Heresy 158

[Voice]

Well. Bee drones are fertile males. bee workers are sterile females. Fertile ant drones, male or female, are winged, as is the Queen. The number of fertile Queens depends on the season. Ant workers are all sterile female. I don't know about termites.

Sure, I was mainly pointing out the queen's ability to produce a male to mate with at will

[Black Crow]

I've been sitting out most of the day with a stonking headache, but would just like to dip in again with the observation that in trying to sort out the origins of the blue-eyed lot I'm still of the view that the supposed external threat is closer in-house than some of the suggestions being made above and that we still have what appears to be the Stark family secret; the connection to Winter and the feeling that a resolution to this - along with all the other reconciliations is going to involve the existing cast rather than an outsider such as Mel's Great Other.

[Mother of Dragons]

There's no reason at all not to believe that they are indeed Craster's sons. GRRM's statement confirms the in-text reference by Stannis that they are demons made of snow and ice and cold. I'm suggesting that what animates them are Craster's sons, not by way of a blood sacrifice per se but by skinchanging and that the reason why Craster's sons are being taken is that he is [knowingly or otherwise] breeding skinchangers who are being "changed" by transferring rather than transforming them into bodies of ice and snow and cold held together by magic.

As to the girls I don't know. The world is as GRRM made it and Craster's sons are taken but not his daughters.

It does occur to me that with the exception of Arya we haven't actually seen any female skinchangers, so perhaps like haemophilia its something that's passed on through the female line without manifesting itself in the women themselves. We do of course have Arya and perhaps Danaerys as well but in both cases it can be argued that its the beasties who are triggering it. Sansa for example, deprived of Lady, doesn't appear to have developed the gift.

Not quite, Sansa has had a wolf dream to....it was in the firt book. Do I need to cite it? ( makes me groan like Tina from Bob's Burgers every time I have to find something. If you haven't watched, you should).

I remember being surprised bc was after Lady died and I was wondering whose or what wolf she was dreaming about.

[Eira Seren]

Well, really, GRRM. Broken sword indeed. The floor is covered with steel swords. Trant is slower than Christmas.

And if Syrio decides to skip his way out of the room, having decided Arya is long gone, what can Trant do to stop him? Waddle furiously in pursuit?

The whole premise of Syrio is Dead depends on the premise that "the First Sword of Braavos does not run," but all Syrio needed to do was introduce a reasonable delay for Arya, not murder a man in full plate armor.

There once was a First Sword of Braavos

Whose opponent was woefully adagio.

He told Arya to run,

Then thought he'd have some fun;

Danced away like a spate in the narrows.

Slainte!

:cheers:

Oh, sure. It was a cliche even in Kirby's day, in the sixties. So much so, I'm surprised GRRM thought of rolling it out yet again, but he apparently did, just like the guys who did Avatar did.

This seems more speculative to me. I think GRRM began with Great Britain -- primarily its history, particularly in the middle ages, but also its geography, its waves of invasions, and to some degree its mythology -- and rendered in Westeros a version of it writ much larger, and with magic.

Among novelists, Tolkien first and Vance second seem to be his direct inspirations.

Or could be down to how theorists read those narratives today :)

[Voice]

I've been sitting out most of the day with a stonking headache, but would just like to dip in again with the observation that in trying to sort out the origins of the blue-eyed lot I'm still of the view that the supposed external threat is closer in-house than some of the suggestions being made above and that we still have what appears to be the Stark family secret; the connection to Winter and the feeling that a resolution to this - along with all the other reconciliations is going to involve the existing cast rather than an outsider such as Mel's Great Other.

Sucks about the headache, know the feeling. Just wanted to chime in and stay I don't really disagree. The resolution has to come from the existing cast. It makes no sense to introduce new characters. In my mind, however, the stage has already been set, quite literally, for Ancient Others, Night's King, and his Pale Woman. There's the ever forebodingness of the Wall itself, and that curtain of light, looming over the North. There is a real and tangible entity waiting out there patiently to come a-knocking. We've heard the tales. We've remembered hearing them from many, many points of view. The curtain will open and the threat riding down on the winds of winter will be far greater than ole Crack and Pudd.

[PrettyPig]

Another thing I like to suggest (don't know if someone thought of it before) is that Lyanna was in the dornish mountains to hide her and her pregnancy from the trees, Ned didn't return the bones of his companions to prevent their memories from entering the weirwood.net. Only Lyanna was buried under a Heart Tree and we speculated before that the Winterfell Heart Tree is somehow guarded and that Bloodraven can't access its memories.

Oh, I like this.

The bigger question, then: why? Why would this be significant to those watching through the trees?

[WeaselPie]

There once was an interesting thread here

Whose members were very well read, dear.

It’s St. Paddy’s day,

I shout a Sláinte,

And share my old Nan’s soda bread. Cheers!

Apologies for the poetic license, but no apologies for the bread (or the beer).

[wolfmaid7]

As to the girls I don't know. The world is as GRRM made it and Craster's sons are taken but not his daughters.

It does occur to me that with the exception of Arya we haven't actually seen any female skinchangers, so perhaps like haemophilia its something that's passed on through the female line without manifesting itself in the women themselves. We do of course have Arya and perhaps Danaerys as well but in both cases it can be argued that its the beasties who are triggering it. Sansa for example, deprived of Lady, doesn't appear to have developed the gift.

Sansa is a Warg though,and even if she is deprived of Lady and never actually Skinchanged with her it doesn't mean that she won't take another animal.I think she was begining to have that bond with Marillion's dog.I do think the gift was already triggered in Sansa with Lady it's just that she never had time to see that through.

Perfectly true as to the first but as I say with possible exception of Danaerys and her Amazing Dragons, Arya is the only instance we know of a female skinchanger.

As to Craster's lot I'm simply suggesting that's the easiest way to explain the transferrence of his sons into those demons made of snow and ice and cold and that like haemophilia its something passed on by but not manifested in the female line.

Nah i'm still putting Sansa there and not olnly Sansa but Grislida who was a Skinchanger as well the goat lady.And given Tourmond's tale about the she bear if not true indicates that there is a culture whereby Skinchangers can and are female as well.My thing is is according to GRRM that the Others can do things with ice not ordinary ice,then that tells me that they can animate it,itself maybe even void of anything inside.

It just seems that there are a lot of parallels between the powers exhibited by the White Walkers and the Golem of Prague. The White Walkers have a type of camouflage ability akin to invisibility, and they can either raise the dead as Wights or at the very least have an association with it. The Golem of Prague was also said to have the ability to turn invisible and raise the dead. So I think GRRM is certainly referencing this folklore.

And I know that this has been referenced before and I can't recall which heretic first brought this up, but it seems clear to me that the Golems are made of frozen air. Their outer shell or armor and skeleton fits the description of solid nitrogen, which then warms to liquid nitrogen after Sam knifes Ser Puddles, and I suspect then further warms to a gaseous state. And their pale blue "blood" seems consistent with liquid oxygen which would also be pale blue. Finally the sound that their icy sword makes when it contacts Royce's metal sword is consistent with the sound made when frozen carbon dioxide or dry ice makes when it touches metal (Bernoulli principle). Also frozen CO2 would go straight from solid to gaseous form when heated, and I note that there is no mention as to what happens with Ser Puddles sword after he is melted, it probably just dissipated into mist along with the rest of him.

Aeromancers (wizards who control air) have been specifically referenced in the first book:

So I think we are looking at golems created magically by superfrozen air. Thus the White Walkers are literally a "cold wind". And if GRRM compares them to Sidhe, then as perhaps another wink and nod, Sidhe literally means wind or fairy wind in Gaelic.

I know we've previously discussed the possibility that Drogo and Rhaego's animus were used to bring Dany's dragons to life, and the possibility that their animus or souls are living a second life (or first life in the case of Rhaego) within two of her dragons, I think something similar may be happening to bring these ice golems to life. The animus (or shadows) of Craster's sons are being used to give life to the White Walkers.

I like and agree with some of this.My only issue of course is that when brokendown by the Dragonglass the WWs have bones of ice and so i believe that the whole made of "ice and snow" is correct versus them being super cooled air.

The next ofcourse is the babies souls or essence being used to animate the bodies i actually like this better than the babies skinchanging and inhabiting the bodies per se and can actually see that as viable based not only on Danys pyre but also in a way Mels shadow babies.

Dany used Fire for her ritual and Mel also used Stannis's fire to create her Shadow babies.But i think GRRM has shown us how that is being done with "the cold/Greenseer" we know ice can also burn right? So i'm thinking in his clever way he has shown us that the direct sacrifices to "The cold/greenseer" is what's taking place . I'll repost what i wrote before

"He was in the snow and in the clouds, he was a sparrow, a squirrel, an oak. A horned owl flew silently between his trees, hunting a hare; Varamyr was inside the owl, inside the hare, inside the trees. Deep below the frozen ground, earthworms burrowed blindly in the dark, and he was them as well. I am the wood, and everything that’s in it, he thought, exulting(ADWD,Prologue)

"That won't help you none when the white cold comes." Craster to Mormont.

"Gilly had spoken of the white cold as well, and she'd told them what sort of offerings Craster made to his gods......"I only thought . . . " You have no sons, you expose them, Gilly said as much, you leave them in the woods, that's why you have only wives here, and daughters who grow up to be wives (Sam ASOS).

"A mother can't leave her son,or else she's cursed forever,Not a son.We saved him,Sam and me Please,please,m'lord. We saved him from the cold (ADWD,Jon)

They saved him from exposure.

V6 represents the Skinchanging class of which the Greenseers are the most powerful i am struck by the connection that i feel GRRM is making through V6's and other subsequent quotes.We start with his exclamation after inhabiting nature " I am the wood" to Sam's reveal that Craster exposes his sons by leaving them "in the woods" and finally Gilly's statement that Sam and her saved her son "from the cold" (white cold).Subtly GRRM is telling us who is recieving the sacrifices just as they did thousands of years ago.

I agree. GRRM was pretty specific last night in saying that dragonglass broke the magic spell holding Sere Puddles together. The walkers are not an alien species but something created by magic and given life by the animus or souls of Craster's sons.

This wording i can accept ,though i will say the wives are both wrong and right.

Yeah, doesn't sound crackpot to me either. I've suggested a similar process going on. Wights clearly demonstrate a hive mind when they attack the Fist. And I think it highly likely Bran glimpsed something sexual when he looked north and north and north in his falling dream.

The only other image in that dream that makes him cry out is that of Jamie's face. Clearly, given what he saw just before his defenestration, it makes sense that such images frighten him.

I've suggested that we may have a grotesque scenario of a Pale Woman, ingesting human children with her womb, and as she does so, writhing in the simultaneous throws of sexual pleasure and agonies of childbirth, a male partner emerges from the Ice to couple with her. Basically, a reversal of Mel's shadow baby process.

Remember, Bran liked the scary stories. What he saw beyond the curtain of light in the heart of winter had to be disturbing - to him. And sexual imagery disturbs him.

ETA: Biologically speaking, most hives are composed entirely of females. Ants, bees, and termites are all female. The queens only produce a male to mate with, and they do it at will. I think that is what Night's Queen is doing.

That must have been some pretty amazing porno to scare the child so.

I've been sitting out most of the day with a stonking headache, but would just like to dip in again with the observation that in trying to sort out the origins of the blue-eyed lot I'm still of the view that the supposed external threat is closer in-house than some of the suggestions being made above and that we still have what appears to be the Stark family secret; the connection to Winter and the feeling that a resolution to this - along with all the other reconciliations is going to involve the existing cast rather than an outsider such as Mel's Great Other.

While i think Mel is wrong in her interpretation i calling them gods i do think she is right in some respects.What she has been describing is what we've talked about so many times here the "The first war" the natural War one embodied by the Oak and Holly King myth/The greenseers.It is that Teutonic/primodial battle of ice and fire that ends or starts an age and determine the lengths of the seasons.Ofcourse in this story they are at the top of the Skinchanging tier,but in this story the problem happens when the eternal factors try to manipulate these forces wherby we get people wanting and endless Summer.And we've actually know of factions that want a Summer that would never end,we have not heard any Winter envoy saying we want and endless Winter.That's more propaganda.There maybe but we have never heard it.And contrary to belief Melisandre recognzes "Two gods" she just thinks one of them is evil.

"The war," she affirmed. "There are two, Onion Knight. Not seven, not one, not a hundred or a thousand. Two! Do you think I crossed half the world to put yet another vain king on yet another empty throne? The war has been waged since time began, and before it is done, all men must choose where they will stand. On one side is R'hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow. Against him stands the Great Other whose name may not be spoken, the Lord of Darkness, the Soul of Ice, the God of Night and Terror

"The way the world is made. The truth is all around you, plain to behold. The night is dark and full of terrors, the day bright and beautiful and full of hope. One is black, the other white. There is ice and there is fire. Hate and love. Bitter and sweet. Male and female. Pain and pleasure. Winter and summer. Evil and good." She took a step toward him. "Death and life. Everywhere, opposites. Everywhere, the war."Melissandre to Davos

So i do think it will involve not only R'hollor but the Great Other to resolve what's happening but unlike Mel we know these forces to be the Greenseers even if she has no clue that they aren't gods.Just really gifted humans.

ETA: Happy St Patricks Day everyone don't kil the brain cells too much :cheers:

[Black Crow]

Sucks about the headache, know the feeling. Just wanted to chime in and stay I don't really disagree. The resolution has to come from the existing cast. It makes no sense to introduce new characters. In my mind, however, the stage has already been set, quite literally, for Ancient Others, Night's King, and his Pale Woman. There's the ever forebodingness of the Wall itself, and that curtain of light, looming over the North. There is a real and tangible entity waiting out there patiently to come a-knocking. We've heard the tales. We've remembered hearing them from many, many points of view. The curtain will open and the threat riding down on the winds of winter will be far greater than ole Crack and Pudd.

Not necessarily, I think part of the problem in trying to figure out what's really going on comes from trying to shoehorn everything into the same mould. An alternative explanation for example is given in the World Book for the white lady, which if true or nearly true resolves the problems associated with identifying her as a female white walker.

I've long subscribed to the theory of a hierarchy of demons when it comes to the blue-eyed lot, but where we differ is that I don't see "ancient others" sitting above the white walkers, but rather "renegade" humans and children working magic.

[wolfmaid7]

You all may find this interview by Elio and Linda interesting on Reddit

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2zd5yf/spoilers_all_amaa_w_elio_linda_of_westerosorg/

7. Can you provide any information on the "The Pact of Ice and Fire," mentioned only once in the TWOIAF (pg. 141)? Did you have any discussion about it with George? Was any additional detail about it cut from TWOIAF, as far as you know? Or was there only ever that one sentence?

For space reasons, details around the pact -- particularly certain scurrilous details from one Mushroom, involving

Prince Jacaerys allegedly falling in love with and secretly marrying Lord Cregan’s bastard half-sister

-- had to be cut. However, the core of it is as it says in the book: Cregan agreed to support Rhaenyra for the promise of a Targaryen bride.

ETA: There's some other interesting bits about the Black Stone and about Yandel's reporting of Historical records etc.

[JNR]

I do think that GRRM is writing ASOIAF as a direct response to Tolkein's LOTR, but I think he is consciously creating an epic fantasy which avoids aping Tolkein's work (as much of modern epic fantasy seems to do).

Sure. Which is why I said he started with Great Britain and its history, and asked himself "How can I make this more interesting?"

What he did not do is start with Tolkien and ask himself "What spin can I put on this?"

Nevertheless, Tolkien is his undoubted primary influence from the world of fiction. That he is familiar with and alludes to other F/SF content and writers including David Eddings, Robert Jordan, Phyllis Eisenstein, Roger Zelazny, etc., is also past debate because he's said so outright on several occasions.

Meanwhile, the Kipling, Conrad, et al influences, though conceivable, are far more speculative and never to my knowledge mentioned by him at any time, anywhere, in any interview.

If someone can please direct me to the interview in which GRRM talks about Conrad's influence on his fantasy, I would appreciate it. All the Heretical remarks about the heart of darkness, Bloodraven/Kurtz, etc., were not intended to apply to Asshai, where Bloodraven certainly doesn't live. It's always seemed odd to me Heresy would interpret that as some sort of confirmation, when it was the wrong side of the planet.

Similarly, the cases that GRRM was "clearly influenced" by things like the Tam Lin story, or Bran the Blessed, do not seem overwhelming to me. I read those claims, but am only occasionally persuaded; mostly they remain Schroedinger's cats, and exist in a state of quantum flux.

[YUNG LYANNA]

soo, i binge read this thread every once in a while & never really post, but I would just like to point out that female skinchangers are a thing...

from Varamyr's prologue:

Not all skinchangers felt the same, however. Once, when Lump was ten, Haggon had taken him to a gathering of such. The wargs were the most numerous in that company, the wolf-brothers, but the boy had found the others stranger and more fascinating. Borroq looked so much like his boar that all he lacked was tusks, Orell had his eagle, Briar her shadowcat (the moment he saw them, Lump wanted a shadowcat of his own), the goat woman Grisella …

[JNR]

You all may find this interview by Elio and Linda interesting on Reddit

I did indeed find it interesting.

This bit in particular:

Are there events/characters of TWOIAF that you believe are meant to act as historical backdrops to future events in the story (e.g. the Valyrian/Targaryen etymology of the name Serra (Found in Jaehaerys I's daughter Viserra) acting as a naming precedent for characters such as Serra Mopatis)? If so, might you reveal a name, character or event from TWOIAF that you think has implications for the story going forward?

“Archmaester Rigney once wrote that history is a wheel, for the nature of man is fundamentally unchanging. What has happened before will perforce happen again, he said.”

This World book reference, as quoted by Ran and Linda in their answer, is certainly a GRRM hat-tip to James Rigney, aka Robert Jordan, aka the author of the Wheel of Time series. But I imagine there's a deeper truth to it than that.

[Voice]

That must have been some pretty amazing porno to scare the child so.

What else could have? Imagine the many horrors he has already been through, and found anything but frightening. Sleeping in the crypts as Winterfell was killed and burned, Cold Hands, Bloodraven, Leaf, wedding a tree, etc. Then, he's also visited incredible horrors upon poor Hodor, with merely a shrug.

[Black Crow]

If someone can please direct me to the interview in which GRRM talks about Conrad's influence on his fantasy, I would appreciate it. All the Heretical remarks about the heart of darkness, Bloodraven/Kurtz, etc., were not intended to apply to Asshai, where Bloodraven certainly doesn't live. It's always seemed odd to me Heresy would interpret that as some sort of confirmation, when it was the wrong side of the planet.

I don't recall an interview [although there is that reference to going up the river to the Heart of Darkness in the World Book, but if you are familiar with Conrad's book the parallels with the Bloodraven passages are inescapable. If you're not familiar I suggest reading it with ADwD in mind.

[Voice]

Not necessarily, I think part of the problem in trying to figure out what's really going on comes from trying to shoehorn everything into the same mould. An alternative explanation for example is given in the World Book for the white lady, which if true or nearly true resolves the problems associated with identifying her as a female white walker.

I've long subscribed to the theory of a hierarchy of demons when it comes to the blue-eyed lot, but where we differ is that I don't see "ancient others" sitting above the white walkers, but rather "renegade" humans and children working magic.

Aside from the children being part of their ranks, we're not too far apart any more. I see the ancients as otherized First Men. And they were no doubt renegades.

[JNR]

soo, i binge read this thread every once in a while & never really post, but I would just like to point out that female skinchangers are a thing...

from Varamyr's prologue:

Yep. Arya also skinchanges a cat in order to see the Kindly Man while she's blind.

I also interpret warging as a form of skinchanging, and Arya certainly does that with Nymeria. Also, GRRM has said all the Stark kids are wargs, meaning so is Sansa.

[Voice]

soo, i binge read this thread every once in a while & never really post, but I would just like to point out that female skinchangers are a thing...

from Varamyr's prologue:

Nice catch indeed. Glad you spoke up Ms. Lurker ;)

[Black Crow]

I sit corrected :cool4:

[Matthew.]

There's no reason at all not to believe that they are indeed Craster's sons. GRRM's statement confirms the in-text reference by Stannis that they are demons made of snow and ice and cold. I'm suggesting that what animates them are Craster's sons, not by way of a blood sacrifice per se but by skinchanging and that the reason why Craster's sons are being taken is that he is [knowingly or otherwise] breeding skinchangers who are being "changed" by transferring rather than transforming them into bodies of ice and snow and cold held together by magic.

Well, I agree that Craster is breeding skinchangers (I believe the gift allows the WWs to control the wight horde), but my crackpot interpretation of the white walkers is that Craster's sons are themselves being skinchanged into, and having their consciousness displaced by the spirits in the weirwoods--in other words, I think they're being used as vessels by "the Old Gods," and that it's this housing of a foreign mind that causes their anatomy to become magically distorted, and why they speak the True Tongue.

I also believe this is the reason that Bran is warned against trying to call back Eddard, and why House Stark uses iron in the crypts to ward against spirits.

And I'll preemptively say that I don't consider this to be incompatible with the idea that the WWs aren't dead--they aren't dead, they're a different sort of life, created to temporarily allow the residents of Otherworld (weirnet) to roam the earth.