflict/turning point in the series in an outline before he wrote it in the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterfell is Burning Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Kevin bacon is married to his first cousin, it's not actually that rare. To be fair, everyone is connected to him, so everyone's a cousin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 I agree with this completely. I think if Arya's plot had taken her to the Wall and Jon per the outline, her character would be very different. She would have been allowed to fight the Others, but still have been able to rely on Jon and not face the world alone. But I just can't see the Arya from ADwD and WoW preview throwing away her sword and deciding to be Lady of Winterfell with Jon. At least not the vision of domestic bliss that Jon secretly longs for. Although I'm sure Jon would always respect her and encourage her freedom (unlike other possible lordly husbands), as a Lady or a Queen, Arya would have to follow certain Westerosi customs and focus her life on birthing/raising children, managing the household, and being "ladylike" to her knights and servants. I think she will/may help rebuild and protect Winterfell with her siblings, but with her assassin training as a warrior/knight (kind of like Brienne?) rather than a bride. Arya being a warrior/knight is impossible at this point. An assassin isn't a warrior. ETA: Although even there GRRM said in an interview that she's not an assassin yet. She's only an acolyte and one shouldn't assume that she will be one. The KM told her so and they operate pretty much in opposite ways. Arya doesn't have the training and it's too late in the series for her to start when it's something that takes years. Arya actually excelled at managing the household. It is the other stuff she'll have problems with. Brienne actually does have romance in her storyline. I doubt she'll marry Jamie though since I think he will be dead but if Hyle is still alive maybe he's been kept around for a reason. On the Nymeria bit you said elsewhere GRRM did say in an SSM that Nymeria is more similar to Dany. Arya does have many things in common but as far as relationships I've always felt that would be a difference. The parallel would be for her to marry Trystane which I don't see happening. Nymeria married strategically and it was a matter of alliance like Ned/Cat or Dany/Hizdahr. Arya is not going to want to do the same thing. ETA: It's said Mors loved her but I don't remember it being said that Nymeria loved him although she may have. But still that would have been something that grew over time. She married him because she needed to secure her people's position. It's not gonna happen jon will marry Val or Dany or maybe both ! Arya will probably marry Gendry Edric Baratheon an Sansa either will stay married to Tyrion or finally get her prince in Aegon Or Harry the heir I don't see that either. Admittedly she might meet Edric soon since she was told to learn Lyseni but they could always be near each other and never meet. I could easily apply what has been said in this thread about there's no groundwork for a romance b/w Arya and Jon anymore in the series to him not laying any groundwork to connect her to Storm's End. There's things in the text to link her to the Nightfort but nothing that says she will be at Storm's End.There's nothing that indicates she would like the people there or that the people there would like her. After all we got to observe these people in Jon's ADWD chapters. Many of them are of Selyse's mindset. They are conservative/want ladies to be traditional. Nothing about the way they saw Asha or Val indicates that Arya would somehow escape the critique and constraints she got at WF. They also value a different religion. She's never been to the Stormlands. We don't know if she would even like the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Duncan The Average Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 To be fair, everyone is connected to him, so everyone's a cousin. But most of us are six degrees away... and also not his biological cousin. :ack: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 May I ask how is this relevent to the Arya's age problem? If she's too young for a relationship, she's too young for a relationship. Gendry is not a kid of her age, he's at around the same age as Jon, maybe a year younger. So, he's not an alternative in that regard. The same thing applies to the show. Joe Dempsie is only a year younger than Kit. I must add that he looks old as hell to me in the face. Kit actually looks younger imo since he's somewhat baby faced. Maisie looks like a little girl. Kylie Jenner is her age. She is capable of looking grown but Maisie is not. ETA: I must add that Joe likely sees her as a little girl based on the way he tried to shut down the Arya/Gendry pairing. Kit imo would look best with Emilia though. That reminds me I think the show did at one point emphasize how young she was. When she couldn't understand Gendry and the other's attraction to Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaNymeriaVisenya Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 What do you think Arya will do Arya_Nym. You say she won't be a warrior, you know GRRM is directing us away from the Assassin line of thinking. So if she can't do them, what is her purpose? She's not really doing the politics thing Sansa is either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Age arguments with the show is not going to work, the ages are off and they are just going to work with them. Joe Dempsie also said this: "That scene where I'm forging the sword, I'm saying that it's gratuitous, but the idea they wanted to convey was that . . . it was more for Arya than anything to do with my character. It was them trying to imply that Arya's becoming a woman now and she's dealing with feelings that she's maybe not experienced before." http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/news/game-of-thrones-q-a-joe-dempsie-on-gendrys-long-strange-trip-20130606 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roose is Azor Ahai Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 I just did a re-re-re-re-re-re-read on AGoT and when I read the early chapters in WF when Arya thought about Jon they were creeping me out after I read GRRM's original plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Arthur Hightower Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Wrong and wrong. George doesn't seem to think this or cares how you feel about it. In Westeros a girl of 13 or 14 is old enough to marry You didn't explain how the first point was wrong, they are too close as siblings to want to marry in the foreseeable future, and I don't see how or why anyone would pressure them into doing so. I am perfectly aware that girls of 13 and younger end up married in westeros, Sansa wasn't quite 13 when she did. What I meant was that only 2 years have passed in the books so far, I don't know we will get another 2 years. Even if we do Arya will still be 13, I can't see 18 year old Jon being enthusiastic about marrying his 13 year old cousin, who he used to call little sister. And I'd say 12/13 is really pushing it for consummation, we never hear about any marriages younger than this except to preserve an important alliance or claim a girl's lands and titles, Tywin is at least somewhat understanding of Tyrion not wanting to bed 13 y.o. Sansa, though still insists he takes her maidenhead. More importantly can you imagine 13 or 14 year old Arya wanting to marry at all? Or Jon marrying her when she doesn't want it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaNymeriaVisenya Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Age arguments with the show is not going to work, the ages are off and they are just going to work with them. Joe Dempsie also said this: "That scene where I'm forging the sword, I'm saying that it's gratuitous, but the idea they wanted to convey was that . . . it was more for Arya than anything to do with my character. It was them trying to imply that Arya's becoming a woman now and she's dealing with feelings that she's maybe not experienced before." http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/news/game-of-thrones-q-a-joe-dempsie-on-gendrys-long-strange-trip-20130606 Yes, I remember them telling Maisie to say 'I can be your family' like 'I love you'. In the writing its fine, she is evolving as a young woman but physically she appears static. Maybe its the one costume she has had in 3 years or the fact that they didn't show her period like they did Sansa's I don't know. She clearly can't be 13 in the show but its like they are trying to make her look it. You didn't explain how the first point was wrong, they are too close as siblings to want to marry in the foreseeable future, and I don't see how or why anyone would pressure them into doing so. I am perfectly aware that girls of 13 and younger end up married in westeros, Sansa wasn't quite 13 when she did. What I meant was that only 2 years have passed in the books so far, I don't know we will get another 2 years. Even if we do Arya will still be 13, I can't see 18 year old Jon being enthusiastic about marrying his 13 year old cousin, who he used to call little sister. And I'd say 12/13 is really pushing it for consummation, we never hear about any marriages younger than this except to preserve an important alliance or claim a girl's lands and titles, Tywin is at least somewhat understanding of Tyrion not wanting to bed 13 y.o. Sansa, though still insists he takes her maidenhead. More importantly can you imagine 13 or 14 year old Arya wanting to marry at all? Or Jon marrying her when she doesn't want it? After the Boltons tried to use her name to hurt her family and seeing how she can be sold off to a madman if she is not lucky? Jon is a jackpot for her. Her claims are safe (not that they are much). she is with someone who actually cares and knows her. I think Arya is smart enough to figure that out, or have it explained to her. She's not a rebellious 9 year old now, she's an independant young girl/woman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Age arguments with the show is not going to work, the ages are off and they are just going to work with them. Joe Dempsie also said this: "That scene where I'm forging the sword, I'm saying that it's gratuitous, but the idea they wanted to convey was that . . . it was more for Arya than anything to do with my character. It was them trying to imply that Arya's becoming a woman now and she's dealing with feelings that she's maybe not experienced before." http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/news/game-of-thrones-q-a-joe-dempsie-on-gendrys-long-strange-trip-20130606I'm saying that if we're going to use age to discount why Jon/Arya can't happen it applies to Gendry too in the books and the show. Joe also denied it happening based on Maisie's age. There's a video of him