The Hierarchy of the Others

[Blazfemur]

the debate can go on forever, i wouldnt be surprised if there is a more "proper" name for this race and force, than "Other." im sure they consider themselves an actual title or being, rather than "etc." When we get the backstory on them, and their motives, finally, maybe we'll know their real name.

im all-in for just, "First Men."

[Voice]

Are they though? I think specifically the show MORESO went into the two different kinds [without saying such], those that were born Other, and those that were MADE (remember, we still havent witnessed the "making" of an Other in the book, other than what Craster's daughter implied)

While it's wrong of me to imply, and well done Voice Of The First Men for finally putting this out there, you know we agree on a lot of the same ideas, there are in fact 2 different kinds of Others, and we have two names for them.

Indeed we do agree much Ser, glad you chimed in! The show did indeed add to my theory here, but I think the written evidence is sufficient. The mere fact that Dragonglass and Dragonsteel are two different things implies one kills my Ancient Others, while the other kills white walkers...

Anyway, great points all Blaz, but I want to add to some:

Would it be "wrong" to label one as Other, and the other as White Walker? (i.e. those that were born, those that were made)

it's not like those that were made Other could have access to that ancient crackly grim language they speak. If the power of Other can be transferred to child, if it were transferred to adult, theyd still speak common tongue id think. Or, maybe not, who knows.

Babies brought up Other, would learn the old tongue as well as any baby would learn to speak, growing up.

Indeed! This, as well as other points you raise, are strongly supported by GRRM's letter:

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."

Interesting sidebar, and all these threads are the same when it comes down to it so i dont know if i mentioned it to any of you specifically in other threads: regarding the 13 in black. In my mind, that leader was TNK/TLH, his 12 companions, in black. Those 13, are sworn to the oath. They are a sect. Not all Others are sworn to it, but they MAY be. This is further bolstered by the whole:

They take Craster's babies, they father

none.

They take only the boys, so there are no girls to wive

They are on the move, nomadic, and there are no designated lands beyond the wall, so technically they roam and hold no lands.

Regardless. Things start to come together, however, a lot of it is based on what we SAW, and not what we READ (i acknowledge that).

Indeed, they not only come toegether, they reflect one another. Like two sets of brothers, looking at their reflections in a 700ft tall Mirror, made of Ice.

Most of the time, only black ravens fill the sky. But, when the change of a season is upon us, white ravens are sent forth. The two don't exactly get along back at the rookery either :cool4:

In the separation of sects, yeah i agree, ancient Others (ice/glass armor, ancient tongue), made Others (craster's babies, all male), wights. Thus far, in the book it would be unfair to categorize them as ALL male

(though i do, wont get into it here, im a believer in 'there's no such thing as a female Other,' and TNQ was a NW lie to exile TNK/TLH, to me it's a technicality waiting to be validated)

, however on the show itself, we've only SEEN (so far), male Others. In black garb, or in regular garb. And males being taken. it's a case of, lack of evidence verifying evidence for me, and a gamble.

:cheers: And I agree, we've never seen a female Other or white walker, but we have seen a female wight... Remember Thistle?

And, rather than detract from the story of Night's King, and his exile, I think the pale woman adds a needed layer of intrigue. It may well turn out to be a smear campaign though. Either story makes sense to me, honestly, as I believe he was Bran the Builder by day :devil: Bran IV, Chapter 56, ASOS:

“Some say he was a Bolton,” Old Nan would always end. “Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.” She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. “He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room.”

[...]

Night’s King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule.

Only a man by light of day... I go a step further, and offer the hypothesis that he was a hero by light of day, named Stark. And the deeds he did by night at the Nightfort are what fostered talk and rumor of some Night's King. I think it is a tale of split personality disorder... But, the split eventually became a permanent shift to the Night's King identity.

and finally, i wouldnt be me if i didnt didnt mention Fomas from TWOIAF, whose idea that the original Others were nothing mroe than First Men who ventured north and obtained the power. There is merit here, though, since we've witnessed transference of Other from TNK to baby. Why wouldnt First Men be able to seize that power? This of course, would support that Others ARENT a separate race of beings, just humans that had sought and obtained power.

