Heresy 158

[Eira Seren]

hey Eira, did you know St Brigit is also credited with inventing kennings and most associated with songs of grief? Cool Stuff. Anyway.

I didn't! Interesting!

The flower business reminds me a bit also of Blodeuwedd, but only a little, here and there.

[markg171]

That's a big teaser. You think it's the Great Other? I haven't checked your theories yet, but do you think we've met the GO yet, or who/what would be in control. I don't think we know yet, the horn may help with that. I'm assuming he's older than the Night's King.

You think it's possible that the "Old Gods"/weirwoods are like a pantheon with Zeus figure as Great Other? I was interested in the fact that gods is plural, so its not monotheistic, but the old gods aren't named.

I dont remember if I read this in Heresy or another thread, but someone said the drowned god was a minion of the GO. I'm so fascinated with the North & hope we read more about it next book.

That was Moqorro in A Dance With Dragons

“Your Drowned God is a demon,” the black priest Moqorro said afterward. “He is no more than a thrall of the Other, the dark god whose name must not be spoken.”

[Eira Seren]

In an interruption to our advertised program I'm watching a feature on Sky Atlantic, providing a catch up on the HBO series thus far and featuring interviews with [among others] GRRM, who has just confirmed that when Sam pinked Ser Puddles "he broke the spell holding him together."

:cheers:

[Matthew.]

Except for one thing and it always pegs on this.....How do the wives come by this knowledge? It is the belief of the wives that have absolutely nothing to support it other than what wifey on the left says.Back to the initial with all do respect it isn't a literal interpretation of a phrase.Its two different processes period.

This is either mis-communication (or misunderstanding) on my part, or again, what I feel to be an overly literal interpretation of the phrase "Craster's sons." In my opinion, whether Craster's sons are a blood sacrifice used to fuel the creation of a new life that could not exist without Craster's sons, or are being transformed into beings of ice is not an important distinction, and in both cases it's understandable that Craster's wives might figuratively view the end result as their "sons."

What is an important distinction is whether or not Craster's sons are playing any role in the creation of the WWs at all. Obviously, if the sons are just dying of exposure, and the white walkers are animated by some means that has no element of human sacrifice, that's something else entirely.

[Mother of Dragons]

I am expecting Jon to complete his crypt dream while in a coma...

...and i think i've had one too many glasses of homemade wine.

I think so too because just as Jon is about to finish his crypt dream, you know he's going to wake up from his coma, right? ;)

[Eira Seren]

I am expecting Jon to complete his crypt dream while in a coma, which is also where i think he will be visited by his version of "the grey lady" "lady of the mist" and Mists in this story can mean memories.The lady that would appear from the mists will be his Lyanna who will give him his "cold kiss" thus birthing him again to his new life as Winter King.

We talked about this a bit before and i think it's dependant on whose on the otherside calling and whose hand you grasp.To me Bran one his eye was opened was being pulled by two different entity.One represented by the Weirwoods (who i believe is GRRM and his ilk) and the other is represented by the 3ec.And i believe a bit of deception happened where Bran thought that he was heading North to see the Crow,when in fact it was BR drawing him.Once the gate is open you can't help powers from flocking ,then it becomes a matter of choice.

Jon had his eyes open on the pass down the road we have Mel asking to be his mentor,we also have Val hanging on him a bit.But alas none of them got their chance because boom he got stabbed.They still may make a play for him who knows but i like the idea that his choice falls elsewhere.

We see this also with Arya though hers takes a bit more explaining and i think i've had one too many glasses of homemade wine.

Huh, that's interesting. Reminds me of Jamie's dream of his mother, a bit.

What do you make of Jon giving Bran a kiss before leaving for the wall?

[Eira Seren]

I was sort of looking for a door opening to put a thought into the stream. Starting working backwards and my favorite Cajun provided the key.

When the series (books) talks about the opening of the third eye and considering the discussion of late about Bran and which side of the fence he will fall (good or bad). Since magic is concerned and is most likely associated with weirwood paste and the opening of one's third eye.....doesn't it stand to reason when we consider the "hinges of the world"; also based on magic, that it's a 50/50 chance that when your 3rd eye opening occurs, one can find themself grasping ICE or FIRE. Please don't check the grammar in that last statment...just go with the flow (a stream of consciousness).