doing it but I don't remember which one it is now. I remember shippers felt he insulted them. So essentially it wouldn't just be Kit seeing her as too young. ETA: And if Maisie looks too young for Kit then she'd have to look to young for Joe since Joe is Kit's age. Joe isn't like Eddie Redmayne or smth where he looks years younger than he is. There's also this interview: What do you make of the Arya-Gendry shippers? The people who pine for a relationship between the two of them, because of their chemistry on the show? I think it's that thing where everyone always has their first crush, and I think Gendry is Arya's first crush, so I'd imagine it's young girls, young women who are keen on this happening. It's a romantic idea, and it's a nostalgic idea as well, but I don't know if it's plausible for the story line. I think it's far more interesting whether or not they will ever meet again. They make a pretty good team in the various situations they've found themselves in, but whether or not that will be of significance down the line when it comes to the endgame, who knows?http://www.vulture.com/2013/05/game-of-thrones-gendry-joe-dempsie-interview.html What do you think Arya will do Arya_Nym. You say she won't be a warrior, you know GRRM is directing us away from the Assassin line of thinking. So if she can't do them, what is her purpose? She's not really doing the politics thing Sansa is either.I think she'll be dead in the end but before that she has to do something that effects the major plot. I don't know what that is though. Fighting the Others doesn't cut it since Dany, Jon, and presumable Tyrion will all have done major things on top of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 And I am saying if they want Arya to be in a relationship on the show, they will make it work, regardless of ages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 I don't think her arc is leaning towards marriage. Her latest behavior is similar to that of a rogue. I can see her continuing no strings attached behavior. It's true that male counterparts have been married like Daemon Targaeryen but he likely had no business being married. Neither did Robert although I wouldn't call him a rogue but he's one who'd rather be on adventures.Then you have others like Aurane Waters who is not married. For Arya that song is often quoted but the lady in the song did not want to be married. The lord did. He wanted to be her lord and she said no to that. You can be my forest love so her lover not her husband. She likes to hang around shady types and obviously their habits will rub off on her. Children learn by adults' examples and she's not around people like her parents anymore and that relationship ended tragically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Oh, and another thing is that in the original outline I don't see room for the child soldier inspiration in her arc. She seems to go North with Cat so no being a hostage for two books. That's important if GRRM is looking up statistics on child soldiers and plans to have Arya reflect that in her story. Most of them don't end up in a happy married life or love life. They stay with that lifestyle. He said kids become dangerous and killing becomes like a game. Obviously Arya is supposed to get darker than she is now because I don't think killing is quite a game to her yet but she's almost there. The original Arya killed but I think it was wildlings and Others and that's after she had been threatened. She didn't murder. I don't think a murderous girl is unlovable or anything but given what he is inspired by I'm skeptical about what he'd end her story with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaNymeriaVisenya Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 That doesn't add up to her vehemence to Ned Dayne about her father only ever having loved one woman. That is idealistic, even after all she saw, it was romantic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaNymeriaVisenya Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 That doesn't add up to her vehemence to Ned Dayne about her father only ever having loved one woman. That is idealistic, even after all she saw, it was romantic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 That doesn't add up to her vehemence to Ned Dayne about her father only ever having loved one woman. That is idealistic, even after all she saw, it was romantic. But would her father behave as she did in the Mercy chapter? No. What she holds him up to doesn't account for what she is willing to do. He also revised that chapter to account for how young she is without the gap. Maybe she was more skilled or maybe it was even more sexual. ETA: Plus, she is far more similar to Brandon after all. She isn't like Ned very much at all. Oh, and since she believes that Jon is Ned's she doesn't actually think Ned was only with her mother and Ned Dayne didn't say that Ned loved Jon's mother (he said Ned loved Ashara) so she has reason to believe her father was capable of touching someone without having an emotional attachment to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 This is the major thing that is destroyed by ASOIAF. Some people simply love each other in a non sexual way and, I know that is shocking but, not everyone what to have sex with their siblings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllOfTheHours Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 I don't think her arc is leaning towards marriage. Her latest