The Hierarchy of the Others

[Timm]

That damn episode of the show. As per my usual I will point out that that is not canon, and what's more I will again ask, and I'm sure not be answered, where are the WW's getting the power to resurrect the dead, and turn the babies into WW's, if they are not sacrificing anything? Does it not make more sense that they sacrifice the babies for the power to resurrect the dead? How many times have we heard only death can pay for life?

Since you raised it, it's possible that in that interpretation, the baby is being warged into.

Not saying it is, just that it could be.

[Voice]

That damn episode of the show. As per my usual I will point out that that is not canon,

Per your usual? I'm not sure if we've ever had this discussion before, but I'll jump in...

I agree the show is not a canonical source, by any stretch of the imagination.

and what's more I will again ask, and I'm sure not be answered, where are the WW's getting the power to resurrect the dead, and turn the babies into WW's, if they are not sacrificing anything?

Great question. Let me first answer it with a question:

What did Thoros of Myr sacrifice to give Beric Dondarrion life, again and again?

The answer is nothing.

While practitioners of blood magic like to spout off that mantra, "only death may pay for life," it isn't universal. Yet, all too frequently the fandom on these forums, such as yourself, tend to treat it as a universal truth in the series. It isn't.

Beyond that, as I'm sure Black Crow will assert, there is clear mention of white walkers collecting baby sacrifices, in text:

“The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.”

As we know, Craster was giving his sons to the wood. Craster claims to be right with the gods. Lord Commander Mormont states Craster serves crueller gods than do typical northmen. It all adds up to paint a picture in which white walkers are collecting Craster's sons to use as sacrifices.

Does it not make more sense that they sacrifice the babies for the power to resurrect the dead? How many times have we heard only death can pay for life?

Again, the blood magic mantra is not universal. And we've yet to see it's application in Northern events.

But, when it comes to the resurrection of wights, are not the dead themselves the sacrifice? Ser Waymar Royce seemed to be ritualistically sacrificed before Will's eyes. Could not Waymar's own blood have paid the price needed for his own wighthood?

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

We don´t know if they can be male or female. I remember the theory that the Night´s queen was a half other:

Mormont made no answer.

“At Winterfell one of the serving women told us stories,” Jon went on. “She used to say that there were wildlings who would lay with the Others to birth half-human children.”

Also Twoiaf gives another alternative:

The oldest of these tales concern the legendary Night’s King, the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch, who was alleged to have bedded a sorceress pale as a corpse and declared himself a king. For thirteen years the Night’s King and his “corpse queen” ruled together, before King of Winter, Brandon the Breaker, (in alliance, it is said, with the King-Beyond-the-Wall, Joramun) brought them down. Thereafter, he obliterated the Night’s King’s very name from memory. In the Citadel, the archmaesters largely dismiss these tales—though some allow that there may have been a Lord Commander who attempted to carve out a kingdom for himself in the earliest days of the Watch.

Some suggest that perhaps the corpse queen was a woman of the Barrowlands, a daughter of the Barrow King who was then a power in his own right, and oft associated with graves.

The rusted crown upon the arms of House Dustin derives from their claim that they are themselves descended from the First King and the Barrow Kings who ruled after him. The old tales recorded in Kennet’s

Passages of the Dead claim that a curse was placed on the Great Barrow that would allow no living man to rival the First King. This curse made these pretenders to the title grow corpselike in their appearance as it sucked away their vitality and life. This is no more than legend, to be sure, but that the Dustins share blood and descent from the Barrow Kings of old seems sure enough.

[Ned's Sword]

Yeah I'm not a fan of the show's interpretation at all to be honest, even though it does support my theory. I had this impression and stated it on the interwebs here long before Oathkeeper.

I know, there's enough evidence in text itself but imo the fact that it's on the show gives the theory much more weight since they're known for cutting off details and leaving things out.