To me this helps to address the unpredictablity on the ebbing and flowing of majic that is occuring.

Could be. Though I don't know if it might be tied more to certain families going one way or the other.

[Mother of Dragons]

If you haven't read that chapter, you should. It's right here. It's a good read -- the best sample chapter from WoW I've read so far, of about half a dozen.

And Phario Forel isn't just similar as names go; he is described as a playwright with "the bloodiest quill in Braavos."

His play The Bloody Hand is a fictionalized account of the events in King's Landing right around the time Syrio Forel ostensibly died, in which Tyrion is made to look horrible.

Hard not to believe there's a connection of some sort.

I agree, and I gave up on Syrio after ADWD because I accepted he fulfilled his purpose and was gone. I read more Arya POVs from CoK last night, and it makes sense what BC said about the Jaqen theory. Otherwise, how did Jaqen know who she was without laying eyes on her before. If Phario was in KL when Syrio died, it makes you wonder if he and Arya will make a connection, as he and Arya would have common enemies.

I dont know, but I think, like you, the name coming up again is suggestive for something more.

[Mother of Dragons]

That was Moqorro in A Dance With Dragons

Ahh, ok thanks- I've been trying to read Sam/Jon/Bran POVs in AFFC & Dance to try and keep up with you guys. Some of you can quote ASOIAF like some ppl quote the bible.

[markg171]

Ahh, ok thanks- I've been trying to read Sam/Jon/Bran POVs in AFFC & Dance to try and keep up with you guys. Some of you can quote ASOIAF like some ppl quote the bible.

Dunno about other posters, but I just have all the books in PDF form on my laptop. I don't actually know the books by heart, I just search through the books with CTRL + F for the relevant quotes and then copy and paste them into my posts

[wolfmaid7]

This is either mis-communication (or misunderstanding) on my part, or again, what I feel to be an overly literal interpretation of the phrase "Craster's sons." In my opinion, whether Craster's sons are a blood sacrifice used to fuel the creation of a new life that could not exist without Craster's sons, or are being transformed into beings of ice is not an important distinction, and in both cases it's understandable that Craster's wives might figuratively view the end result as their "sons."

What is an important distinction is whether or not Craster's sons are playing any role in the creation of the WWs at all. Obviously, if the sons are just dying of exposure, and the white walkers are animated by some means that has no element of human sacrifice, that's something else entirely.

Got you. I am of the latter where they have nothing at all to do with the WW creation and they are "dying of exposure."However,that is not to say that their sacrifices in spirit aren't being accepted to which i will point this out.

"He was in the snow and in the clouds, he was a sparrow, a squirrel, an oak. A horned owl flew silently between his trees, hunting a hare; Varamyr was inside the owl, inside the hare, inside the trees. Deep below the frozen ground, earthworms burrowed blindly in the dark, and he was them as well. I am the wood, and everything that’s in it, he thought, exulting(ADWD,Prologue)

"That won't help you none when the white cold comes." Craster to Mormont.

"Gilly had spoken of the white cold as well, and she'd told them what sort of offerings Craster made to his gods......"I only thought . . . " You have no sons, you expose them, Gilly said as much, you leave them in the woods, that's why you have only wives here, and daughters who grow up to be wives (Sam ASOS).

"A mother can't leave her son,or else she's cursed forever,Not a son.We saved him,Sam and me Please,please,m'lord. We saved him from the cold (ADWD,Jon)

They saved him from exposure.

V6 represents the Skinchanging class of which the Greenseers are the mpst powerful i am struck by the connection that i feel GRRM is making through V6's and other subsequent quotes.We start with his exclamation after inhabiting nature " I am the wood" to Sam's reveal that Craster exposes his sons by leaving them "in the woods" and finally Gilly's statement that Sam and her saved the babies "from the cold" (white cold).Subtly GRRM is telling us who is recieving the sacrifices just as they did thousands of years ago.

I think so too because just as Jon is about to finish his crypt dream, you know he's going to wake up from his coma, right? ;)

Dang straight!!!

Huh, that's interesting. Reminds me of Jamie's dream of his mother, a bit.

What do you make of Jon giving Bran a kiss before leaving for the wall?

