Heresy 158

[Eira Seren]

I do indeed wonder. Syrio's death is one of those things that seems a lot more speculative than is commonly believed.

I mean, here you have an incredibly deadly swordsman. He's just taken out five guardsmen alone. With a practice sword. He now faces... Meryn Trant, the Terror of Nowhere and Nothing, whose primary claim to fame is that he blew whatever guy he needed to blow in order to get into the KG.

Trant is in full plate armor, slow, and on his best day, mediocre with a blade. Syrio is fast as a cat and hyper-skilled. The floor is littered with steel swords, any of which Syrio can pick up long before Trant can stop him.

Syrio's goal is not to kill Trant. Syrio simply wants to occupy Trant long enough to give Arya time to get away.

All we know of the outcome of that plan, really, is that Syrio succeeded (because she did get away), Trant doesn't die, and there's been no word whatever of Syrio since.

Under these circumstances, does Syrio die?

GRRM, when asked, said "Draw your own conclusions." I have to chuckle at that. Just like the Hound did, on the show, when Arya suggested Syrio was dead last season.

There was a bit more to that,

Then people asked questions. Someone asked if Syrio was dead. And he said to "draw your own conclusions" based on the fact that his sword was broken, etc, which I took to mean yes.

Very hard to say, at least imo, how much of that is actually suggesting that a broken sword means Syrio's dead, or not. The "draw your own conclusions" at least sounds like something GRRM would say, but the rest is just the interpretation. Hard to parse at times, but I don't our fearless writer gave all that much away to one side or the other.

[Black Crow]

This seems an overly literal interpretation of the phrase "Craster's sons," at least as I would use it. If the basic premise is "white walkers are being made from Craster's sacrificed sons," I think this leaves us a degree of wiggle room, and it would still be consistent with a belief among the wives that 'the sons' roam the Haunted Forest. Maybe they were nothing more than a blood sacrifice, or maybe it's closer to what seems to have been depicted in the show, which is that they're converted into white walkers--they start as things of flesh and blood, but grow into something else.

There's no reason at all not to believe that they are indeed Craster's sons. GRRM's statement confirms the in-text reference by Stannis that they are demons made of snow and ice and cold. I'm suggesting that what animates them are Craster's sons, not by way of a blood sacrifice per se but by skinchanging and that the reason why Craster's sons are being taken is that he is [knowingly or otherwise] breeding skinchangers who are being "changed" by transferring rather than transforming them into bodies of ice and snow and cold held together by magic.

[Voice]

There's no reason at all not to believe that they are indeed Craster's sons. GRRM's statement confirms the in-text reference by Stannis that they are demons made of snow and ice and cold. I'm suggesting that what animates them are Craster's sons, not by way of a blood sacrifice per se but by skinchanging and that the reason why Craster's sons are being taken is that he is [knowingly or otherwise] breeding skinchangers who are being "changed" by transferring rather than transforming them into bodies of ice and snow and cold held together by magic.

No need to complicate the story BC ;)

[Eira Seren]

No need to complicate the story BC ;)

It seems to suggest a certain progression though... An evolution of sorts?

[wolfmaid7]

There's no reason at all not to believe that they are indeed Craster's sons. GRRM's statement confirms the in-text reference by Stannis that they are demons made of snow and ice and cold. I'm suggesting that what animates them are Craster's sons, not by way of a blood sacrifice per se but by skinchanging and that the reason why Craster's sons are being taken is that he is [knowingly or otherwise] breeding skinchangers who are being "changed" by transferring rather than transforming them into bodies of ice and snow and cold held together by magic.

I think this one is a bit much, you are saying Craster's babies are now Skinchanging ice and snow? Ok then why aren't any of the wives/daughters Skinchangers.The gift can't only be in the males and we hear nothing of the women of Craster's or even Craster being one.

[Black Crow]

Not at all

GRRM says the walkers are made of ice, per the Tommy Patterson email - "the Sidhe made of ice"; Stannis description of them as "demons made of snow and ice and cold" and now GRRM's reference to them being held together by magic.

We also know that they are intelligent and sociable [in the technical sense] and like it or not we have the Craster's sons links.

It therefore seems perfectly straightforward that rather than blood on the altar stuff the ice warriors are indeed animated through Craster's sons being changed [not of themselves but by whoever is creating the walkers] or rather transferred from their human bodies into their icy ones.

[Voice]

It seems to suggest a certain progression though... An evolution of sorts?

I was just joking :D but I suppose it could.

One thing about golems though, they don't speak, and our white walkers do...

[Eira Seren]

I was just joking :D but I suppose it could.

One thing about golems though, they don't speak, and our white walkers do...

Oh, there's me being all literal 😄

[Black Crow]

I was just joking :D but I suppose it could.

One thing about golems though, they don't speak, and our white walkers do...

That's because "our" white walkers have Craster's sons inside them. :commie: :commie: :commie:

[Black Crow]

...which is also, of itself, relevant to the broader current discussion on identity.

[Black Crow]

Very hard to say, at least imo, how much of that is actually suggesting that a broken sword means Syrio's dead, or not. The "draw your own conclusions" at least sounds like something GRRM would say, but the rest is just the interpretation. Hard to parse at times, but I don't our fearless writer gave all that much away to one side or the other.

And on that point of identity, thanks for posting that. I remembered it but not the actual words used, and yes context being everything I'd say that gnomic reply to the question of whether he is still alive can be interpreted the way I suggested; that the Syrio Forel who taught Arya water dancing and philosophy is dead, gone and aint coming back. However that doesn't preclude Arya's teacher re-appearing as Jaqen H'gar and now Pate, with each successive identity being discarded along the way.

[Voice]

Oh, there's me being all literal

Haha it's ok. Just like bustin BC's chops when he gets complicates the story LOL

[Voice]

There's no reason at all not to believe that they are indeed Craster's sons. GRRM's statement confirms the in-text reference by Stannis that they are demons made of snow and ice and cold. I'm suggesting that what animates them are Craster's sons, not by way of a blood sacrifice per se but by skinchanging and that the reason why Craster's sons are being taken is that he is [knowingly or otherwise] breeding skinchangers who are being "changed" by transferring rather than transforming them into bodies of ice and snow and cold held together by magic.

Just reread this with a more studious mindset, and I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this part as well. You think Craster is breeding skinchangers? As in, his sons have the gift to slip into another being's skin?

Or do you mean Craster is knowingly or unknowingly breeding vessels that can be skinchanged into by some other entity?

[Black Crow]

I don't think that Craster knew he was breeding skinchangers. After all they never stuck around as long as say Varamyr did before he realised he had the "gift". I think that so far as Craster was concerned he wasn't going much beyond knowing his boys were what the gods wanted.

What I'm suggesting was that his sons were being harvested because they had the skinchanger gene and therefore could be changed or rather transferred to animate the demons of snow and ice and cold.

[Voice]

I don't think that Craster knew he was breeding skinchangers. After all they never stuck around as long as say Varamyr did before he realised he had the "gift". I think that so far as Craster was concerned he wasn't going much beyond knowing his boys were what the gods wanted.

What I'm suggesting was that his sons were being harvested because they had the skinchanger gene and therefore could be changed or rather transferred to animate the demons of snow and ice and cold.

I'm with you on Craster only being concerned with "being right" with his gods. I just don't think he knows what the fawk they are, or what he's really doing.

If his sons carry the skinchanger gene, then what about wolfmaid's point above... that we don't see the skinchanger gene manifest itself in his daughter-wives?

[WeaselPie]

I don't think that Craster knew he was breeding skinchangers. After all they never stuck around as long as say Varamyr did before he realised he had the "gift". I think that so far as Craster was concerned he wasn't going much beyond knowing his boys were what the gods wanted.

What I'm suggesting was that his sons were being harvested because they had the skinchanger gene and therefore could be changed or rather transferred to animate the demons of snow and ice and cold.

If the worst abomination, according to Haggon, is to seize the body of another man, it follows that there is a reason for this, and likely a history of this happening with horrible results.

I also think it's pretty clear in the novels that the White Walkers are not the ones running the show, re: VotFM's Other Hierarchy. AGoT

prologue: "They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them . . . four . . . five . . . "

Same with mating wolf with wolf (*cough* BR) and eating human flesh (*ahem*). Point is, we know these things happen with "ordinary" skinchangers. But for these three things specifically to be verboten, there was likely a precedent/story of origin.

ETA I do like the "Golem" theory, creatures actually made of a natural inanimate element (ice/mud) animated with something supernatural (Other magic/shems placed in the mouth). Lots of precedent for this in all sorts of creation myths (including Judeo-Christian - dust/breath of God) and the Celtic "The gods and goddesses then created a man, a woman and the animals from bark from the oak tree that grew on the land."

This would also be close to GRRM's heart from Marvel comic books.

[Black Crow]

As to the girls I don't know. The world is as GRRM made it and Craster's sons are taken but not his daughters.

It does occur to me that with the exception of Arya we haven't actually seen any female skinchangers, so perhaps like haemophilia its something that's passed on through the female line without manifesting itself in the women themselves. We do of course have Arya and perhaps Danaerys as well but in both cases it can be argued that its the beasties who are triggering it. Sansa for example, deprived of Lady, doesn't appear to have developed the gift.

[Voice]

As to the girls I don't know. The world is as GRRM made it and Craster's sons are taken but not his daughters.

It does occur to me that with the exception of Arya we haven't actually seen any female skinchangers, so perhaps like haemophilia its something that's passed on through the female line without manifesting itself in the women themselves. We do of course have Arya and perhaps Danaerys as well but in both cases it can be argued that its the beasties who are triggering it. Sansa for example, deprived of Lady, doesn't appear to have developed the gift.

Sure. But the wolves triggered it for all of them, not just Arya.

Is there something besides the sacrifice of the sons that makes you think there might be some skinchangers at his Keep? I can't think of any reason to think he or his children have that gift...

[WeaselPie]

I don't believe it's a stretch to consider the hierarchy similar to a hive. Very few breeding "queens", several breeding male drones, and a legion of sterile "workers."

I thought BC was saying the children are vessels, not skinchangers themselves.

This is reminding me of Gorgon. BRB, let me go read.

K, Gorgon, a few quick things (since I see GRRM reading Marvel more often than scholarly papers):

Gorgon is an Inhuman

At the beginning of the Kree-Skrull War, millions of years ago in Earth time, the alien Kree established a station on the planet Uranus, a strategic position between the Kree and Skrull empires. Through their work at this station, they discovered that sentient life on nearby Earth had genetic potential invested in it by the alien Celestials. Intrigued, the Kree began to experiment on Earth's then-primitive Homo sapiens to produce the genetically advanced Inhuman race. Their goal was apparently twofold—to investigate possible ways of circumventing their own evolutionary stagnation, and to create a powerful mutant race of soldiers for use against the Skrulls

The Inhuman's awaken/enhance their powers with a Mist called

The Terrigen Mist is a natural mutagen, arising as a vapor from the Terrigen Crystals, which are able to alter Inhuman biology. The Mists were discovered by the Inhuman geneticist Randac approximately 25,000 years ago. He immersed himself in the Mists and gained mental powers comparable to the Eternals.[1] Sometimes the mutated subjects gain superhuman abilities

[Black Crow]

Sure. But the wolves triggered it for all of them, not just Arya.

Is there something besides the sacrifice of the sons that makes you think there might be some skinchangers at his Keep? I can't think of any reason to think he or his children have that gift...

Perfectly true as to the first but as I say with possible exception of Danaerys and her Amazing Dragons, Arya is the only instance we know of a female skinchanger.

As to Craster's lot I'm simply suggesting that's the easiest way to explain the transferrence of his sons into those demons made of snow and ice and cold and that like haemophilia its something passed on by but not manifested in the female line.