Hopefully the Others will do something big in tWoW that we get to witness first hand through one of the pov characters and we finally get to 'meet' them.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Having now done a full and slower reread, I have to say I'm impressed. You make a very good case, and I'm inclined to consider this as very possible.

I'd drop the capitalization as a point though. Wight and white walker do not need to be capitalized to keep from being confused with other things. Others needs to be capitalized to set it apart from mentions of other others. Like a group of people off to the side would be the others to a POV character. You have to make a distinction, which I suspect is what GRRM's agent told him--because the term "others" is not capitalized in that letter.

In the past I've figured the ice spiders were baloney invented by later generations to make the story sound better, but from a military standpoint your theory actually works really well. The only other possibility I can think of for the ice spiders would be a race of giant spiders that have been wighted. I'm not a spider person, so I haven't really given this aspect much thought. ;)

I think "riding down on the winds of winter" could be just poetic language. At least I hope it is. If that's literal, things are going to get really spooky in the next book.

Another point that really hits home for me is that if dragonsteel turns out to be Valyrian steel, they'll think they have this all figured out, when they don't. Even with the shortage of Valyrian Steel, they'd have a good chance of winning the war (Gendry and Tobho can turn swords into a lot of daggers), unless the Others seriously outnumber the humans. It would be very GRRM to have them need something else that they haven't even looked for yet *cough* dragonbone *cough* in order to defeat a type of Other they haven't seen yet and may be thinking never existed.

[Voice]

We don´t know if they can be male or female. I remember the theory that the Night´s queen was a half other:

Also Twoiaf gives another alternative:

The oldest of these tales concern the legendary Night’s King, the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch, who was alleged to have bedded a sorceress pale as a corpse and declared himself a king. For thirteen years the Night’s King and his “corpse queen” ruled together, before King of Winter, Brandon the Breaker, (in alliance, it is said, with the King-Beyond-the-Wall, Joramun) brought them down. Thereafter, he obliterated the Night’s King’s very name from memory. In the Citadel, the archmaesters largely dismiss these tales—though some allow that there may have been a Lord Commander who attempted to carve out a kingdom for himself in the earliest days of the Watch.

Some suggest that perhaps the corpse queen was a woman of the Barrowlands, a daughter of the Barrow King who was then a power in his own right, and oft associated with graves.

The rusted crown upon the arms of House Dustin derives from their claim that they are themselves descended from the First King and the Barrow Kings who ruled after him. The old tales recorded in Kennet’s

Passages of the Dead claim that a curse was placed on the Great Barrow that would allow no living man to rival the First King. This curse made these pretenders to the title grow corpselike in their appearance as it sucked away their vitality and life. This is no more than legend, to be sure, but that the Dustins share blood and descent from the Barrow Kings of old seems sure enough.

Were you referring to Ancient Others or white walkers? I'd argue the latter are only male.

While canonical, twoiaf has literal errors and Maesters themselves are not the most reliable of narrators when it comes to the "higher mysteries." If Marwyn had written the world book, I'd be far more interested in it.

That being said, the pale woman may well have been afflicted with the curse laid upon the Barrow Kings.

What is also compelling in this regard is that the tales of Night's King make no mention as to what direction the pale woman was seen. She may well have been coming from the south. She could have simply been a priestess, like Melisandre. After all, Mel also consumed Stannis' essence, or soul, as she took his seed. He's not been looking particularly healthy as of late, and has been given the Night Fort as his seat.

[Dany's Golden Fleece]

I know the show is not canonical.

But there was

13 white walkers or others dressed in black for a reason.

There is far more about the WW that meets the eye for sure and I don't think the histories are completely accurate.

[Voice]

Having now done a full and slower reread, I have to say I'm impressed. You make a very good case, and I'm inclined to consider this as very possible.

:cheers:

I'd drop the capitalization as a point though. Wight and white walker do not need to be capitalized to keep from being confused with other things. Others needs to be capitalized to set it apart from mentions of other others. Like a group of people off to the side would be the others to a POV character. You have to make a distinction, which I suspect is what GRRM's agent told him--because the term "others" is not capitalized in that letter.

Perhaps it is only the linguist and Grammar Nazi in me, but the capitalization feels important. As a proper noun, with universal capitalization throughout the series, the Others seem etched into the subconscious (the way half-forgotten demons of legend should be):

• Robb was not impressed. “The Others take his eyes,” he swore. “He died well. Race you to the bridge?”

“The Others take both of you,” Ned muttered darkly.

“MY LORDS!” he shouted, his voice booming off the rafters. “Here is what I say to these two kings!” He spat. “Renly Baratheon is nothing to me, nor Stannis neither. Why should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in Highgarden or Dorne? What do they know of the Wall or the wolfswood or the barrows of the First Men? Even their gods are wrong. The Others take the Lannisters too, I’ve had a bellyful of them.” [spoken by the Greatjon]

Even southerners:

• “The Others take your mild snows,” Robert swore. “What will this place be like in winter? I shudder to think.”

“The Others take your pigeon,” the pushcart man said. [spoken to Arya in Flea Bottom]

“The Others take your honor!” Robert swore. “What did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon’s honor!”

“The Others take my wife,” Robert muttered sourly, but he started back the way they had come, his footsteps falling heavily.

This "curse" seems to evoke the Others of the Long Night, who would indeed come and take people, hunting them with their ice spiders. It seems to be uniquely Westerosi as well, which speaks to the severity with which the people of Westeros were traumatized by the Others.

The lowercase terms, wights and white walkers, seem to be slang inventions, used to differentiate the new 'others' the Ancient Others were creating out of thin air...or out of the slain...or out of the blood sacrifices of infants... The cold mists and cold winds are also used nearly synonymously with white walkers by wildlings.

In the past I've figured the ice spiders were baloney invented by later generations to make the story sound better, but from a military standpoint your theory actually works really well. The only other possibility I can think of for the ice spiders would be a race of giant spiders that have been wighted. I'm not a spider person, so I haven't really given this aspect much thought. ;)

I understand the sentiment ;) my wife is an extreme arachnophobe. But I find it unlikely GRRM would not want to tap into such a powerful and instinctual fear within people.

We also have a real world parallel. Though not technically "spiders" we do have these and these inhabiting hydrothermal vents on the ocean floor. The latter are appropriately named "spider crabs." If you really want to torture yourself, there is a video of the prior, lol. The vents emit water that exceeds 700 degrees Fahrenheit. I think GRRM has written us a version that thrives in cold (which the Yeti Crabs do as well, as they may be found beneath Antarctica).

I think "riding down on the winds of winter" could be just poetic language. At least I hope it is. If that's literal, things are going to get really spooky in the next book.

Old Nan's tale oozes spookiness. And remember, Winter has only just this instance begun, with the epilogue of ADWD. It stands to reason now that the season has finally arrived that we will see a more potent version of the Others.

It is my contention that the creation of 'wights' and 'white walkers' was necessary so that the Others could scout and harry warmer climes.

Another point that really hits home for me is that if dragonsteel turns out to be Valyrian steel, they'll think they have this all figured out, when they don't. Even with the shortage of Valyrian Steel, they'd have a good chance of winning the war (Gendry and Tobho can turn swords into a lot of daggers), unless the Others seriously outnumber the humans. It would be very GRRM to have them need something else that they haven't even looked for yet *cough* dragonbone *cough* in order to defeat a type of Other they haven't seen yet and may be thinking never existed.

Indeed! The jury is still out on dragonsteel. It may well be Valyrian Steel, or not. In Heresy, we've tossed around the idea that the black ripples found in Valyrian Steel blades are actually bits of dragonglass. This combination of fire, steel, and obsidian, would seem to be an effective weapon against the Others.

Regardless, it is something quite different than mere dragonglass. If glass is frozen, and dragonglass is "frozen fire" ...then perhaps steel is forged, and dragonsteel is "forged fire." I've never considered it before, but what better candidate is there for "forged fire" than dragonbone?

Such being the case would also explain why Dany is characterized as another "threat" to Westeros (among other things of course) in the 1993 letter. If she and her dragons are a threat, that, when vanquished, yields the very raw material necessary to defeat the Ancient Others, then we have a win-win situation, albeit slightly perilous. ;)

[Voice]

I know the show is not canonical.

But there was

13 white walkers or others dressed in black for a reason.

There is far more about the WW that meets the eye for sure and I don't think the histories are completely accurate.

Indeed. Not canonical but would seem to point toward a clear hierarchy. I'm of the mind LH=NK, but that's Lord Martin's thread lol

[Voice]

I know, there's enough evidence in text itself but imo the fact that it's on the show gives the theory much more weight since they're known for cutting off details and leaving things out.

Hopefully the Others will do something big in tWoW that we get to witness first hand through one of the pov characters and we finally get to 'meet' them.

Good point. That's true they are usually trimming down details, rather than adding them. But they are not innocent of the latter. Leaf's fireballs and Bloodraven's left eye are but a few examples :)

ETA, from Heresy:

Semi-related to the Other hierarchy, I came across some interesting tidbits today about the show's Night's King - comments from D&D on, of all things, a featurette about the show's costumes, plus some extra information from the recently released Season 4 blu rays:

___

"Executive producers Benioff and Weiss discussed the appearance of the White Walker leader in a Season 4 featurette - though they avoided referring to the character by name, simply using the pronouns He/Him:

Weiss: "We wanted to kind of evolve the White Walker look. He is of a group of almost ageless creatures."

Benioff: "It's an interesting mix between something frightening, obviously, but also regal, something aristocratic about him. We wanted a distinction from the other White Walkers that we've seen."

Weiss: "And we went back and forth for a long time, until we hit upon something that was, if anything, moving in a more human direction, while maintaining a generally horrific look."

According to the Season 4 Blu-ray commentary, a lot more material was actually filmed with this character in "Oathkeeper", but the production team then decided to cut it in order to keep his appearance brief and mysterious."

___

The fact that their NK is simultaneously meant to be both ageless, and yet 'more human' than the standard white walker would certainly fit in with the notions some of us have (okay, mostly just you and I) that the fellow at the end of Oathkeeper is the 13th Lord Commander. :devil:

What really stands out to me is the phrasing "almost ageless." This speaks to their antiquity, but suggests (as I have), that they are not indigenous, nor eternal. Rather, like weirwoods in terms of life expectancy, they simply will never die unless they are killed.

I think the hierarchy speaks for itself, and emerges from the text without this sort of help from the show, but it is nice to see nonetheless. It's funny how hard they are trying to not say "Night's King" yet "regal" and "aristocratic" seem to describe him ;)

[LmL]

Just read the OP, great job Voice of the First Men. I have a lot of thoughts, which I will hold back for now, but really quick, things I agree with:

The Others (ancient ones at least) are elementals. Neverborn. I think dragons are the same.

If Ancient Others could be killed with dragon glass, you're right that all they would need is archers. One hit kills, archers are even more effective than in real life on regular people.

Spiders climb walls. Yes. This is a thing. Ancient Others riding Ice Spiders towards the wall... The men of the watch watch them approach - nervous, but not really threatened... Until the spiders reach the wall and start climbing up without breaking stride. Now everyone is losing their shit, panicking, and people can't get to that lift fast enough. It's a total every man for himself. I would absolutely mess my trousers watching Others climb the wall riding Ice Spiders. Jesus. It's so horrific it has to be true.

The 93 letter contains more truth than I first thought. I think a lot of that stuff that seems like it was changed is actually still gonna happen. I'll leave it at that, but I think you're right to draw clues from it.

I agree Dragonsteel will be needed. That's in the next section of my theory... I'll PM you my specific thoughts on the Others when I am drafting that section. :)

[WeaselPie]

VotFM (and LmL) if I may

Dragonsteel could be from comets the same way Dawn is from a comet. If a comet-event/meteor shower was seen as thousand thousand dragons, you see what I mean.

I think Dawn is the dragonsteel sword of the Last Hero aka the original Ice.

[Voice]

Cheers Lucifer, glad you could stop by. I like the elementals idea, but I see Others differently...

Just read the OP, great job Voice of the First Men. I have a lot of thoughts, which I will hold back for now, but really quick, things I agree with:

The Others (ancient ones at least) are elementals. Neverborn. I think dragons are the same.

Dragons seem to literally be Fire made flesh, dangerous, difficult to control, and leave ashes in their wake. The Others share some of this, as they are dangerous and leave dead lands in their wake, but they are not merely Ice made flesh. Remember GRRM's description of inhuman Sidhe made of Ice. While inhuman, the Others do bear longswords, wear armour, have a mind for warcraft, ride mounts, employ packs of creatures to hunt with, and speak a verbal language. The same cannot be said of dragons.

Dragons seem completely elemental, indigenously "fire made flesh," the Others do not. They seem to be far more closely related to Men, if not formerly Men themselves.

To the letter, GRRM equates "Neverborn" with the cadet branch of "white walkers." I wish he would have used it for the elder branch, but alas, the author's word is canon. This neverborn concept likely speaks to the Craster's Sons theory. If this is the case, we have our Ancient Others harvesting sacrificed/abandoned "sons" and using them to somehow create their "neverborn" white walkers.

If Ancient Others could be killed with dragon glass, you're right that all they would need is archers. One hit kills, archers are even more effective than in real life on regular people.

Ah, but according to the annals at Castle Black, the Ancient Others could not stand against "dragonsteel," not our common obsidian dragonglass. Dragonglass is the bane of white walkers, but the elder branch seem to require something with a bit more mettle :)

But yes, once the Watch remembers its true enemy, and how to use obsidian arrowheads, white walkers suddenly become as threatening as ducks in a pond. Or, perhaps more aptly, white ravens in a rookery...

Spiders climb walls. Yes. This is a thing. Ancient Others riding Ice Spiders towards the wall... The men of the watch watch them approach - nervous, but not really threatened... Until the spiders reach the wall and start climbing up without breaking stride. Now everyone is losing their shit, panicking, and people can't get to that lift fast enough. It's a total every man for himself. I would absolutely mess my trousers watching Others climb the wall riding Ice Spiders. Jesus. It's so horrific it has to be true.

This is precisely how I envision the happy reunion :devil:

Now imagine some of them know how to open the Black Gate under the Night Fort... Or, Samwell fixes the cracked horn Jon gave him and brings the Wall down by accident. We have ourselves a shitstorm worthy of a seven volume fantasy epic ;)

The 93 letter contains more truth than I first thought. I think a lot of that stuff that seems like it was changed is actually still gonna happen. I'll leave it at that, but I think you're right to draw clues from it.

Indeed, and there are other clues. Dany is mentioned as only being the second of three threats to the realm. The first was the Wo5K. The third, and greatest, is the Others. I think Dany and her Dragons will turn to stone (greyscale), but that's another story. Point being, in the 93 letter, she isn't the savior of Westeros, but an invader. She's merely another distraction from the true threat.

As it stands, wights and white walkers aren't all that threatening, so I think this further supports my hypothesis.

I agree Dragonsteel will be needed. That's in the next section of my theory... I'll PM you my specific thoughts on the Others when I am drafting that section. :)

Dragonsteel is needed, in particular, to deal with the proper Others. The cadet "white walkers" are easily suppressed with dragonglass. The undead thralls, our "wights," are easily suppressed with fire. This also points toward there being a higher echelon of Other, as supposedly, the ancient Others that first came in the long night could not stand against this substance... according to the annals Samwell found in which the Last Hero wields it.