Indeed, but it isn't just the show, there is also some merit in the text:

“Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities."

This is clearly a band of First Men who ventured north to obtain power. And, it is my contention, that their goal/destination was none other than Winterfell. Remember that in those days, the lands of Winterfell would have been lost and considered part of what Old Nan describes as the "dead lands." I think the price they had to pay was either not paid, or paid, and that in doing so, they became consistent with GRRM's email to Tommy Patterson: 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.” (I must credit Black Crow with always having this quote handy).

[LmL]

"The Night's King was only a man by the light of day, but the night was his to rule" could also indicate that he was transformed from a regular man into the Nights King at the beginning of the Long Night. I for one think it very possible that the NK reigned DURING, not after, the LN.

[LmL]

I like the whole black raven / white raven analogy to the black brothers and this potential sect of ancient Others. Consider that in the prologue, the Others or WW watching the fight are twice reffered to as "the watchers." Which mirrors the Nights Watch vows, of course.

[Voice]

I've been thinking about Ice Dragons recently.. There's so much about them in the Worldbook that I now think they are a real thing. They supposedly turn to water, or melt, when they are killed - so they are literally ice made flesh, perhaps an equivalent to fire made flesh. Dragons however seem more like real animals than Ice Dragons, so I'm not sure. But then we have the Shadowbinders... They alone go to the heart of the shadow. They cannot expose themselves to sunlight, it seems, because they wear masks or stay in Asshai. Mel seems to have a long life span, she doesn't eat or sleep, etc. Perhaps these are more equal to WW than Ancient Others, humans turned to fire beings. Fire wights like Beric seem equal to cold wights, although clearly Coldhands shows us there are two different kinds of cold wights. Coldhands is like Beric, so perhaps there's a zombie fire wight yet to be seen. There also might not be exact equals on each side.. But I hear what you're saying about the Others in the prologue having armor and culture, etc. So you're saying those were the real deal, Ancient Others, in the prologue?

Not exactly. I'm saying we've yet to see Ancient Others in the texts. We've only heard tales of them.

But yes, Mel is more like a white walker (like our prologue fellows). And Beric and Lady Stoneheart are much more analogous to Coldhands, than they are typical wights, who cannot speak.

Our cold wights seem to demonstrate a hive-mind consciousness, and seem to act on orders by remote control. Case in point would be the wights hiding outside Bloodraven's cave, and the recently wighted Ser Waymar, attacking at the precise moment they would be most effective. This is also true of Othor and Jafer, who only attack once most of Castle Black has gone to sleep.

Back to white walkers... It has been suggested in Heresy that white walkers are actually made of frozen air. As oxygen is frozen, it takes on a very characteristic blue-color. It would also explain the vapor Ser Puddles emitted, and the extreme cold exhibited by the dagger after Samwell punctured the spell holding him together.

This makes sense. I hesitate to conclude to much from "Neverborn," but it is interesting.

It should also be noted that white walkers were called "neverborn" in early drafts of A Game of Thrones....

Yes, I was trying to agree with you on all of that. I agree it points to a third type which is resistant to obsidian, or else there wouldn't be that much of a threat.

:cheers:

So to recap: we have fire for the wights, dragonglass for the white walkers, and dragonsteel for the true/ancient/original Others...

I think George is secretly enjoying baiting everyone with the Others thing, like every time he hears someone poo-poo the Others, saying they're never actually coming, he just chuckles to himself and thinks, "you just wait till the REAL Others start climbing the Wall on backs of giant Ice Spiders, just like Old Nan said." And then he unleashes is best evil villain laugh. MUAH HA HA HA

Hell-fucking-yes! Exactly! People jump to that conclusion because we've only seen them twice in five books. To which I reply, during the entirety of those five books, winter was coming. It has only just arrived :devil:

I agree it does support your premise. I do think Dany's importance has grown since the letter was written, perhaps.

It does seem so, though while her character has grown, it has also been much delayed. She was supposed to arrive in the second book, originally titled A Dance with Dragons.... now we've read the second, third, fourth, and even the fifth which bore that title, and still, she hasn't returned.

At the end of Dance, though, she seems to finally be ready for "Fire and Blood." And, unless I'm completely off-base, the khalasar will bow to their once, and now, again, khaleesi feasting on roasted horse with her big black dragon.

fAegon will be the "Targaryen" homecoming king. Dany, once she arrives, will be regarded as a conqueror riding a dragon, leading a Dothraki horde. It's gonna be awesome LOL, until she contracts greyscale and her dragons turn to stone...

I've got a pretty fancy explanation for dragonsteel, coming in Part 3 of my astronomy thingamajig. We have seen it on the page, but we just didn't know it.

Cool. I have a hunch we have as well, but I have a feeling you'll have a new take on it.

[Voice]

I'm wondering if maybe their doesn't need to be a distinction between White Walkers and Others here. Sure, the Others we have seen don't ride ice spiders and we are all waiting for those to turn up, but just because human foot soldiers don't ride horses like knights, doesn't make them a different type of human. In the same since we may not have seen the uber-elite spider riding Others, and in this sense, yes I see a hierarchy, but I don't think that demonstrates that they are a different type of Other that can't be harmed with obsidian weapons. (Note, I'm not saying it means they couldn't be. I am saying it doesn't demonstrate that they are.)

Totally get where you're coming from. I tend to think they are two different forms of inhuman "life." But it is for reasons you bring up that I named this topic a "Hierarchy" rather than a "Taxonomy." I think the 1993 letter supports the idea that GRRM's "neverborn" white walkers are made by the Others, and so, in that vein, they would not be Others-proper themselves, but their underlings (both in terms of physical composition and organizational hierarchy).

[Voice]

"The Night's King was only a man by the light of day, but the night was his to rule" could also indicate that he was transformed from a regular man into the Nights King at the beginning of the Long Night. I for one think it very possible that the NK reigned DURING, not after, the LN.

This is exactly what I'm thinking, or rather, his 13 year reign was one of both organizational and physical transformation for him. He changed from being a man by day to the king of night itself. This is what I was hinting at in my posts over on your thread. He rose with the Sun as a hero by day, but entered the underworld by night (quite literally if the tale of his Pale Woman/Queen are true). As he rose with the sun he was a hero. The Last Hero (of 12...twelve houses of heaven, constellations of the ecliptic, etc). As he became visible on the other horizon though, and ushered in the darkness, he was a villain.

It is my theory that he militarized both the Night's Watch, and the Others, during his 13 year reign as Lord Commander (of both darkness and light). Many dictators take advantage of the political landscape this same way....

I like the whole black raven / white raven analogy to the black brothers and this potential sect of ancient Others. Consider that in the prologue, the Others or WW watching the fight are twice reffered to as "the watchers." Which mirrors the Nights Watch vows, of course.

Big time. And as Blazfemur points out, their habits seem to be in truer accord to the vows of the Night's Watch than our black crows upon the Wall...

[The Man from Nowhere]

Tier 1 - Stannis

Tier 2 - King Other

Tier 3 - Worker Others

Tier 4 - Walking Dead

Tier 5 - Everyone Else

[LmL]

This is exactly what I'm thinking, or rather, his 13 year reign was one of both organizational and physical transformation for him. He changed from being a man by day to the king of night itself. This is what I was hinting at in my posts over on your thread. He rose with the Sun as a hero by day, but entered the underworld by night (quite literally if the tale of his Pale Woman/Queen are true). As he rose with the sun he was a hero. The Last Hero (of 12...twelve houses of heaven, constellations of the ecliptic, etc). As he became visible on the other horizon though, and ushered in the darkness, he was a villain.

It is my theory that he militarized both the Night's Watch, and the Others, during his 13 year reign as Lord Commander (of both darkness and light). Many dictators take advantage of the political landscape this same way....

Big time. And as Blazfemur points out, their habits seem to be in truer accord to the vows of the Night's Watch than our black crows upon the Wall...

What if he was the bad guy at first, using fire Magic (dark fire magic according to my theory) - i.e. Azor Ahai = the Bloodstone E, and was actually restoring some measure of harmony / atonement as the Nights King? Since the Others are luminescent, it matches my idea about a dark fire Azor Ahai / Bloodstone E.

[Blazfemur]

The mere fact that Dragonglass and Dragonsteel are two different things implies one kills my Ancient Others, while the other kills white walkers... I certainly one's effectiveness over the other just yet though, again circumstance hasnt allowed opportunity yet. But yes, they are different

Indeed! This, as well as other points you raise, are strongly supported by GRRM's letter:

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." I think we just found our name that we should call them, then. Others, & the Neverborn, those that are born Other, and those that were never born as Other, but Turned, no? Craster's babies, and such, are Neverborn.

Indeed, they not only come toegether, they reflect one another. Like two sets of brothers, looking at their reflections in a 700ft tall Mirror, made of Ice. I used to think it's existence a blasphemy, why divide the realms? However if it was taken, we don't know it's true original purpose (this is, of course, if the theory of Others building/creating the wall is accurate, which i think it is)

Most of the time, only black ravens fill the sky. But, when the change of a season is upon us, white ravens are sent forth. The two don't exactly get along back at the rookery either :cool4: The White Ravens, are the true omens, and not dark wings, dark words. The White Raven signifies the arrival :)

:cheers: And I agree, we've never seen a female Other or white walker, but we have seen a female wight... Remember Thistle? Oh no of course, anyone can be a wight, I certainly acknowledge that.

And, rather than detract from the story of Night's King, and his exile, I think the pale woman adds a needed layer of intrigue. It may well turn out to be a smear campaign though. Either story makes sense to me, honestly, as I believe he was Bran the Builder by day :devil: Bran IV, Chapter 56, ASOS:

“Some say he was a Bolton,” Old Nan would always end. “Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.” She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. “He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room.”

[...]

Night’s King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule.

Only a man by light of day... I go a step further, and offer the hypothesis that he was a hero by light of day, named Stark. And the deeds he did by night at the Nightfort are what fostered talk and rumor of some Night's King. I think it is a tale of split personality disorder... But, the split eventually became a permanent shift to the Night's King identity.

Indeed, but it isn't just the show, there is also some merit in the text:

“Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities."

This is clearly a band of First Men who ventured north to obtain power. And, it is my contention, that their goal/destination was none other than Winterfell. Remember that in those days, the lands of Winterfell would have been lost and considered part of what Old Nan describes as the "dead lands." I think the price they had to pay was either not paid, or paid, and that in doing so, they became consistent with GRRM's email to Tommy Patterson: 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.” (I must credit Black Crow with always having this quote handy).

I'll bold my responses within your text

in response to the rest, i think it's interesting of note, in the wiki:

The Barrow Kings claimed descent from the First King of the First Men, who is said to be buried at Great Barrow at Barrowton.^[1][2] Singers claim the Barrow Kings fought against the Kings of Winter, the Starks of Winterfell north of the barrowlands, in the Thousand Years War, but runes of the First Men indicates the conflict lasted about two hundred years. When the last Barrow King submitted to Winterfell, the Stark king received his daughter in marriage.

(Could this daughter be a Lady Dustin, and could this Lady Dustin, have been considered the Queen, with Bran The Builder Stark, 13th Lord Commander, and Night's King, the Stark King that won her? Or, perhaps there was a triangle, between The Lady Dustin, The Night's King, and The King Of Winter that drove him away? Could that be the scene Bran sees with the guy getting his throat slit by the pale woman with bronze sickle?)

