Heresy 158

[Black Crow]

It has, but there's also been a lot of support for the statement. See the recent posts by SFDanny in particular.

Oh indeed the argument is there, which only serves to accentuate the denial including "I don't know why GRRM wrote that"

[Urrax2]

I agree as to the first para, but as I responded above on the second point I think there's still scope for it. Remember that in the synopsis the attraction doesn't actually get underway until Arya arrives at the Wall. She has yet to do so obviously, but GRRM has promised that all our characters will be back and shivering in Westeros in Winds of Winter, and Arya we know is aware both that Jon is still on the Wall and that ships sail from Braavos to the Wall. Then factor in the enforced gap and its not Arya Underfoot who arrives on the Wall but a growed-up Arya, and not a great lady but someone more akin to Ygritte on Speed.

:agree:

[Mother of Dragons]

In the books? It's always been rather doubtful speculation that he's dead. He seems to be inclined to leave the cave and return home because he thinks his doom is inescapable.

This is the last we hear of him.

In the show, he was stabbed by wights, had his throat cut by Meera, and was exploded by Leaf's fireball grenade. So if he still isn't dead, I need to take over as show-runner.

See, this is what I'm talking about. I read a thread on the forum where someone insisted it was glaringly obvious that Jojen just sat down and died, which I was sure I would've remembered. I didn't debate the point because the DWD chapters weren't fresh in my mind. Books 1-4 I recall better because they've been around longer. Maybe I'll reread ADWD by POV so it won't seem like such a big project...it's just that...sometimes I want to read other books :blushing: ...(HERESY! BLASPHEMY! COMMIE!) *waiting for warning points and rescinded invitation to hang out with you guys*

Speaking of commies, where did the commie emoticon go? I'll have to personally PM Ran, that was my favorite.

Yeah, can't remember exactly when but it was about two years ago. The current one is the sigil of John Uskglass, the Raven King.

Its a black crow volante [flying] which oddly enough is also the sigil of House Morrigen except that they have a storm green sky rather than a snow white one.

I can't believe I remembered that. I guess it was a badass avatar to make such an impression.

[wolfmaid7]

I agree as to the first para, but as I responded above on the second point I think there's still scope for it. Remember that in the synopsis the attraction doesn't actually get underway until Arya arrives at the Wall. She has yet to do so obviously, but GRRM has promised that all our characters will be back and shivering in Westeros in Winds of Winter, and Arya we know is aware both that Jon is still on the Wall and that ships sail from Braavos to the Wall. Then factor in the enforced gap and its not Arya Underfoot who arrives on the Wall but a growed-up Arya, and not a great lady but someone more akin to Ygritte on Speed.

For it to be seemless i see one alternative,not precluding others ofcourse but this has a Mist of Avalon Morgan Lafaye/Arthur feel about it. I can't see Jon and Arya developing feelings for each other unless something drastic happens that forces that and to me that's them sleeping with each other which they wouldn't do if they intentionally knew who eachother were from the get go.After the deed is done i can see torture about it especially if in the back of their minds they liked it.It's not farfetched that Arya is basically a Faceless man and Mel can glamour people.Or Arya could be at a point so broken she knows who Jon is "if" she sleeps with him but say nothing (this i doubt,but it's not so out there).

There was someone in the Stark tree named "Arya Flint" and i think GRRM is trying to secretly make a connection between Arya at the Wall and the situation with Danny Flint (girl passing like a boy).

[Mother of Dragons]

I agree as to the first para, but as I responded above on the second point I think there's still scope for it. Remember that in the synopsis the attraction doesn't actually get underway until Arya arrives at the Wall. She has yet to do so obviously, but GRRM has promised that all our characters will be back and shivering in Westeros in Winds of Winter, and Arya we know is aware both that Jon is still on the Wall and that ships sail from Braavos to the Wall. Then factor in the enforced gap and its not Arya Underfoot who arrives on the Wall but a growed-up Arya, and not a great lady but someone more akin to Ygritte on Speed.

So do you think Arya will start assassinating enemies before going to the Wall, or assist Jon with her new skill? I used to think she'd meet up back with Jaqen first, but I think he's gone, and his purpose was a way to lead Arya to Braavos to become a war machine- I liked his character, but I'm going to be alright if he doesn't show up again.

All those names she says at night and thirst for vengeance need closure, right? I have a feeling (or hope) she'll not be reunited with her family until she's reunited with Nymeria. I think Nymeria is still relevant because she still gets attention in the series, and she's leading a growing wolfpack that's hunting down Lannisters.

