Heresy 158

[Black Crow]

My prediction, previously made on these pages, is that someone, probably Arya, will interact with Phario Forel, who will speak of his illustrious, distant ancestor, Syrio Forel, who was the First Sword of Braavos long ago. Remember that those faces in the basement can keep for a long time.

Needn't be that distant. The First Sword may serve the Sealord for life, but presumably if the said Sealord pops his clogs the First Sword is out on his ear and has to re-apply to the new guy. Why else would Syrio Forel be available to serve Lord Eddard as his daughter's dancing master in the first place. And isn't that something of a come-down - the sort of thing that might lead a proud man to the doors of the House of Black and White.

[Eira Seren]

Not sure, but I know it's after Lady is dead :crying:

Weird that Jon could connect to Grey Wind, but we didn't see any warg dreams from Robb. Curious, don't you think?

Ninja'd by Phillip f. It is weird to me that bran can't sense grey wind. Arya can sense numerous over a great distance. But Jon can speak with the dead. And possibly Sansa could at one point. Jon seems to be able to do this with more than just the wolves though.

Its worth noting this passage in the prologue to AGoT:

A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on the water with every step it took.

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice.

Behind him, to right, to left, all around him the watchers stood patient, faceless, silent, the shifting patterns of their delicate armor making them all but invisible in the wood. Yet they made no move to interfere.

The Other said something in a language that Will did not know, his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking.

The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given. Swords rose and fell, all in a deathly silence. It was cold butchery. The pale blades sliced through ringmail as if it were silk. Will closed his eyes. Far beneath him, he heard their voices and laughter sharp as icicles.

Ambiguity is everywhere in GRRM's writing, and the question here is whether in this Will POV it is GRRM who is identifying the first walker as an Other or whether Will recognises him as one.

There is of course the age-old conundrum of the three blasts of the horn for the Others and how they are to be recognised as such. The easy answer might be anything which isn't quite human, yet although the horn was very properly blown thrice at the Fist as the first wave of wights surged up, Sam, stumbling along after the fight kept thinking of the Others and had no difficulty in recognising Ser Puddles as one - then or afterwards when describing what was in the archives

My impression is that if one knows the stories, it isn't rocket science to put it together. Sam and will have a bit of an advantage over someone like Royce, from the south (who has, like the Starks, forgotten something essential in the family motto) and only thinks of snarks and grumpkins, possibly without any clear idea of what that could look like.

Course, will has already seen a village of dead wildlings and knows about the cold. So he has an advantage, imo. Also he spends a lot of time praying up that tree. Who knows what that could lead to?

And, as a public service announcement, I believe it is just possible there *may*, in a very West Saxon, subjunctivey, sense, be such a thing as an ice balrog.

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj109/shalott7/Mobile%20Uploads/i

[Eira Seren]

That should read 'arya can sense nymeria' but it won't let me edit (?)

[Black Crow]

Well given the size of the pack "Numerous" probably isn't too far off.

[Eira Seren]

Another thing I like to suggest (don't know if someone thought of it before) is that Lyanna was in the dornish mountains to hide her and her pregnancy from the trees, Ned didn't return the bones of his companions to prevent their memories from entering the weirwood.net. Only Lyanna was buried under a Heart Tree and we speculated before that the Winterfell Heart Tree is somehow guarded and that Bloodraven can't access its memories.

Hadn't even occurred to me that Ned might leave their bones in the south to shield them from the weirwoods.

[Eira Seren]

There once was an interesting thread here

Whose members were very well read, dear.

It’s St. Paddy’s day,

I shout a Sláinte,

And share my old Nan’s soda bread. Cheers!

Apologies for the poetic license, but no apologies for the bread (or the beer).

Nice one :)

[Eira Seren]

Well given the size of the pack "Numerous" probably isn't too far off.

Autocorrect has it again

[Mother of Dragons]

Needn't be that distant. The First Sword may serve the Sealord for life, but presumably if the said Sealord pops his clogs the First Sword is out on his ear and has to re-apply to the new guy. Why else would Syrio Forel be available to serve Lord Eddard as his daughter's dancing master in the first place. And isn't that something of a come-down - the sort of thing that might lead a proud man to the doors of the House of Black and White.

Good point. That would be a downer. I'm convinced now it was Jaqen because he knew Arya was Arya. Unless FM have more magic up their sleeves to help identify targets. I don't think that detail is supposed to matter, though. You wouldnt need magic to identify a target, you could find them eventually. But Arya was so out of her element. He had to of already known her.

I wish he'd of stayed Jaqen instead of hook nose, though. I know he had to change, but Jaqen had a better face.

[Mother of Dragons]

In addition, Mance talks of warring with the Others, as does Tormund, the tales associate them with leading armies of the slain, they're associated with the same magic (unpleasant cold, burning blue eyes), Coldhands implicitly links the two before the ambush at BR's cave, and GRRM's 1993 letter lumps the undead in with the same faction as the Others. The net totality of information associates the two.

First of all, the Ser Puddles nickname is very amusing! I assume from the context I've been reading that it refers to the wight Sam killed which taught him about dragonglass.

I didn't get the Coldhands connection. He's gotta be different somehow from the other WWs. He is capable of original thought, and he protects the kids and catches rogue rangers for them to eat. He also speaks the common tongue. He may know the screechy language, but he seems to remember how to communicate with people. I'd venture a crackpot and suggest that maybe someone with powerful warging skills is using the animated corpse to help them, but we know from Leaf he's been dead a long time. Otherwise any old corpse could be used. Leaf's comment hints that she knows who he is if she is making that statement. So I guess he's in cahoots with Blood Raven, somehow, as he helped them along for awhile on their journey. Or at least I thought he did.

I wonder if you can warg into an Other or WW. I know they're kind of unpleasant, but you could gather some useful intel that way.

Last note, when I think of The Others, now, I imagine them as ancient walking dead. They're even called "walkers".

[Mother of Dragons]

That should read 'arya can sense nymeria' but it won't let me edit (?)

What were you saying about Jon sensing the dead? You mean Grey Wind? I thought the text said something like "one he could no longer sense"? As for Sansa, I'll try again to find the dream chapter. It's definitely at KL, which doesn't narrow it much.

Also, the page won't load for the ice balrog.

[Black Crow]

Good point. That would be a downer. I'm convinced now it was Jaqen because he knew Arya was Arya. Unless FM have more magic up their sleeves to help identify targets. I don't think that detail is supposed to matter, though. You wouldnt need magic to identify a target, you could find them eventually. But Arya was so out of her element. He had to of already known her.

I wish he'd of stayed Jaqen instead of hook nose, though. I know he had to change, but Jaqen had a better face.

I dare say that once "Pate" has outlived his usefulness another face will take his place.

[Black Crow]

First of all, the Ser Puddles nickname is very amusing! I assume from the context I've been reading that it refers to the wight Sam killed which taught him about dragonglass.

The Ser Puddles tag has indeed been around for quite some time and to be honest I don't even think it originated in Heresy. It does indeed refer to the white walker [not a wight - never a wight] who got pinked by Sam and melted into a puddle of very cold water - just as the Ice Dragon did.

Mind you I preferred the HBO image of him swirling away in a cloud of ice crystals, which is what I imagine the Wall doing when it comes down.

[Frey family reunion]

Ninja'd by Phillip f. It is weird to me that bran can't sense grey wind. Arya can sense numerous over a great distance. But Jon can speak with the dead. And possibly Sansa could at one point. Jon seems to be able to do this with more than just the wolves though.

My impression is that if one knows the stories, it isn't rocket science to put it together. Sam and will have a bit of an advantage over someone like Royce, from the south (who has, like the Starks, forgotten something essential in the family motto) and only thinks of snarks and grumpkins, possibly without any clear idea of what that could look like.

Course, will has already seen a village of dead wildlings and knows about the cold. So he has an advantage, imo. Also he spends a lot of time praying up that tree. Who knows what that could lead to?

Yes, if one knows the stories it's easy to put together. I think this is part of the con. These creatures are like something lifted right out of a horror story, easily identifiable as the boogeymen whose tales are told to children to scare them into behaving. If someone wanted to maximize terror in the people's of the north, this is what they would come up with. Ice creatures in ice armor with ice swords, leading legions of the dead. But how often does Martin provide something this cliche? Someone is creating these boogeymen to scare people south of the Wall, the question is why?

[Matthew.]

I didn't get the Coldhands connection. He's gotta be different somehow from the other WWs.

What I was referring to is the brief bit of conversation Coldhands has with Bran's group just prior to the wight attack. In the lead up to the attack he has become extra vigilant, knowing something is wrong, yet frustrated that he cannot spot their attackers; Bran tries to ease the tension by pointing out that there are no tracks around, to which Coldhands says the WWs leave no tracks in the snow.

To me, this suggests that Coldhands knew something 'cold' was out there, and his warning about the WWs suggests they would have been hostile to the group as well. The point is that it reinforces the idea that the two are linked--a notion that not every poster accepts.

[Black Crow]

What I was referring to is the brief bit of conversation Coldhands has with Bran's group just prior to the wight attack. In the lead up to the attack he has become extra vigilant, knowing something is wrong, yet frustrated that he cannot spot their attackers; Bran tries to ease the tension by pointing out that there are no tracks around, to which Coldhands says the WWs leave no tracks in the snow.

To me, this suggests that Coldhands knew something 'cold' was out there, and his warning about the WWs suggests they would have been hostile to the group as well. The point is that it reinforces the idea that the two are linked--a notion that not every poster accepts.

Indeed, and especially given his absence from the show I'm still inclined, with a nod towards Conrad, to see him as the Russian, a mysterious figure of no significance in himself who guides Marlow and the Pilgrims to Kurtz and then disappears into the interior - but not before telling Marlow that the ambush just outside was actually ordered by Kurtz.

[Black Crow]

Yes, if one knows the stories it's easy to put together. I think this is part of the con. These creatures are like something lifted right out of a horror story, easily identifiable as the boogeymen whose tales are told to children to scare them into behaving. If someone wanted to maximize terror in the people's of the north, this is what they would come up with. Ice creatures in ice armor with ice swords, leading legions of the dead. But how often does Martin provide something this cliche? Someone is creating these boogeymen to scare people south of the Wall, the question is why?

Its an interesting way of looking at it and not at all incompatible with my post immediately above.

[Voice]

I know it's bad, but the first part of this post was pretty funny! :laugh:

I think you're right about him staying away from intimate relationships; the cripple part makes it more obvious/easier for him to play a childless Stark.

Glad you caught the humor :D

I don't know i read it as the phrase triggered Jamie pushing him out the Window:

" He tried to remember.A face swam up at him out of the grey mist.shining with light ,golden. "The things i do for love," It said.Bran screamed.

So to me it was Jamie's face that scared him because it's connected to his fall.

"He looked deep into the heart of Winter and then he cried out afriad and the heat of his tears burned on his cheecks."

I don't see this as having anything to do with sex though.

Indeed. We don't know what Bran saw in the heart of winter of course. And you're right, it was just Jaime's face, rather than the two-backed beast that swam up into Bran's field of vision.

My theory is just a theory to link the two outbursts. I'm glad you agree though that the image of Jaime inspires utter fear in young Bran, as that is the key to unlocking Shadow #2 as Ser Barristan Selmy at the Trident ;)

Yes it is,a coincidence because like almost everyone in this story "seeing wight horde and thinking Others".You actually think when that horn blew to signify Others that they actually could pick out Puddles in a blizzard.Come on now you are a linquist no?

Is Grenn also suffering from PTSD?

Not to mention: Notice Sam's thought's ,the tone of his thoughts.The reaction

Who goes there?” A horse’s head emerged from the darkness. Sam felt a moment’s relief, until he saw the horse. Hoarfrost covered it like a sheen of frozen sweat, and a nest of stiff black entrails dragged from its open belly. On its back was a rider pale as ice.....The Other slid gracefully from the saddle to stand upon the snow. Sword-slim it was, and milky white. Its armor rippled and shifted as it moved, and its feet did not break the crust of the new-fallen snow.The wights had been slow clumsy things, but the Other was light as snow on the wind. it slid away from Paul’s axe, armor rippling, and its crystal sword twisted and spun and slipped between the iron rings of

Paul’s mail, through leather and wool and bone and flesh.

Sam wished he could believe that, but it seemed to him that when you were dead, fear had no more meaning than pain or love or duty. He wrapped his hands around his legs, sweating under his layers of wool and leather and fur. The dragonglass dagger had melted the pale thing in the woods, true . . . but Grenn was talking like it would do the same to the wights.

When Puddles turned up that was the First time he or Grenn ever saw something that looked like that.Further validated by his conversation with Jon about the Others.He only mentioned the "One he saw on the horse" Why because it was his first encounter with "that".PTSD my arse look at the detail observed by Sam.He could write a letter recounting everything he saw all the horroe of who got their neck twisted or entrails shredded and miss out seeing WWs.Miss out seeing some dudes directing traffic?

Indeed. He knows the details of the events at the Fist. Which is precisely why he didn't only think back on them in terms of a wight attack. He also thought back on it and shivered at the association of white walkers. I know you don't read it that way. I was just pointing out that irony in my comment. Why shouldn't we associate wights with white walkers given Ser Waymar's rise after falling to one, and the outrider that happened upon Sam, just after he thinks about them in association with the Fist, and just as he's walking away from the Fist massacre itself?

It requires a desire to separate the cause from the effect that I simply do not share. Personally, it was clear enough in Old Nan's story, but now, the 1993 letter reconfirms this relationship as well:

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."

I know this was a few pages back, but that was a good catch. Was thinking of what you, Eira, BC, & a few others (including myself) wrote about warging, and I'm not so sure anymore that Sansa had a wofdream like her siblings vs dreamed about Lady. I'm frustrated because I just skimmed through GoT & CoK and I can't find the passage; it's going to bother me now.

I recall female wildling wargs in ADWD, as already mentioned, and we know Arya and Jon can warg even if they aren't as good as Bran yet. I guess my point about Sansa was, if she was having a dream vs looking through the eyes of a wolf, maybe she lost potential for warging when she chose her path at the trident. I don't expect this to be answered, but I'll be interested to see if she develops more bonds with animals. She started getting close to the old dog at the fingers, but wasn't really there long enough for us to find out.

I think I changed my mind about her warging and/or skinchanging ability though.

It probably won't be answered simply, but I think the absence of skinchanging events in Sansa's POV chapters may provide us with an answer once the series is concluded. In the meantime, her potential to skinchange remains. Though Lady was killed before her time, Sansa was still able to bond with it. Her sadness began at the Trident. Perhaps that is what comes when one's warg wolf is killed by one's father... :dunno:

[Voice]

Catch up time...

I think it's the relationship we saw thousands of years ago continued: I see the Others as the Greenseers serviced by his posse of Children aka the (WWs) and (dead) humans.Essentially a recreated pact.

Entirely possible. But as I've stated before, we've no textual reason to link the Others with greenseers, nor the cotf with white walkers and dead humans. Instead, I think they are a threat created by Men, for Men. The Others represent the doom we bring upon ourselves. That infamous sword without a hilt.

[Voice]

The idea that everyone in the story sees the wight horde and assumes Others are associated is only a theory, and the assumption that Sam is jumping to a similar conclusion is also a theory, neither conclusion having any textual support.

Sam immediately identifies the thing he's seeing as an Other. First he describes it's physical characteristics - a pale rider - then he describes what's it doing in terms of 'knowing' it as an Other, eg. "the Other slid gracefully from the saddle..." There's no confusion, no "What the hell am I witnessing," he knows an Other when he sees one.

And why shouldn't he, since, within that same chapter:

"The dead have no mercy left in them, and the Others . . . no, I mustn't think of that, don't think, don't remember, just walk, just walk, just walk."

How can you force yourself to not remember something you never knew in the first place?

In addition, Mance talks of warring with the Others, as does Tormund, the tales associate them with leading armies of the slain, they're associated with the same magic (unpleasant cold, burning blue eyes), Coldhands implicitly links the two before the ambush at BR's cave, and GRRM's 1993 letter lumps the undead in with the same faction as the Others. The net totality of information associates the two.

Thanks for that Matt, and well said. We were in full scale celebration mode and I didn't feel like digging up quotes, but that's the one I was referring to.

[Voice]

I largely agree with Matthew on Craster's sons. I believe they are the payment needed to create the ice demons and the important part that is sacrificed is their blood/life rather than their souls. Only death can pay for life. After the ice-bodies are created they are inhabited/skinchanged into/taken over by old (human) souls straight out of the Heart of Winter (the HotU chapter is a good hint how a heart can store souls) and the souls of Craster's sons are doomed for a life in the back of the mind like Hodor when Bran takes him over. They only take babies because their minds are weak and easy to keep in check (again like Hodor).

I can see no contradiction to GRRM's statement that they are made of ice. They are. But to animate them a life force is needed and Craster's sons provide just that.

If it is the other way around and Craster's sons souls are planted into ice-bodies then how can they speak the Old Tongue? Why do they behave different from normal wildlings or from their sisters? What connects them to the Others of old? Why do they seem to follow a common purpose?

I think the old "only death may pay for life" adage is at play. But, where I differ, is that I do not see white walkers as juvenile as BC, and perhaps Matthew. White walkers are not children. While at times they may laugh at an inferior foe, and set booby traps, they are not behaving like children. They are behaving like soldiers.

I think this latest quote from GRRM further confirms that white walkers are not human changelings. They are not orcs. They are not shadowbabies. They are not vampires. They are not golems. They are GRRM's own unique creation.

Regarding the Others-wight relationship I agree with the Voice but it is an argument I had many times now with wolfmaid and I don't think anything new would come of discussing it again. All I want to say is that GRRM is again showing that he is the master of ambiguity as there certainly is some wiggle room for wolfmaids theory because we never directly see an Other with the wights. But then again we only see the Others two times in five books.

Agreed. While I do not agree with wolfmaid's interpretation of the wight-white walker relationship, I think her reasons for denying the connection are interesting. I may get some of them wrong right now, but one of the interesting points she has brought up is the idea that the Others are a reckoning of sorts. Which I totally agree with. She thinks white walkers seek to bring about a painful balance Men must learn to abide. I even sort of agree with that...though I think the "balance" they seek will only benefit them and not the land. I think the Others seek land, and that they terraform with their cold winds of winter. I think wolfmaid brings up some interesting ideas when we debate this, as GRRM does seem influenced by the idea of climate change. And, I do quite like the idea of First Men being the cause behind it/them, rather than some nefarious greenseer/cotf.