Heresy 158

[WeaselPie]

"Winter is coming" means the Winter King is coming to choose a bride?

VotFM, you've made a meaningful connection. I'm also :bang: because the Green Man mythology seems so obvious in the story as a whole.

Could the big picture be an ancient fight between the Green Men and the Great Other?

This also strengthens the notion of a visit to the God's Eye. Rhaegar probably read all about it, and Howland probably learned directly from the GM.

Definitely a bit of a bastardization of the tale, but the central struggle is all about the seasons.

[mercyx]

I don't believe that Rhaegar ever raped Lyanna. I believe they were in a mutual relationship. She was known to be wild. My thoughts are that she probably "snuck off" with Rhaegar and Stark honour led to her father saying she was kidnapped in order to have not technically breached the Baratheon betrothal. Brandon was similarly described as wild and I think would have, in his rage, followed that accusation blindly to his death. Ned and Benjen both seemed to have had a better idea of Lyanna's feelings for Rhaegar (Ned never thinks ill of him even after TOJ, Benjen laughs at Lyanna for crying at the tourney). It does seem unlikely that a young girl in that time would run away from her home and future marriage but she may have felt like she was "safe" because he was the crown Prince.

[WeaselPie]

This discussion puts Ned's chat with Arya in a different light. Sure, he was trying to appease a little girl, but why would he do it with an outright lie? Sansa was betrothed to Joff, the future King. What king was he talking about?

Arya cocked her head to one side. “Can I be a king’s councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?”

“You,” Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, “will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon.”

Arya screwed up her face. “No,” she said, “that’s Sansa.”

I'd also like to point out that before the World Book, we had woefully little information on Stark women. They are still even now just names to us, with very little information about their fates. GRRM holding back She-Wolves makes sense.

[Black Crow]

"Winter is coming" means the Winter King is coming to choose a bride?

VotFM, you've made a meaningful connection. I'm also :bang: because the Green Man mythology seems so obvious in the story as a whole.

Could the big picture be an ancient fight between the Green Men and the Great Other?

This also strengthens the notion of a visit to the God's Eye. Rhaegar probably read all about it, and Howland probably learned directly from the GM.

Definitely a bit of a bastardization of the tale, but the central struggle is all about the seasons.

This is actually something we've discussed a lot on Heresy over the years, with Bran [the summer child] being put into the ground to renew the land in the spring, while Jon becomes the Winter King to cleanse and preserve the land against that renewal. What i don't recall we'd factored into that was Lyanna being the Queen of the May. Traditionally, after being crowned she is then abducted by the Green Man who has his wicked way with her before she is in turn sacrificed at the summer's end.

[Black Crow]

I don't believe that Rhaegar ever raped Lyanna. I believe they were in a mutual relationship. She was known to be wild. My thoughts are that she probably "snuck off" with Rhaegar and Stark honour led to her father saying she was kidnapped in order to have not technically breached the Baratheon betrothal. Brandon was similarly described as wild and I think would have, in his rage, followed that accusation blindly to his death. Ned and Benjen both seemed to have had a better idea of Lyanna's feelings for Rhaegar (Ned never thinks ill of him even after TOJ, Benjen laughs at Lyanna for crying at the tourney). It does seem unlikely that a young girl in that time would run away from her home and future marriage but she may have felt like she was "safe" because he was the crown Prince.

Welcome to Heresy. That, I fear, is central to the R+L=J theory which you'll find on the main page. Here in Heresy we prefer to look below the surface of what GRRM's wife Parris has referred to as "the obvious".

[WeaselPie]

This is actually something we've discussed a lot on Heresy over the years, with Bran [the summer child] being put into the ground to renew the land in the spring, while Jon becomes the Winter King to cleanse and preserve the land against that renewal. What i don't recall we'd factored into that was Lyanna being the Queen of the May. Traditionally, after being crowned she is then abducted by the Green Man who has his wicked way with her before she is in turn sacrificed at the summer's end.

...who abducts her while she is off a-Maying a-Novembering, then hides her in a Tower until she is released by his opponent, in some versions.

Absolutely, Bran's story screams Green Man and that's where my brain was. I also never made the connection with Lyanna.

[WeaselPie]

Speculation: The Starks had Lyanna planned as the next Flower Bride for the Winter King, but Rhaegar threw his hat in the ring as a challenge. Hence, super pissed off Brandon, who knew Winter was Coming (for his bride).

The question still is, who won? We can speculate, personally I'm fairly certain our dear Subversion Turtle would have twisted the tale.

We also have a pretty cool association between the Green Man and the Horned God/Lord of Death (union of divine and animal with horns or antlers - shout out to Bran).

And we've got the Oak King (summer) and the Holly King (winter) as dual aspects of masculinity/nature/seasons. Waxing/waning, twinning, balance. Huge topic. Gawain and the Green Knight, Arthurian legends.

/early morning babbling. I need more coffee

[Black Crow]

re #125 This one was posted by Werthead way back

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/8085-the-lyanna-rhaegar-jon-thread/page-3

Posted 05 May 2006 - 07:01 PM

So during the BwB London meet-up earlier this evening, GRRM's Significant Other, Parris, turned up (possibly one of the nicest people you will ever meet). During discussions about the series, she reiterated a point that she has made before, that R+L=J is an extremely obvious thing to do in the series, and George doesn't do obvious, leaving the likelihood of that theory being correct much reduced.

and;

Posted 07 May 2006 - 06:20 AM

Riiiiight. I see that that that point sparked some interesting discussion, so here's what I remember (whilst recalling a large amount of alcohol was consumed in the interim).

Parris doesn't get to see the finished book much before anyone else. She is George's first reader, so sees the finished product before even the editors and makes comments on it, but that is it. That said, they do discuss the storyline and some directions the story is taking ahead of time, but as for reading the written product...not before George has finished it. Apparently the sole exception to this was The Armageddon Rag, where George needed her advice on what songs to put in the book, as she was a bit more familiar with the 1960s rock 'n' roll scene.

According to Parris, she did come up with a few alternative suggestions for Jon's parentage that George wouldn't comment on, but apparently one suggestion did provoke one of George's 'evil smiles' (apparently deployed whenever he has come up with an extremely cunning plot twist). However, absolutely no amount of persuasion or bribery would get her to reveal what that theory was.

[WeaselPie]

re #125 This one was posted by Werthead way back

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/8085-the-lyanna-rhaegar-jon-thread/page-3

Posted 05 May 2006 - 07:01 PM

So during the BwB London meet-up earlier this evening, GRRM's Significant Other, Parris, turned up (possibly one of the nicest people you will ever meet). During discussions about the series, she reiterated a point that she has made before, that R+L=J is an extremely obvious thing to do in the series, and George doesn't do obvious, leaving the likelihood of that theory being correct much reduced.

...

"I don't know why Parris said that"

[Black Crow]

"I don't know why Parris said that"

:lol:

Nope me neither and at one point it was claimed that she hadn't said it [not true] and that she had "come back into the room to deny it" [also not true], while of course the original synopsis which only references the reveal as a way for Jon to get inside Arya's knickers was proclaimed a hoax - until Ran confirmed it

:commie: :commie: :commie:

[Voice]

Lots of food for thought here to chew on.

This is actually something we've discussed a lot on Heresy over the years, with Bran [the summer child] being put into the ground to renew the land in the spring, while Jon becomes the Winter King to cleanse and preserve the land against that renewal. What i don't recall we'd factored into that was Lyanna being the Queen of the May. Traditionally, after being crowned she is then abducted by the Green Man who has his wicked way with her before she is in turn sacrificed at the summer's end.

I'm liking Howland Reed as the Green Man taking fair Lyanna Crowned in the False Spring (May) to the Isle. Perhaps we've been looking at this thing all wrong. Maybe it was Howland and Rhaegar in cahoots, and Lyanna was the clueless sacrifice caught up in their adherence to elder gods and prophecy :devil:

Perhaps the Song of Ice and Fire is an apocalypse they sought to bring about. Perhaps the promise was a warning to do whatever Howland says, else he'd kill Jon...

Tired, been up all night, so I'll catch you guys on the morrow.

[Frey family reunion]

Dunno, that's a really good question.

It sounds like some kind of old northern ritual, one that for once doesn't necessarily involve ice and cold and blood sacrifice? Why would the Manderly's practice it?

Don't forget that not all First Men (i.e. Pagan) rituals are Northern rituals. Garth Greenhand definitely is a fertility God (perhaps also associated with blood sacrifice) and is more associated with the South than the North. So perhaps the ritual involving the Queen of Love and Beauty has pagan roots in a fertility/Spring ritual that also involved some type of blood sacrifice. Perhaps Rhaegar and his group are bringing back the original intent of the ritual.

[Frey family reunion]

Lots of food for thought here to chew on.

I'm liking Howland Reed as the Green Man taking fair Lyanna Crowned in the False Spring (May) to the Isle. Perhaps we've been looking at this thing all wrong. Maybe it was Howland and Rhaegar in cahoots, and Lyanna was the clueless sacrifice caught up in their adherence to elder gods and prophecy :devil:

Perhaps the Song of Ice and Fire is an apocalypse they sought to bring about. Perhaps the promise was a warning to do whatever Howland says, else he'd kill Jon...

Tired, been up all night, so I'll catch you guys on the morrow.

I am starting to think along similar lines. But I was thinking that if Howland and Rhaegar were both part of this order of Green Men, that ultimately Howland may have gotten a crisis of conscience (or recalled his oath to the Starks) and brought Stark and his men to their hiding spot in an attempt to rescue Lyanna from this fate. It would explain why Eddard is able to find Lyanna.

ETA: heh, if we're talking about a good old fashioned pagan orgy on the Isle of Faces we may never know for sure who Jon's father is. He and Lolly's son Tyrion may have a bit in common.

[Black Crow]

I'm still more inclined to see it the other way and that Rhaegar's intervention was intended to frustrate what was or appeared to be a dangerous combination, whether political or mystical. There is in fact no reason why it shouldn't have been both and that while Rhaegar as a son of House Targaryen was properly concerned to frustrate the political threat offered by the binding together of the Starks and the Baratheons, but also, with an eye to prophecy and the mystical side, no doubt remembered that the Baratheons, unlike the Targaryens, are not pure Valyrians but 300 years ago married into the Durrandons - the Storm Kings - and adopted their sigil and words. He may therefore have had a double reason for frustrating the proposed marriage.

Given Rhaegar's interest in the Prince that was Promised prophecy and dragons, I really don't see any likelihood of his having any connection to the Green Men, while conversely I think that it's Howland Reed's undoubted connection to the Green Men which is going to be important, not his supposed knowledge of a secret wedding.

[WeaselPie]

Interestingly, all the same theme. Duality of ice/fire, winter/summer, death/life. The third eye as a conduit for balance (devastation/rebirth cycles). Odin's single eye and his twin ravens (sight/knowledge/memory/messages/mind) that are needed because he lacks normal visual perception of two eyes, and his two wolves (sustenance/hunting but also greed/death) . Insert 50 other Ragnarok references here.

Going back to the conversation about the Noble Savage and the cannibal argument, "only death can pay for life" and all that. It seems to me that the Order of the Green Men is about balance and pact-forming and not only fertility. Obvs the normal judgements we might make for ritual sacrifice don't apply since they can't be judged as good or bad, they are simply the natural order of things.

This does point a finger at Howland, and does clarify Rhaegar's possible motives. A two year winter, a false spring of two months, followed by winter returning with a vengeance and a...5 year or so winter? And most recently, quite a long summer.

I was reading about Irish Saints recently and St. Brigid. In Irish Mythology, she was a beautiful girl who her father and brother bretrothed to a man she did not want to marry, so she plucked out her own eye so she would no longer be beautiful. It miraculously healed of course and she became a Saint. Anyway, when she was a baby she could not eat normal food and was sustained by a white cow with red ears, the coloration being a reference to a faerie creature.

Not sure where I'm going with this :)

Sláinte

ETA Lyanna is remembered weeping blood, Cat almost tears her eyes out, Thistle DOES tear her own eyes out, Orell's Eagle tries to scratch Jon's eyes out.

Is this a Pandora's Box/Tree of Knowledge sort of thing? Like Vishnu's third eye. They all lead to death. But also to rebirth in a different form, especially Cat and Thistle.

[Black Crow]

Don't forget that not all First Men (i.e. Pagan) rituals are Northern rituals. Garth Greenhand definitely is a fertility God (perhaps also associated with blood sacrifice) and is more associated with the South than the North. So perhaps the ritual involving the Queen of Love and Beauty has pagan roots in a fertility/Spring ritual that also involved some type of blood sacrifice. Perhaps Rhaegar and his group are bringing back the original intent of the ritual.

As I've just noted the Queen of the May [with flowers in her hair] is indeed a fertility ritual performed in the spring and originally it appears that it did involve a subsequent blood sacrifice. Lyanna's bed of blood may not be unconnected, especially if it was down to Ser Arthur Dayne knowing how the ritual was supposed to end.

[Frey family reunion]

I'm still more inclined to see it the other way and that Rhaegar's intervention was intended to frustrate what was or appeared to be a dangerous combination, whether political or mystical. There is in fact no reason why it shouldn't have been both and that while Rhaegar as a son of House Targaryen was properly concerned to frustrate the political threat offered by the binding together of the Starks and the Baratheons, but also, with an eye to prophecy and the mystical side, no doubt remembered that the Baratheons, unlike the Targaryens, are not pure Valyrians but 300 years ago married into the Durrandons - the Storm Kings - and adopted their sigil and words. He may therefore have had a double reason for frustrating the proposed marriage.

Given Rhaegar's interest in the Prince that was Promised prophecy and dragons, I really don't see any likelihood of his having any connection to the Green Men, while conversely I think that it's Howland Reed's undoubted connection to the Green Men which is going to be important, not his supposed knowledge of a secret wedding.

Well here's my line of thinking. If in fact the Order of Green Men got it's roots in the Targaryen court (pun intended) it would have been during the time of a Blackwood queen, and when a certain "peasant girl" with flowers in her hair was brought to court by Duncan the Small. Jenny of Oldstones claimed descent from First Men Kings, perhaps she is referring to a female line surviving from the destruction of House Gardner. The "flowers in her hair" definitely makes me think of the flowery crowns of House Gardner.