Did GRRM say ALL the Starks would return to the North? Because with Sansa, I thought that would never happen once Lady died. She chose another family and it seemed like a permanent cut from the Starks. Maybe he's being clever & Sansa will marry and no longer be technically a Stark so she won't return. All of the Stark kiddies reuniting at the end seems like too much happiness to hope for, but one can dream.

[JNR]

Oh indeed the argument is there, which only serves to accentuate the denial including "I don't know why GRRM wrote that"

Hard to argue with that...

See, this is what I'm talking about. I read a thread on the forum where someone insisted it was glaringly obvious that Jojen just sat down and died, which I was sure I would've remembered.

Well, people have certainly made the case that Jojen was, unbeknownst to us, ground up into paste and fed to Bran.

I'm just impressed with Jojen's greendream accuracy; if he's sure he's going to die somewhere outside the cave, I default to thinking he's right. Wherever "home" is in his head, I'd think it's months of travel away at minimum.

it's just that...sometimes I want to read other books :blushing: ...(HERESY! BLASPHEMY! COMMIE!) *waiting for warning points and rescinded invitation to hang out with you guys*

Anybody who says things expecting they won't be well received has just demonstrated why she will absolutely fit in with Heresy.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Arya was nine years old when this thing started. Five books into a seven book series, she's now eleven. If you're betting on the two of them hooking up, then either you'll need to wait for book ten, or you should get used to the idea of Jon Snow, pedophile. (And that's by medieval standards, which would be more than generous to Jon.)

.

[markg171]

So do you think Arya will start assassinating enemies before going to the Wall, or assist Jon with her new skill? I used to think she'd meet up back with Jaqen first, but I think he's gone, and his purpose was a way to lead Arya to Braavos to become a war machine- I liked his character, but I'm going to be alright if he doesn't show up again.

All those names she says at night and thirst for vengeance need closure, right? I have a feeling (or hope) she'll not be reunited with her family until she's reunited with Nymeria. I think Nymeria is still relevant because she still gets attention in the series, and she's leading a growing wolfpack that's hunting down Lannisters.

Did GRRM say ALL the Starks would return to the North? Because with Sansa, I thought that would never happen once Lady died. She chose another family and it seemed like a permanent cut from the Starks. Maybe he's being clever & Sansa will marry and no longer be technically a Stark so she won't return. All of the Stark kiddies reuniting at the end seems like too much happiness to hope for, but one can dream.

I'm going to spoiler tag this just in case you don't want to know

Jaqen has shown up again. He's the one who assassinated Pate in the prologue of A Feast for Crows, and then took his place later on when Sam meets Pate at the Citadel. The description of the alchemist who Pate meets and the description of the guy who Jaqen changes into when he leaves Arya is near identical.

The alchemist:

He was just a man, and his face was just a face. A young man’s face, ordinary, with full cheeks and the shadow of a beard. A scar showed faintly on his right cheek. He had a hooked nose, and a mat of dense black hair that curled tightly around his ears. It was not a face Pate recognized. “I do not know you.”

“Nor I you.”

“Who are you?”

“A stranger. No one. Truly.”

Jaqen's face when he leaves Arya:

“I do. My time is done.” Jaqen passed a hand down his face from forehead to chin, and where it went he changed. His cheeks grew fuller, his eyes closer; his nose hooked, a scar appeared on his right cheek where no scar had been before. And when he shook his head, his long straight hair, half red and half white, dissolved away to reveal a cap of tight black curls.

[Urrax2]

Arya was nine years old when this thing started. Five books into a seven book series, she's now eleven. If you're betting on the two of them hooking up, then either you'll need to wait for book ten, or you should get used to the idea of Jon Snow, pedophile. (And that's even by medieval standards, which is generous to Jon.)

The 5-year gap would make her 14, no? Plenty legal by Westeros standards.

[Black Crow]

Did GRRM say ALL the Starks would return to the North? Because with Sansa, I thought that would never happen once Lady died. She chose another family and it seemed like a permanent cut from the Starks. Maybe he's being clever & Sansa will marry and no longer be technically a Stark so she won't return. All of the Stark kiddies reuniting at the end seems like too much happiness to hope for, but one can dream.

Unless you're thinking of something else what he said [in A Cavil on Chronology] at the start of ADwD was; Next up the Winds of Winter. Wherein I hope, everybody will be shivering together once again..."

Ah, and just for you: :commie: :commie: :commie:

[King Tyrion XX]

Perhaps we will go to Skagos with Davos? Otherwise will need to see some development on the page with Osha and Rickon, somehow.

