Heresy 158

[Black Crow]

Ancient Others? ;)

Past my bed-time so I'm not getting into that one again tonight, but to say there's no reason not to suppose that if the neverborn are being created now there's no reason not to believe that the walkers [including the ones riding or running with spiders] were being created back then either. The difference between our respective positions is that I don't believe that whoever was/is creating them is doing so in his or her image.

And with that, goodnight

[King Tyrion XX]

We've never seen Syrio Forel's corpse but he did teach Arya a lot before "moving on". A lot of this really comes back to the fortuitous appearance of Jaqen H'gar just when Arya needs him and how he set her on her way to Braavos. All it requires is for Syrio to be chucked in the Black Cells pending a fate worse than death and his transformation there into Jaqen H'gar - remember that they are controlled by Rugen who periodically transforms himself into Varys. But mistake me not, the character once known as Syrio Forel is "dead" and aint coming back. The real Syrio Forel probably died in the House of Black and White many years ago.

The First Sword of Braavos serves for life.

[King Tyrion XX]

Ritually, the Summer King needed to defeat the Winter King so that the Spring Maiden would release the frost-bound earth and bring about the miracle of rebirth to the land. Paraphrasing - this is an excellent resource.

Rhaegar and Lyanna are obvious here, but we still need a Winter King. And Winter seems to have won. We also have a bit of a switcheroo because Lyanna is not associated with Spring. This may be the Stark's deep dark secret after all - the ritual offering of a maiden. GRRM would have mixed it up somehow. *cough* Jon Otherbaby, the pregnant woman wanting vengeance, etc. IMO.

What if it's on the Starks to bring about each season? Lyanna to bring about Spring, Bran Summer, some other Stark brings Winter mayhaps around time of Summerhall? Then a Stark for Autumn around 320...

[wolfmaid7]

Seems like a guesses upon guesses wolfmaid. If we make a bunch of assumptions that don't really make a lot of sense, I guess it's possible. But I don't see any common footsoldiers interrupting Eddard of House Stark. And if they did, and if she's Jon's mother, there would be a suckling babe present, along with that image of the bloody region...

Hell its all guesses won't you say,some better than others but as i said before while it is possible,it's not something i'm saying is probable in this case.Hence me saying that it being nothing more than propaganda being most likely the case.Ned being emotionally unavailable to even give a for sure account of some of the events and what happen next is a nice foundation for anyone to fill in the gaps with whatever..In the end it doesn't matter the result is still the same "according to the victors" Rhaegar abducted and raped Lyanna and uneblieveable number of times.

Strictly speaking as I didn't actually have my laptop in front of me but had to rush next door to get it, I wouldn't like to swear as to whether he used the word spell or magic, [or magic spell] but either way it was a pretty unequivocal statement. They're not a mysterious race with or without a culture, but are created by magick; which means somebody is creating them.

Clearly this and i will add imo it's looking harder for them being Craster's sons

[Matthew.]

Clearly this and i will add imo it's looking harder for them being Craster's sons

Not necessarily, if Craster's sons are sacrificed in a manner that's similar to Rhaego being sacrificed to stir life into stone dragon eggs.

Edit: By which I mean, the white walkers (constructs of ice) are no longer Craster's sons, but that's what they started out as in whatever ritual is being used to raise white walkers.

[wolfmaid7]

Not necessarily, if Craster's sons are sacrificed in a manner that's similar to Rhaego being sacrificed to stir life into stone dragon eggs.

Edit: By which I mean, the white walkers (constructs of ice) are no longer Craster's sons, but that's what they started out as in whatever ritual is being used to raise white walkers.

They still wouldn't be Craster's sons(Changellings) though this would be blood magic.Their deaths made ice and snow live.

ETA: This is excluding baby pick up mind (which i don't believe wws are doing).

[Eira Seren]

...

Yeah Val and Mel at one point seemed to want to fit that role for Jon,but in the end i really think it will be Lyanna who will birth him again.

How do you mean?

[Eira Seren]

Edit: double post

[Eira Seren]

Ritually, the Summer King needed to defeat the Winter King so that the Spring Maiden would release the frost-bound earth and bring about the miracle of rebirth to the land. Paraphrasing - this is an excellent resource.

Rhaegar and Lyanna are obvious here, but we still need a Winter King. And Winter seems to have won. We also have a bit of a switcheroo because Lyanna is not associated with Spring. This may be the Stark's deep dark secret after all - the ritual offering of a maiden. GRRM would have mixed it up somehow. *cough* Jon Otherbaby, the pregnant woman wanting vengeance, etc. IMO.

Crackpot: Or the ritual offering of (a) Lady?

Only they get winter...

[Mace Cooterian]

In an interruption to our advertised program I'm watching a feature on Sky Atlantic, providing a catch up on the HBO series thus far and featuring interviews with [among others] GRRM, who has just confirmed that when Sam pinked Ser Puddles "he broke the spell holding him together."

cough ice golem cough cough.

I was sort of looking for a door opening to put a thought into the stream. Starting working backwards and my favorite Cajun provided the key.

When the series (books) talks about the opening of the third eye and considering the discussion of late about Bran and which side of the fence he will fall (good or bad). Since magic is concerned and is most likely associated with weirwood paste and the opening of one's third eye.....doesn't it stand to reason when we consider the "hinges of the world"; also based on magic, that it's a 50/50 chance that when your 3rd eye opening occurs, one can find themself grasping ICE or FIRE. Please don't check the grammar in that last statment...just go with the flow (a stream of consciousness).

To me this helps to address the unpredictablity on the ebbing and flowing of majic that is occuring.

[wolfmaid7]

How do you mean?

I am expecting Jon to complete his crypt dream while in a coma, which is also where i think he will be visited by his version of "the grey lady" "lady of the mist" and Mists in this story can mean memories.The lady that would appear from the mists will be his Lyanna who will give him his "cold kiss" thus birthing him again to his new life as Winter King.

I was sort of looking for a door opening to put a thought into the stream. Starting working backwards and my favorite Cajun provided the key.

When the series (books) talks about the opening of the third eye and considering the discussion of late about Bran and which side of the fence he will fall (good or bad). Since magic is concerned and is most likely associated with weirwood paste and the opening of one's third eye.....doesn't it stand to reason when we consider the "hinges of the world"; also based on magic, that it's a 50/50 chance that when your 3rd eye opening occurs, one can find themself grasping ICE or FIRE. Please don't check the grammar in that last statment...just go with the flow (a stream of consciousness).

To me this helps to address the unpredictablity on the ebbing and flowing of majic that is occuring.

We talked about this a bit before and i think it's dependant on whose on the otherside calling and whose hand you grasp.To me Bran one his eye was opened was being pulled by two different entity.One represented by the Weirwoods (who i believe is GRRM and his ilk) and the other is represented by the 3ec.And i believe a bit of deception happened where Bran thought that he was heading North to see the Crow,when in fact it was BR drawing him.Once the gate is open you can't help powers from flocking ,then it becomes a matter of choice.

Jon had his eyes open on the pass down the road we have Mel asking to be his mentor,we also have Val hanging on him a bit.But alas none of them got their chance because boom he got stabbed.They still may make a play for him who knows but i like the idea that his choice falls elsewhere.

We see this also with Arya though hers takes a bit more explaining and i think i've had one too many glasses of homemade wine.

[Voice]

Hell its all guesses won't you say,some better than others but as i said before while it is possible,it's not something i'm saying is probable in this case.Hence me saying that it being nothing more than propaganda being most likely the case.Ned being emotionally unavailable to even give a for sure account of some of the events and what happen next is a nice foundation for anyone to fill in the gaps with whatever..In the end it doesn't matter the result is still the same "according to the victors" Rhaegar abducted and raped Lyanna and uneblieveable number of times.

You're right of course, it's all guesses. I'm just saying in order for us to think some soldiers saw Lyanna's body, deduced it was rape that killed her, saw no evidence of bloody-bed childbirth nor a babe, requires a lot of assumptions that aren't exactly backed up by text.

Contrast this with Robert being a rapist and rebel without a cause. He won his rebellion, and as victor, he was able to write his cause into the history books while simultaneously dragging Rhaegar's name through the mud for the past seventeen years (as king no less). Therefore it's strange that more people don't think of him as a rapist, that Ned doesn't remember him with contempt, and that characters not named Robert Baratheon seem to view him in a favorable light.

Clearly this and i will add imo it's looking harder for them being Craster's sons

Very much agreed. The case for them being human changlings just got thinner.

[Mother of Dragons]

We've never seen Syrio Forel's corpse but he did teach Arya a lot before "moving on". A lot of this really comes back to the fortuitous appearance of Jaqen H'gar just when Arya needs him and how he set her on her way to Braavos. All it requires is for Syrio to be chucked in the Black Cells pending a fate worse than death and his transformation there into Jaqen H'gar - remember that they are controlled by Rugen who periodically transforms himself into Varys. But mistake me not, the character once known as Syrio Forel is "dead" and aint coming back. The real Syrio Forel probably died in the House of Black and White many years ago.

After mentioning Syrio last night, I coincidentally read something interesting:

From WoW section, a link to BryndenBFish's wordpress blog, the first Arya/Mercy chap from a reading last year menioning a Phario Forel...

Coincidence? I think not!

[wolfmaid7]

You're right of course, it's all guesses. I'm just saying in order for us to think some soldiers saw Lyanna's body, deduced it was rape that killed her, saw no evidence of bloody-bed childbirth nor a babe, requires a lot of assumptions that aren't exactly backed up by text.

Contrast this with Robert being a rapist and rebel without a cause. He won his rebellion, and as victor, he was able to write his cause into the history books while simultaneously dragging Rhaegar's name through the mud for the past seventeen years (as king no less). Therefore it's strange that more people don't think of him as a rapist, that Ned doesn't remember him with contempt, and that characters not named Robert Baratheon seem to view him in a favorable light.

Very much agreed. The case for them being human changlings just got thinner.

Again no arguement from me that it was all :bs: made up to paint Rhaegar in a certain light.It may also be a case of sins of the father i mean Aerys was a rapist himself so why not Rhaegar.It's not like anyone's going to really question it.Fruit of the poison tree.

Yeah i like Frey Family Reunion's Golem idea more and more.

[Matthew.]

They still wouldn't be Craster's sons(Changellings) though this would be blood magic.Their deaths made ice and snow live.

This seems an overly literal interpretation of the phrase "Craster's sons," at least as I would use it. If the basic premise is "white walkers are being made from Craster's sacrificed sons," I think this leaves us a degree of wiggle room, and it would still be consistent with a belief among the wives that 'the sons' roam the Haunted Forest. Maybe they were nothing more than a blood sacrifice, or maybe it's closer to what seems to have been depicted in the show, which is that they're converted into white walkers--they start as things of flesh and blood, but grow into something else.

Again, as a parallel, the text calls Dany the Mother of Dragons, and while that's not literally true, it still makes a sort of sense, especially if Rhaego was the sacrifice to animate them; and more sense, still, if Drogon is figuratively fulfilling the Stallion that Mounts the World prophecy.

[Voice]

Not necessarily, if Craster's sons are sacrificed in a manner that's similar to Rhaego being sacrificed to stir life into stone dragon eggs.

Edit: By which I mean, the white walkers (constructs of ice) are no longer Craster's sons, but that's what they started out as in whatever ritual is being used to raise white walkers.

Gotta agree with wolfmaid on this one. In the scenario you describe, they are not Craster's sons, but blood sacrifices... which I think was her original point.

For example, Rhaegal is not a Rhaego changeling.... Drogon is not a Khal Drogo changeling... etc.

[wolfmaid7]

This seems an overly literal interpretation of the phrase "Craster's sons," at least as I would use it. If the basic premise is "white walkers are being made from Craster's sacrificed sons," I think this leaves us a degree of wiggle room, and it would still be consistent with a belief among the wives that 'the sons' roam the Haunted Forest. Maybe they were nothing more than a blood sacrifice, or maybe it's closer to what seems to have been depicted in the show, which is that they're converted into white walkers--they start as things of flesh and blood, but grow into something else.

Again, as a parallel, the text calls Dany the Mother of Dragons, and while that's not literally true, it still makes a sort of sense, especially if Rhaego was the sacrifice to animate them; and more sense, still, if Drogon is figuratively fulfilling the Stallion that Mounts the World prophecy.

Except for one thing and it always pegs on this.....How do the wives come by this knowledge? It is the belief of the wives that have absolutely nothing to support it other than what wifey on the left says.Back to the initial with all do respect it isn't a literal interpretation of a phrase.Its two different processes period.We can't proove that wws are picking up the babies.They are most likely dying from exposure or getting ripped to shred by Wights.What is the biggest road block is the wife's knowledge for me.

ETA: Posted before i was done

[Mother of Dragons]

Strictly speaking as I didn't actually have my laptop in front of me but had to rush next door to get it, I wouldn't like to swear as to whether he used the word spell or magic, [or magic spell] but either way it was a pretty unequivocal statement. They're not a mysterious race with or without a culture, but are created by magick; which means somebody is creating them.

That's a big teaser. You think it's the Great Other? I haven't checked your theories yet, but do you think we've met the GO yet, or who/what would be in control. I don't think we know yet, the horn may help with that. I'm assuming he's older than the Night's King.

You think it's possible that the "Old Gods"/weirwoods are like a pantheon with Zeus figure as Great Other? I was interested in the fact that gods is plural, so its not monotheistic, but the old gods aren't named.

I dont remember if I read this in Heresy or another thread, but someone said the drowned god was a minion of the GO. I'm so fascinated with the North & hope we read more about it next book.

[Voice]

I was sort of looking for a door opening to put a thought into the stream. Starting working backwards and my favorite Cajun provided the key.

When the series (books) talks about the opening of the third eye and considering the discussion of late about Bran and which side of the fence he will fall (good or bad). Since magic is concerned and is most likely associated with weirwood paste and the opening of one's third eye.....doesn't it stand to reason when we consider the "hinges of the world"; also based on magic, that it's a 50/50 chance that when your 3rd eye opening occurs, one can find themself grasping ICE or FIRE. Please don't check the grammar in that last statment...just go with the flow (a stream of consciousness).

To me this helps to address the unpredictablity on the ebbing and flowing of majic that is occuring.

I sort of dig this...but it seems like the Thrid Eye is it's own thing. Bran opens his long before being wed to the trees. And, as I've pointed out before, there is absolutely nothing in the text to suggest weirwoods are associated with Ice. Bran has not fallen on either side of the fence. He is not on the Ice side, nor is he on the Fire side. A case could be made that he is on the Song side, as he is living with Singers now ;)

But again I remind the forum that greenseers, weirwoods, and cotf are not northern entities. They once covered all of Westeros. It is not accurate to assume they are "of the North" simply because Bran finds Bloodraven and Leaf up there. There is still the Isle of Faces, so named, because of the weirwood grove there. The North keeps the Old Gods, but the Old Gods are more than the North. They are the native gods of the Riverlands, Stormlands, Crownlands, Westerlands, etc. Giants and cotf even roamed the red sands of Dorne. They are not the side of Ice. They are Earth.

[JNR]

After mentioning Syrio last night, I coincidentally read something interesting:

From WoW section, a link to BryndenBFish's wordpress blog, the first Arya/Mercy chap from a reading last year menioning a Phario Forel...

Coincidence? I think not!

If you haven't read that chapter, you should. It's right here. It's a good read -- the best sample chapter from WoW I've read so far, of about half a dozen.

And Phario Forel isn't just similar as names go; he is described as a playwright with "the bloodiest quill in Braavos."

His play The Bloody Hand is a fictionalized account of the events in King's Landing right around the time Syrio Forel ostensibly died, in which Tyrion is made to look horrible.

Hard not to believe there's a connection of some sort.