So while initially Jenny is considered a bit of a scandal, according to the World Book she ends up being a favorite at the Court. Now who could Jenny and her pagan ways have started to influence during her time at court? Probably Rahella, and her ladies in waiting, Joanna, and Princess Martell. Her pagan fertility beliefs may have been a lot more entertaining than spending time with the increasingly insane Aerys, and the opportunity obsessed Tywin. It may also explain why Tywin remains suspicious that Tyrion may not be his son.

So the Cult gets its hold into the Targaryen court, which may mean that the children become indoctrinated as well. Specifically Rhaegar and the Martells, with Rhaegar perhaps inviting his bachelor buddies, Myles, Lonmouth, Arthur, Oswell, and perhaps even Connington.

So the Whents put on the Harrenhal tourney with a shadow financier (either Rhaegar or perhaps the Hightowers), and specifically they invite the Stark kids. Howland fresh off a two year stay at the Isle of faces also happens to make his way to this tourney as well. Aerys is put on alert by Varys that Rhaegar is conspiring against him at the tourney. Perhaps this is true, but I think if nothing else, Rhaegar is looking to extend an invitation to Lyanna to join their group, to add some fresh blood to their parties, fresh Northern blood. The invitation is then extended through the crown of blue winter roses. The fact that the Martells are part of the club is why neither Elia nor her hot tempered brother Oberyn react negatively to the "crowning" of Lyanna.

While Rhaegar is still a Targaryen, he's also a Blackwood (and a Dayne and a Martell and so on). So while he references the fact that a dragon has three heads, he also references a song of ice and fire. Which resonates with the oath the Reeds give Bran. I think this is purely a Westeros pact, and I think it dates back to the Pact made on the Isle of Faces.

So while Rhaegar attends the birth of his son, Howland may still be with the Starks, making friends with Eddard but also possibly subtly grooming Lyanna to bring her into the fold (and her bloodline). This is why Howland knows where Lyanna is being kept by Rhaegar and his fellows in the order, because Howland may have been in it with them.

In the meantime Brandon may have an inkling as to the significance of the flowery crown, which is why he reacts so angrily to Rhaegar, but my guess is Brandon never makes the connection that Howland is party to this. So when Lyanna does disappear (runs off to join the cult) Brandon goes to King's Landing to confront Rhaegar.

So the kingsguards are in fact guarding a king at the tower, but they may be guarding him in their role in the Order of Green Men, and the king they are guarding is their Corn King.

[JNR]

she was a beautiful girl who her father and brother bretrothed to a man she did not want to marry, so she plucked out her own eye so she would no longer be beautiful.

Well, that seems a radical step. I think I might have gone for facial scars, burns, etc.

Possibly Brigid could also have made herself temporarily disgusting by anointing herself with garbage, crap, etc. "You can't possibly love me, for I smell like shite. And as long as I'm engaged to you against my will, I mean to go on smelling like shite" being the clear message.

This being a common problem for girls at that time, presumably there was a thriving industry of anti-cosmetics designed to make one as unappealing as possible, featuring colored, textured, and scented products with enticing names such as Rancid Chicken Grease, Sulfurous Bowels, Barf of the Canine, Fresh Meconium, etc.

How is it possible Lyanna never thought of this? Surely Robert would not have wanted a girl who smelt of Sulfurous Bowels. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot survive the aroma of canine barf."

[markg171]

As I've just noted the Queen of the May [with flowers in her hair] is indeed a fertility ritual performed in the spring and originally it appears that it did involve a subsequent blood sacrifice. Lyanna's bed of blood may not be unconnected, especially if it was down to Ser Arthur Dayne knowing how the ritual was supposed to end.

Ser Arthur Dayne... S.A.D... sad.

Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips.

“We all swore oaths,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly.

[Essan]

This is actually something we've discussed a lot on Heresy over the years, with Bran [the summer child] being put into the ground to renew the land in the spring, while Jon becomes the Winter King to cleanse and preserve the land against that renewal. What i don't recall we'd factored into that was Lyanna being the Queen of the May. Traditionally, after being crowned she is then abducted by the Green Man who has his wicked way with her before she is in turn sacrificed at the summer's end.

Which is, of course, more or less exactly what happens ....

We don't actually know how/why Lyanna died. It's just assumed due to the imagery used, that it was as a result of childbirth.

Crackpot: What vow were the KG upholding? To ensure the ceremony was completed on the scheduled date. What did Ned promise? That he himself would now complete the ceremony, and sacrifice Lyanna .....

eta: and having now read the most recent posts above, we seem to be in close agreement ...... Maybe not so crackpot after all?