Dragonsteel sounds like an almost literal metaphor for Fire Sword. LB's suggestion of dragonbone seems very plausible, as does Valyrian Steel, but it may just as easily be a material we've not yet seen on the page. In any case, Fire Sword makes for a nice antithesis of the longswords we've seen white walkers wield. My guess is that dragonsteel will have the capacity to destroy all three types: Ancient Others, white walkers, and wights.

[Voice]

VotFM (and LmL) if I may

Dragonsteel could be from comets the same way Dawn is from a comet. If a comet-event/meteor shower was seen as thousand thousand dragons, you see what I mean.

I think Dawn is the dragonsteel sword of the Last Hero aka the original Ice.

Old Nan said the Red Comet meant "dragons." It may be that Dawn/Ice was forged from one such Dragon Star, and thus, the material became known as dragonsteel. :cheers: great idea!

I was thinking about this earlier reading Heresy. I am of the mind Bran the Builder was the Last Hero, by day... and that by night, Bran the Builder was the Night's King. If this is the case, it would make Dawn=Ice=Lightbringer make a whole lotta sense... Humor me briefly:

If Bran the Builder was the founder of House Stark, and, he was the Last Hero, it would make sense for his sword to become known as "Dawn" in Westeros, and "Lightbringer" in Asshai. If he were also condemned and exiled once his night-time escapades had been discovered, his blade would become known as Ice. It would also make sense for him to be disarmed, dishonored, and sent on his icy way.

This exile marks the end of the long night.

Dawn emerges, and finally a new Day(ne) is born. Being men of honor, the sons of Winterfell give their father's sword to the hero who uncovered his treachery, and declare him the first Sword of the Morning. The first Sword of the Morning builds his house at Starfall, where the dragonsteel originated...

The North Remembers, and in remembrance, the Starks name their new sword Ice, as a reminder of the Night's King's downfall.

ETA: Perhaps NK is just trying to get his sword back?

[WeaselPie]

read my last post on Heresy, V, I think we're getting somewhere

[Joe Pine]

On dragonsteelI'd previously seen speculated in a post/thread that dragon's bones or skulls were used in the fire to create a hotter/better burn by the Blacksmith and that may have been the differential (together with spells etc) that made the forging of those swords better than normal blades (higher heat/less impurities).

We know the Valaryians had ready access to dragons under the Freehold dominance, so perhaps use of dragon bones in forging swords of a high quality was prevalent, now whether that made Valaryian Steel and Dragonsteel the same thing or if there was a difference, I don't know.

There's obviously a stock of dragon skulls in Kings Landing under the Throne Room, whether that is significant, again, I don't know.

[Voice]

Good stuff guys. Though I'm not sure any blacksmith would be able to set dragonbone alight. Seems dragons are pretty much impervious to flame...

[Voice]

On dragonsteelI'd previously seen speculated in a post/thread that dragon's bones or skulls were used in the fire to create a hotter/better burn by the Blacksmith and that may have been the differential (together with spells etc) that made the forging of those swords better than normal blades (higher heat/less impurities).

We know the Valaryians had ready access to dragons under the Freehold dominance, so perhaps use of dragon bones in forging swords of a high quality was prevalent, now whether that made Valaryian Steel and Dragonsteel the same thing or if there was a difference, I don't know.

There's obviously a stock of dragon skulls in Kings Landing under the Throne Room, whether that is significant, again, I don't know.

Looks like the idea of dragonbones in the forging of Valyrian Steel has been definitively ruled out in this SSM (credit to JNR in Heresy for bringing my attention to it)...

[Joe Pine]

Looks like the idea of dragonbones in the forging of Valyrian Steel has been definitively ruled out in this SSM (credit to JNR in Heresy for bringing my attention to it)...

Ok. That's clear enough.

[Voice]

Ok. That's clear enough.

That does leave a few doors open though. Perhaps shattered obsidian was used instead. Valyrians were fond of glass candles after all.

And, dragonbone itself could still be dragonsteel. Or dragon's teeth?

Last, and certainly least, there is still my old and quite unpopular idea that dragonsteel is simply bronze ;)