The Jon kiss to Bran i missed, i got to re-read that.

[Eira Seren]

Got you. I am of the latter where they have nothing at all to do with the WW creation and they are "dying of exposure."However,that is not to say that their sacrifices in spirit aren't being accepted to which i will point this out.

"He was in the snow and in the clouds, he was a sparrow, a squirrel, an oak. A horned owl flew silently between his trees, hunting a hare; Varamyr was inside the owl, inside the hare, inside the trees. Deep below the frozen ground, earthworms burrowed blindly in the dark, and he was them as well. I am the wood, and everything thats in it, he thought, exulting(ADWD,Prologue)

"That won't help you none when the white cold comes." Craster to Mormont.

"Gilly had spoken of the white cold as well, and she'd told them what sort of offerings Craster made to his gods......"I only thought . . . " You have no sons, you expose them, Gilly said as much, you leave them in the woods, that's why you have only wives here, and daughters who grow up to be wives (Sam ASOS).

"A mother can't leave her son,or else she's cursed forever,Not a son.We saved him,Sam and me Please,please,m'lord. We saved him from the cold (ADWD,Jon)

They saved him from exposure.

V6 represents the Skinchanging class of which the Greenseers are the mpst powerful i am struck by the connection that i feel GRRM is making through V6's and other subsequent quotes.We start with his exclamation after inhabiting nature " I am the wood" to Sam's reveal that Craster exposes his sons by leaving them "in the woods" and finally Gilly's statement that Sam and her saved the babies "from the cold" (white cold).Subtly GRRM is telling us who is recieving the sacrifices just as they did thousands of years ago.

Dang straight!!!

The Jon kiss to Bran i missed, i got to re-read that.

It's Also the chapter where bran is turning crow-like.

[wolfmaid7]

It's Also the chapter where bran is turning crow-like.

Ah yes i remember he kisses him before he leaves the room. I think that one is love from brother to brother.It didn't have any supernatural effect on him to my knowledge .I maybe wrong.Though its nice imagery.

[Eira Seren]

Ahh, ok thanks- I've been trying to read Sam/Jon/Bran POVs in AFFC & Dance to try and keep up with you guys. Some of you can quote ASOIAF like some ppl quote the bible.

Yep. Me too at times! Plus I can't get multiquote to work half the time on my phone. We're happy to go back over stuff though :)

[Eira Seren]

Ah yes i remember he kisses him before he leaves the room. I think that one is love from brother to brother.It didn't have any supernatural effect on him to my knowledge .I maybe wrong.Though its nice imagery.

Am not really sure right now either, but noticed it this time through.

[superunknown5]

On the subject of Dawn, there's a very brief passage in AFFC that's one of my favorites. Jaime, struggling to stay awake during his long vigil, remembers being knighted by the SAD man himself. I think it's very significant. If we're looking into Ser Arthur Dayne it's worth taking a closer look:

It had been years since his last vigil. And I was younger then, a boy of fifteen years. He had worn no armor then, only a plain white tunic. The sept where he'd spent the night was not a third as large as any of the Great Sept's seven transepts. Jaime had laid his sword across the Warrior's knees, piled his armor at his feet, and knelt upon the rough stone floor of the altar. When dawn came his knees were raw and bloody. "All knights must bleed, Jaime," Ser Arthur Dayne had said, when he saw. "Blood is the seal of our devotion." With dawn he tapped him on the shoulder; the pale blade was so sharp that even that light touch cut through Jaime's tunic, so he bled anew. He never felt it. A boy knelt; a knight rose. - Jaime, AFFC

Clear allusions to Jon Snow, here IMO.

"He never felt it."

"He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold."

"A boy knelt; a knight rose."

"Kill the boy and let the man be born."

"All knights must bleed/blood is the seal of our devotion. That light touch cut through his tunic, so he bled anew"

"Jon twisted away from the knife, just enough so it barely grazed his skin. He cut me. When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers."

Also, Dawn's properties are interesting. EXTREMELY sharp, maybe even sharper than Valyrian steel. And it's described as a "pale blade," "pale as milkglass," "alive with light". Sounds at least superficially similar to the description of the Other's sword in the AGoT prologue.

It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it almost seemed to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor. - Prologue, AGoT

[JNR]

If Phario was in KL when Syrio died, it makes you wonder if he and Arya will make a connection, as he and Arya would have common enemies.

I do indeed wonder. Syrio's death is one of those things that seems a lot more speculative than is commonly believed.

I mean, here you have an incredibly deadly swordsman. He's just taken out five guardsmen alone. With a practice sword. He now faces... Meryn Trant, the Terror of Nowhere and Nothing, whose primary claim to fame is that he blew whatever guy he needed to blow in order to get into the KG.

Trant is in full plate armor, slow, and on his best day, mediocre with a blade. Syrio is fast as a cat and hyper-skilled. The floor is littered with steel swords, any of which Syrio can pick up long before Trant can stop him.

Syrio's goal is not to kill Trant. Syrio simply wants to occupy Trant long enough to give Arya time to get away.

All we know of the outcome of that plan, really, is that Syrio succeeded (because she did get away), Trant doesn't die, and there's been no word whatever of Syrio since.

Under these circumstances, does Syrio die?

GRRM, when asked, said "Draw your own conclusions." I have to chuckle at that. Just like the Hound did, on the show, when Arya suggested Syrio was dead last season.

[Voice]

Dunno about other posters, but I just have all the books in PDF form on my laptop. I don't actually know the books by heart, I just search through the books with CTRL + F for the relevant quotes and then copy and paste them into my posts

Some of my pdf's aren't searchable for some reason... sucks.

[Voice]

On the subject of Dawn, there's a very brief passage in AFFC that's one of my favorites. Jaime, struggling to stay awake during his long vigil, remembers being knighted by the SAD man himself. I think it's very significant. If we're looking into Ser Arthur Dayne it's worth taking a closer look:

Clear allusions to Jon Snow, here IMO.

"He never felt it."

"He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold."

"A boy knelt; a knight rose."

"Kill the boy and let the man be born."

"All knights must bleed/blood is the seal of our devotion. That light touch cut through his tunic, so he bled anew"

"Jon twisted away from the knife, just enough so it barely grazed his skin. He cut me. When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers."

Also, Dawn's properties are interesting. EXTREMELY sharp, maybe even sharper than Valyrian steel. And it's described as a "pale blade," "pale as milkglass," "alive with light". Sounds at least superficially similar to the description of the Other's sword in the AGoT prologue.

I like all of this imagery and perspective superunknown. A few threads ago we were talking about Dawn and how that sword might be LB. I know it's an old idea on the interwebs, but I think the idea that was emerging was a new one. If the Last Hero developed split personality disorder (I know, I know, I'm the only one really preaching this...) as the long night began and became Night's King, it would make sense for his sword to be both Lightbringer, and taken away from him and given to a non-Stark hero of the time. That would account for Dawn being so unique, so magically sharp, and coming from a light-bringing star's fall (quite evocative of Lucifer, and Lucifer is Lightbringer has a pretty interesting thread going that touches on this).

[Mother of Dragons]

The other question that isn't answered is HOW Net found Syrio. I always wondered what prompted him to pick a Braavosi outsider vs someone like Jory, or another of his guards. Maybe it doesn't matter, Syrio was referred or something. But I still think it was important that Jaqen knew her secret without being told her identity by anyone.

I do indeed wonder. Syrio's death is one of those things that seems a lot more speculative than is commonly believed.

I mean, here you have an incredibly deadly swordsman. He's just taken out five guardsmen alone. With a practice sword. He now faces... Meryn Trant, the Terror of Nowhere and Nothing, whose primary claim to fame is that he blew whatever guy he needed to blow in order to get into the KG.

Trant is in full plate armor, slow, and on his best day, mediocre with a blade. Syrio is fast as a cat and hyper-skilled. The floor is littered with steel swords, any of which Syrio can pick up long before Trant can stop him.

Syrio's goal is not to kill Trant. Syrio simply wants to occupy Trant long enough to give Arya time to get away.

All we know of the outcome of that plan, really, is that Syrio succeeded (because she did get away), Trant doesn't die, and there's been no word whatever of Syrio since.

Under these circumstances, does Syrio die?

GRRM, when asked, said "Draw your own conclusions." I have to chuckle at that. Just like the Hound did, on the show, when Arya suggested Syrio was dead last season.