behavior is similar to that of a rogue. I can see her continuing no strings attached behavior. It's true that male counterparts have been married like Daemon Targaeryen but he likely had no business being married. Neither did Robert although I wouldn't call him a rogue but he's one who'd rather be on adventures.Then you have others like Aurane Waters who is not married. For Arya that song is often quoted but the lady in the song did not want to be married. The lord did. He wanted to be her lord and she said no to that. You can be my forest love so her lover not her husband. She likes to hang around shady types and obviously their habits will rub off on her. Children learn by adults' examples and she's not around people like her parents anymore and that relationship ended tragically. Oh, and another thing is that in the original outline I don't see room for the child soldier inspiration in her arc. She seems to go North with Cat so no being a hostage for two books. That's important if GRRM is looking up statistics on child soldiers and plans to have Arya reflect that in her story. Most of them don't end up in a happy married life or love life. They stay with that lifestyle. He said kids become dangerous and killing becomes like a game. Obviously Arya is supposed to get darker than she is now because I don't think killing is quite a game to her yet but she's almost there. The original Arya killed but I think it was wildlings and Others and that's after she had been threatened. She didn't murder. I don't think a murderous girl is unlovable or anything but given what he is inspired by I'm skeptical about what he'd end her story with. I agree with this completely. I think if Arya's plot had taken her to the Wall and Jon per the outline, her character would be very different. She would have been allowed to fight the Others, but still have been able to rely on Jon and not face the world alone. But I just can't see the Arya from ADwD and WoW preview throwing away her sword and deciding to be Lady of Winterfell with Jon. At least not the vision of domestic bliss that Jon secretly longs for. Although I'm sure Jon would always respect her and encourage her freedom (unlike other possible lordly husbands), as a Lady or a Queen, Arya would have to follow certain Westerosi customs and focus her life on birthing/raising children, managing the household, and being "ladylike" to her knights and servants. I think she will/may help rebuild and protect Winterfell with her siblings, but with her assassin training as a warrior/knight (kind of like Brienne?) rather than a bride. I think, in the end, we are actually debating on the same side using different evidence. My argument simply being that I don't think her "arc is leaning towards marriage" either. She doesn't want to be a lady because of what that means in a patriarchal society like Westeros (but that doesn't preclude romance of any sort). Although I can see the ground work GRRM laid out in the outline for J/A, her actual plot in ASoIAF has driven her to become another character (by not going to the Wall among other things). So the idea of Arya marrying a lord/king and becoming his lady/queen would be antithetical to her character (unless she changes her mind about a lot of the core beliefs she has had since GoT). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaNymeriaVisenya Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 This is the major thing that is destroyed by ASOIAF. Some people simply love each other in a non sexual way and, I know that is shocking but, not everyone what to have sex with their siblings. Its not that, no one would be talking about it if the clues weren't there and the outline hadn't make them unignorable Oh, and another thing is that in the original outline I don't see room for the child soldier inspiration in her arc. She seems to go North with Cat so no being a hostage for two books. That's important if GRRM is looking up statistics on child soldiers and plans to have Arya reflect that in her story. Most of them don't end up in a happy married life or love life. They stay with that lifestyle. He said kids become dangerous and killing becomes like a game. Obviously Arya is supposed to get darker than she is now because I don't think killing is quite a game to her yet but she's almost there. The original Arya killed but I think it was wildlings and Others and that's after she had been threatened. She didn't murder. I don't think a murderous girl is unlovable or anything but given what he is inspired by I'm skeptical about what he'd end her story with. She's the captive of Mance Rayder in the outline. . But would her father behave as she did in the Mercy chapter? No. What she holds him up to doesn't account for what she is willing to do. He also revised that chapter to account for how young she is without the gap. Maybe she was more skilled or maybe it was even more sexual. ETA: Plus, she is far more similar to Brandon after all. She isn't like Ned very much at all. Oh, and since she believes that Jon is Ned's she doesn't actually think Ned was only with her mother and Ned Dayne didn't say that Ned loved Jon's mother (he said Ned loved Ashara) so she has reason to believe her father was capable of touching someone without having an emotional attachment to them. As Gendry points out, where did Ned find Jon, the cabbage patch? Arya does not contemplate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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