The Dustins of Barrowton claim descent from the First King and the Barrow Kings.^[1]

Maester Kennet's Passages of the Dead mentions a curse was supposedly placed on the Great Barrow, weakening and making corpselike any living man who dared to equal the First King. Some maesters think the corpse queen of the Night's King may have actually been a daughter of a Barrow King, as they were often connected with graves.^[1]

[Blazfemur]

I need to re-read reek's chapter when lady dustin descends to winterfell's crypts... take note of her reactions. not that SHE's TNQ, but aybe there's some, unwritten history they know, or, more importantly, history that was written down and DESTROYED

[LmL]

Barrow King = First King of First Men = Garth the Green

[Voice]

Tier 1 - Stannis

Tier 2 - King Other

Tier 3 - Worker Others

Tier 4 - Walking Dead

Tier 5 - Everyone Else

LOL! ...at least...I think that was a joke... hard to tell on these boards sometimes ;)

Stannis does provide a great parallel for Night's King though....he has a witchy woman that he sleeps with to create shadows... and he's taken the Nightfort as his seat. He has an honorable persona by day, then in the shadows, he's up to strange sorcery.

[Blazfemur]

i can believe a man falling in love with a human woman. in fact, if she was to be identified as a dustin, and descended from a barrow king, that would explain the monicker of "corpse queen," i.e. sansa would be wolf-queen, cersei a lion-queen, daenerys is the mad dragon queen. it would make more sense, to humanize, the "queen," and would still satisfy my beliefs that there's no such thing as a female Other.

[Voice]

What if he was the bad guy at first, using fire Magic (dark fire magic according to my theory) - i.e. Azor Ahai = the Bloodstone E, and was actually restoring some measure of harmony / atonement as the Nights King? Since the Others are luminescent, it matches my idea about a dark fire Azor Ahai / Bloodstone E.

Entirely possible. But that begs the question, which came first? darkness or light? night or day? evil or good? I tend to think of them as two sides of the same coin, one cannot exist without the other. An unending duality, rather than one giving rise to the Other ;)

[Blazfemur]

p.s.:

House Dustin: Neither their arms or their words appear in the text. According to semi-canon sources they blazon their shield as two rusted longaxes with black shafts crossed, a black crown between their points

a black crown?? meaning what exactly?!?!

[Voice]

Real life calls, but I'll respond to the Others when I'm back...

[LmL]

Entirely possible. But that begs the question, which came first? darkness or light? night or day? evil or good? I tend to think of them as two sides of the same coin, one cannot exist without the other. An unending duality, rather than one giving rise to the Other ;)

I was more referring to the specific arc of the Nights King, as opposed to light and dark generally speaking. The story of a Morningstar deity (Lucifer, Osiris) is they try to challenge God, rising high before falling and being resurrected as lord of the dead / lord of the underworld. That's what I was proposing - as the Bloodstone E, he rises high and challenges God ("cast down the true gods and worshipped a black stone that fell from the sky"), is brought low (the battle at Battle Isle), and finds redemption through sacrifice as the Nights King, sacrificing his soul and his seed to keep some sort of pact with the Others.

[Mother of Dragons]

Why do you think I'm going to get greyscale?

[Mother of Dragons]

Totally get where you're coming from. I tend to think they are two different forms of inhuman "life." But it is for reasons you bring up that I named this topic a "Hierarchy" rather than a "Taxonomy." I think the 1993 letter supports the idea that GRRM's "neverborn" white walkers are made by the Others, and so, in that vein, they would not be Others-proper themselves, but their underlings (both in terms of physical composition and organizational hierarchy).

There might be room for Linnaean classification yet, though. I don't know if it was here or Heresy, but a quote from Old Nan's story to Bran tells of The Others laying with humans and one of them had half human babies. I want to say halfling, but I'm sure they didn't produce anything that would be as cute as an ice hobbit. I used to read about fairies when I was a lot younger, so it's been awhile, but I'm sure there's a legend somewhere about human-fae offspring. My point being that a hybrid would be a new species and it would be funny to create a taxonomy about them when we know eeverything.