Saw someone post somewhere once that GRRM could start us off with a Davos chapter on a boat with Rickon and Osha on the return journey and work in info over a chapter or two like that before Rickon's reintroducton to the North. While that idea simple, I'd much rather see at least one chapter on Skagos :commie:

[Mother of Dragons]

Oh yeah!!! I remember Pate now. OK, so he's still lurking somewhere.

[King Tyrion XX]

Lol I guess we haven't seen stalker-style creepiness in the series yet. Howland spending 17 years cuddling with Lyanna's corpse would be a great way to start. I think you've just spoiled the next prologue!

This as GRRMs version of Golem and the ring. And all along I thought his Golem was Theon. This has to happen now.

[Black Crow]

Oh yeah!!! I remember Pate now. OK, so he's still lurking somewhere.

And perhaps Syrio Forel before him. That particular character is no doubt dead, but that's the trouble with Faceless Men, you never can tell who they really are, and [given that we're looking at identity] that may well be true of Rugen as well.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

The 5-year gap would make her 14, no? Plenty legal by Westeros standards.

Right. So it could have happened, maybe, if there'd been a five year gap. (Though I think he'd already scrapped it... there's enough "Arya" in Ygritte to cover that bit of his early synopsis.) Without the 5-yr-gap, it's pedophilia or bust for the Jon-Arya shippers.

[Black Crow]

Time and maturity in GRRM's world seem to be rather elastic concepts

[wolfmaid7]

Right. So it could have happened, maybe, if there'd been a five year gap. (Though I think he'd already scrapped it... there's enough "Arya" in Ygritte to cover that bit of his early synopsis.) Without the 5-yr-gap, it's pedophilia or bust for the Jon-Arya shippers.

Yeah i was thinking the 5 year gap myself .Did he really scrap that.If so then,i don't see it happening even by accident.By ASOIAF standards i think even that would be too much to put Jon with a 10yr old.

[wolfmaid7]

I'm going to spoiler tag this just in case you don't want to know

Jaqen has shown up again. He's the one who assassinated Pate in the prologue of A Feast for Crows, and then took his place later on when Sam meets Pate at the Citadel. The description of the alchemist who Pate meets and the description of the guy who Jaqen changes into when he leaves Arya is near identical.

The alchemist:

He was just a man, and his face was just a face. A young man’s face, ordinary, with full cheeks and the shadow of a beard. A scar showed faintly on his right cheek. He had a hooked nose, and a mat of dense black hair that curled tightly around his ears. It was not a face Pate recognized. “I do not know you.”

“Nor I you.”

“Who are you?”

“A stranger. No one. Truly.”

Jaqen's face when he leaves Arya:

“I do. My time is done.” Jaqen passed a hand down his face from forehead to chin, and where it went he changed. His cheeks grew fuller, his eyes closer; his nose hooked, a scar appeared on his right cheek where no scar had been before. And when he shook his head, his long straight hair, half red and half white, dissolved away to reveal a cap of tight black curls.

Oh yes this!!!

[King Tyrion XX]

Yeah, check out Maisie on the new magazine cover in GRRM's Not a Blog. She's turning into a confident-looking young woman indeed.

Wow Tyrion has a beard now. I ended up reading GRRM's post about how many seasons the show could go. He said HBO has been saying consistently since season 1 that they want it to go 10yrs. Id imagine they'd run out of book material by then. But it's the show and it's focused more on the Game anyway. I can absolutely see it being continued solely on D&Ds ideas though I know GRRM would throw in ideas as well.

[Mother of Dragons]

And perhaps Syrio Forel before him. That particular character is no doubt dead, but that's the trouble with Faceless Men, you never can tell who they really are, and [given that we're looking at identity] that may well be true of Rugen as well.

See, I don't think Syrio is alive anymore. I gave up on that pipe dream long ago. I'm frustrated right now bc I moved recently & can't find my books, and my ereader makes it difficult to look up chapters as they are numbered vs named. I need to check Arya's last encounter w/Jaqen because on the series, she says her dancing master was from Braavos, and Jaqen tells her that's different from being a FM when he gives her the coin. I thought it was a more subtle invitation when he gave her the coin. But I'll SEARCH and find out. My point being, if J says he's different, and it's canon, Syrio is probably dead vs faceless.

It's hard because I want to read the books, watch the show, then check the forum when I have a new question every 5 minutes and it gets difficult to advance! My best friend is a nurse with 2 young children and she told me when ADWD came out, she "re-read" the synopses for books 1-4 via Wikipedia and took notes. I found that very amusing, but I may have to get stickies to leave notes in the actual books :read: