A+J=T v. 3

[Mithras]

On "Planetos", the world at large believes you have to have Targaryen/Valyrian blood to be a dragonrider. Whether readers agree or disagree that Nettles may have had Targaryen blood, the maesters have catalogued her as Targaryen offshoot - in a book written during Robert's reign, no less. So, either the maesters had sufficient evidence to come to this conclusion (in which case, the idea that Valyrian blood is necessary stands as there is not a single example to counter it) or they considered it to be self-evident (a dragonrider would have Targ blood, by definition).

Ran said that the reason why Nettles is passed as dragonseed is because she succeeded in riding a dragon. Yandel's source in this is Gyldayn and he assumed that she must be a seed because she rode a dragon. And this is true for not only Nettles but also all the other dragonseeds. Unlike what some people think in this thread, Gyldayn didnot have the lineages of the dragonseeds (maybe except Alyn/Addam) and the only reason he needed to tag them as dragonseeds was that they succeeded in riding dragons. Even though Ran seems to believe that dragonlord blood is necessary to ride a dragon, he also added that this is circular logic and cannot be taken as conclusive proof.

[Jô Maltese]

Snip

Thanks for taking the time to write these. I have to say that most of your cons your were discussed and countered in this thread, on top of my head:

- It's the amount of those non-conclusive factors that support the theory, not their individual solidity.

- No son of mine sounds more genetical than not my son (social)

- Tyrion amongst dragons, let's quote myself : :)

"Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

We should separate what Moqorro sees in the flames from what he is meant to see :

- He sees six dragons, i.e beasts, that appear to him with the characteristics he describes (old, young etc.) and he sees Tyrion, i.e. the (small) man, in the middle of them, strangely snarling and casting a big shadow (suggesting dragon traits).

- What he is meant to see is unclear for him (as it is for us), but it would make sense if he saw 7 dragons. Indeed, Tyrion is the only character he has met for real (unlike Dany, Jon, Aegon, Aemon etc.) therefore there is a chance that this is why he does not see a 7th beast but the real dragon (Tyrion) without realising it. This is very similar to Mel seeing Jon in her flames and not understanding why, but only after she has met him.

- As for Tywin relationship with Tyrion, I think the key might be in the fact on which everybody agrees: Tywin loved his Joanna. This could imply that whatever he suspected or knew the unforgiving Tywin could actually forgive Joanna anything and could place her public honour above any other consideration, hence not giving ground to rumours by reacting as a cheated husband... And the price to pay for that was to carry on acknowledging Tyrion as his son, but not necessarily considering him as such?

[Mithras]

That's hardly an "error" in the theory. This is one of the main reasons Cersei/Jaime as bastards or Aerys theory used to be quite popular. And Tyrion's fascination goes way further as it is primarily dragons he is interested in, and has been for a very long time. As evidenced not only by his request to uncle Tygett (or was it Gerion) to get his own dragon, but also by the way he read up on them. Cersei never displayed this level of interest; only the burning of the tower of the hand roused her.

Lol and what happened to the more popular theory? It was debunked. So, the fascination with fire cannot be taken as a proof of someone's Targness.

And please, Tyrion's wishes to have a dragon of his own were no different than a normal kid wanting a star destroyer.

[Jô Maltese]

On "Planetos", the world at large believes you have to have Targaryen/Valyrian blood to be a dragonrider. Whether readers agree or disagree that Nettles may have had Targaryen blood, the maesters have catalogued her as Targaryen offshoot - in a book written during Robert's reign, no less. So, either the maesters had sufficient evidence to come to this conclusion (in which case, the idea that Valyrian blood is necessary stands as there is not a single example to counter it) or they considered it to be self-evident (a dragonrider would have Targ blood, by definition).

Regardless which of those two possibilities is the case, questions are going to be asked the very moment Tyrion climbs on Viserion's back. Riding a dragon and the blood are not going to be separated. If Tyrion indeed becomes a dragonrider, those little hints at Joanna will come up again. Since Dany firmly believes Targaryen blood is special (probably with good reason, in the same way as wargs like the Starks get the ability through the "right" blood), she will be more motivated than most to search for a Targaryen ancestor for Tyrion (not found in the official Lannister line, apparently) and the closer the better.

In the books, Barristan could be a vessel for information about rumours (or maybe more than rumours) between Joanna and Aerys. In the show, Varys could fulfill that role.

Exactly - and this is exactly why I sometimes think we may never know the truth about Tyrion's parentage.

[Wouter]

Lol and what happened to the more popular theory? It was debunked. So, the fascination with fire cannot be taken as a proof of someone's Targness.

And please, Tyrion's wishes to have a dragon of his own were no different than a normal kid wanting a star destroyer.

I can and will take Tyrion's fascination with dragons (not just fire, which you failed to acknowledge in your answer) as evidence that he may be a Targaryen. That Cersei loved to see the Tower of the Hand burn was and is not an 100% "fireproof" hard guarantee that she would turn out to be a Targaryen, and neither is Tyrion's love for dragons, by itself. However, it was good enough to set many people (including a lot who hate the Tyrion theory) thinking about Cersei and by extension about Jaime. It's certainly not an "error" in the opening post.

Tyrion's level of infatuation with dragons is unique for the series. We aren't shown it in Arya, Bran, Tommen,...

Playing this down is what I would call an "error".

[Wouter]

Ran said that the reason why Nettles is passed as dragonseed is because she succeeded in riding a dragon. Yandel's source in this is Gyldayn and he assumed that she must be a seed because she rode a dragon. And this is true for not only Nettles but also all the other dragonseeds.

So, what will happen if/when Tyrion rides Viserion? He succeeded in riding a dragon, hence he is a dragonseed - the maesters will believe this, Dany will believe this, most people will believe it. And then the question will be, where did Tyrion got this dragonblood that he must have, because he is (now) a dragonseed by definition? The World Book missed the chance to give an obvious ancestor with Targaryen blood, but it did again point to Aerys' interest in Joanna. Now, what would people think is the most likely source of dragonblood for dragonseed Tyrion? Still think those rumours about Joanna and Aerys are there for nothing?

If Tyrion does ride a dragon - and IMO everything points to that - then this theory will be relevant. Even if it may remain ambivalent for a while whether or not Targaryen blood is absolutely necessary. There is an SSM that implies blood with the right magical properties is needed.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Lol and what happened to the more popular theory? It was debunked. So, the fascination with fire cannot be taken as a proof of someone's Targness.

And please, Tyrion's wishes to have a dragon of his own were no different than a normal kid wanting a star destroyer.

I was quite content with my Millennium Falcon.

[Marcel]

If Joanna Lannister had a prior relationship with Aerys, and there is evidence for this to be credible, it is reasonable to assume that after Rhaella dismissed her from the court, Tywin has married her to preserve her honor. This is all the more likely if Tywin really loved her, which seems a certain fact. Now, there is an interval of three years between the marriage of Tywin and Joanna and the birth of Cercei and Jaime. If Tywin could not have children, maybe Joanna had gotten pregnant from Aerys to give Tywin the heirs he wished so much. Both Cercei and Jaime inherited the physical traits of the Lannister, but the personality traits of Aerys. I do not know if Tywin was or was not aware that Joanna had betrayed him, it is possible that he knew, but, in any case, in appearance Cercei and Jaime were legitimate Lannisters and had inherited the family blood from their mother. Any trace of Aerys's character which could manifest in both could be supressed through a rigorous education. In the case of Tyrion, however, none of this applies. Tyrion would have the physical traits of the Targaryen and Tywin never recognized in his youngest son Joanna's personality or political sagacity. Each character flaw that Tyrion had presented would be, in Tywin's eyes, a reminder of Aerys Targaryen. There was no reason for Tyrion, because Tywin already had Jaime as a heir. But, more importantly, Tyrion represents the certainty of Joanna's betrayal and proof that her feelings for him were not as strong as his feelings for her. This could explain part of Tywin's bitterness and why he never developed any other relationship with a woman after Joanna's death.

[Lord Varys]

If dragonlord blood was not necessary for riding dragons George had every opportunity to give us very big clues that this was not the case in TWoIaF. Nobody prevented him from making a, say, Mossovy fishermen with no Valyrian blood whatsoever a dragonrider during the time the Targaryen had dragons (either during the Dance or as daring 'stealer of dragons' or something like that). Hell, George could even have made it a whole plot point that Targaryen blood was nothing special by having them lose many of their dragons to rebels and traitors who claimed them in their stead (beginning with, say, the servants feeding the dragons realizing that their could ride them, too).

Sure, there could be other ways to subdue dragons - skinchanging would be a very good possibility, although it is interesting that there were apparently no Children of the Forest or skinchanging First Men ever bonding with dragons in Westeros (that may be a hint that it was either not possible, or much more difficult/dangerous than one might think) - but as long as they are neither not explored nor hinted at I see no reason to dismiss Yandel or Gyldayn (or the dragonlord tradition, embodied in the knowledge the Targaryens and Velaryons carried through the ages) on the topic.

Dragonbinder could provide another possibility, but we don't yet know if this horn works with 'normal blood'. If this was the case the rules could change somewhat, if not, then it will turn out to be fit into the established rules, I imagine.

[Wouter]

If dragonlord blood was not necessary for riding dragons George had every opportunity to give us very big clues that this was not the case in TWoIaF. Nobody prevented him from making a, say, Mossovy fishermen with no Valyrian blood whatsoever a dragonrider during the time the Targaryen had dragons (either during the Dance or as daring 'stealer of dragons' or something like that). Hell, George could even have made it a whole plot point that Targaryen blood was nothing special by having them lose many of their dragons to rebels and traitors who claimed them in their stead (beginning with, say, the servants feeding the dragons realizing that their could ride them, too).

Sure, there could be other ways to subdue dragons - skinchanging would be a very good possibility, although it is interesting that there were apparently no Children of the Forest or skinchanging First Men ever bonding with dragons in Westeros (that may be a hint that it was either not possible, or much more difficult/dangerous than one might think) - but as long as they are neither not explored nor hinted at I see no reason to dismiss Yandel or Gyldayn (or the dragonlord tradition, embodied in the knowledge the Targaryens and Velaryons carried through the ages) on the topic.

Dragonbinder could provide another possibility, but we don't yet know if this horn works with 'normal blood'. If this was the case the rules could change somewhat, if not, then it will turn out to be fit into the established rules, I imagine.

Excellent points.

It's possible Nettles was herself a shadowbinder or a hidden child of the Forest (and skinchanger), but we know Tyrion doesn't seem to have those properties.

And feeding the dragons is enough, Jhiqui and Irri would be the main candidates to be dragonrider. For some reason, they are not very popular suggestions on the board though. What does Nettles have that they have not?

[Angalin]

Closing for length.