Heresy 158

[Mother of Dragons]

Wow Tyrion has a beard now. I ended up reading GRRM's post about how many seasons the show could go. He said HBO has been saying consistently since season 1 that they want it to go 10yrs. Id imagine they'd run out of book material by then. But it's the show and it's focused more on the Game anyway. I can absolutely see it being continued solely on D&Ds ideas though I know GRRM would throw in ideas as well.

It's good he's still a producer, so hopefully he won't let them get too wild and crazy. 10 seasons is a lot considering how fast they've advanced. I guess that means the show finishes first.

When I worked for B&N, I thought that GRRM was going to release WoW to coincide with corresponding season, as that's how many books are released if they are made into a TV show or movie series. Now I'm not so sure unless WoW gets released next spring, this season doesn't zip through Dance & the next book.

Also, GRRM would need to have a lot of material saved up nobody knows about, so I feel a little doubtful now about that. Still, I wonder how different the show will end up being, or it will become spoilerish. I read somewhere when the show first started that D&D know the ending so they don't diverge to far from it.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Yeah i was thinking the 5 year gap myself. Did he really scrap that. If so then,i don't see it happening even by accident.By ASOIAF standards i think even that would be too much to put Jon with a 10yr old.

He did. It's gonzo. He's already remarked that his characters are going to be younger than he'd imagined when it comes time to save the world. Seems enough of a challenge without calling additional attention to the fact with awkward sexual encounters.

[WeaselPie]

George mentioned that he felt really silly about that planned 5 year jump. He imagined it originally going something like Jon sitting on the Wall going "Well, it's been 5 fairly quiet years since I've been Lord Commander. But I'm starting to think that'll pick up now..." and realised that the adults wouldn't wait in their plot lines for Arya to hit puberty."

Still awkward.

[Balerion06]

I have to admit I'm fairly glad the 5 year gap has been scrapped. Glossing over all that character development might have just resulted in the same characters being utterly unrecognizable. Some like Arya might have even ended up feeling like cliches.

[The Reckoner]

On the other hand, it could put more work on the reader in terms of figuring out how everyone's changed, why, and ultimately made for a more rewarding read than sitting through "training" scenes. As it is, I've sort of glossed over a lot of it.

[Balerion06]

On the other hand, it could put more work on the reader in terms of figuring out how everyone's changed, why, and ultimately made for a more rewarding read than sitting through "training" scenes. As it is, I've sort of glossed over a lot of it.

Fair enough. But the problem is if you jump straight from SoS Arya to Mercy and don't see the thought process of how she became an assassin, she's just going to come across as a generic badass female warrior cliche. In a different vein, the same would be true of Sansa if we meet her when she's become some master player of the game.

It works for some older characters like Jon and Stannis who won't change much in personality (though there'd be no way to justify them sitting around twiddling their thumbs for 5 years), but it'd probably be a total wreck with the younger characters going through training arcs, especially because so much of their training is focused on their thought processes.

[Voice]

Not so much wanting to see it happen for its own sake but rather seeing no reason why it shouldn't especially given that its linked in the synopsis to the revelation as to who Jon's mother was. Its also consistent with their current separation and Arya's eventual return not as a child but as a confident young woman - a veritable Nymeria.

Sure. I can see how it's possible, it just seems like Martin already had Ygritte fill in for Jon's romantic turmoil. And Arya, like Asha, seems wed to her blade.

[Voice]

Certainly not into pubic hair mussing.

GRRM has any number of options. For instance, if the Popsicles are melted for good and all, and the Watch is no longer a formal body, Rickon could become a dominant lord of what had been a beyond-the-Wall territory (though needing a regent in the short run).

Or, if the Popsicles remain a potential threat and the Watch/Wall are preserved, Rickon could be tagged for a future role similar to Benjen's.

It's hard for me to imagine GRRM writing much about him, though, given the endless number of more major and more probable items on his To Do list. We're down to the last two books.

Agreed on both counts

[Voice]

I know and yet ,the world awaits with arses clenched for Howland Reed who hasn't been seen for 5 books.But we accept that though he hasn't been seen he has something important to "reveal" come crunch time.

One more sentence I never dreamed I'd think or write:

Count me proudly among those who have their arses clenched.

You make a great point, but there's no doubt Howland could shed far more light on our most discussed mysteries than Mel ever will. The dude's been to the Isle!

[Voice]

In the books - Jon/Arya has clearly been scrapped.

Agreed. Ygritte clearly filled Arya's synopsis role. I think BC's take on Jon/Arya makes sense if Rhaegar never slept with Lyanna. But according to the text, he did. This strongly suggests GRRM swapped Jon/Arya for Rhaegar/Lyanna.

[Voice]

@Wolfmaiden & Black Crow:

Thanks again- I'll get overwhelmed because while in my social circle and family I'm considered "someone who reads a lot", I'm blown away by all the details people remember and pick up. I've been a fan of the books for awhile now, but I can't quote the book like some people quote the bible (like you guys) so it's nice you have this Heresy thread set up with an index, kind of like a wiki page for all the mysteries.

Hi MoD, welcome! And just to echo what others have said, new blood is what keeps Heresy on its toes. I hope you will jump right in.

[Voice]

If we presume the show and books must be telling basically the same story with respect to all the major characters.

I'm just increasingly doubtful of that premise. The upcoming season in particular looks like it will deviate even more than the past one, to the point where GRRM assures us

For years now in interviews, he's been predicting that the "butterfly effect" is going to spin the books and show in different directions. I take him at his word.

Agreed. And Jeyne Westerling agrees too. Lol

[Balerion06]

Sure. I can see how it's possible, it just seems like Martin already had Ygritte fill in for Jon's romantic turmoil. And Arya, like Asha, seems wed to her blade.

Not only that, it would appear the Jon-Arya-Tyrion love triangle seems to have been instead replaced by the Jon-Arya-fArya-Ramsay web (also note that it's Ramsay who fulfills Synopsis-Tyrion's role of burning down winterfell).

So I'm in the camp that doubts there's going to be a Jon-Arya romance.

Besides, I feel like their sibling relationship is enough.

[Voice]

Then factor in the enforced gap and its not Arya Underfoot who arrives on the Wall but a growed-up Arya, and not a great lady but someone more akin to Ygritte on Speed.

I'm not sure how big a problem meth is in your area BC, but it's pretty common here in California. Ygritte on Speed sounds grotesque indeed....

[Balerion06]

Following my previous line of thought, if the Jon-Arya-Tyrion romance has been ditched, along with however Jon's parentage was supposed to allow them to overcome that incestuous-feeling obstacle in their romance, then maybe what Jon's parentage is supposed to allow him to do in the current story is to help him find a way to save fArya from Ramsay.

He was already prepared to break his oaths for Arya's sake. Now that he's been stabbed and betrayed by his brothers, perhaps he's going to delve into something magical (and perhaps dark) that his parentage gives him access to if it means rescuing his little sister.

[Voice]

Not only that, it would appear the Jon-Arya-Tyrion love triangle seems to have been instead replaced by the Jon-Arya-fArya-Ramsay web (also note that it's Ramsay who fulfills Synopsis-Tyrion's role of burning down winterfell).

So I'm in the camp that doubts there's going to be a Jon-Arya romance.

Besides, I feel like their sibling relationship is enough.

Nice catch! Indeed Ramsay is our Synopsis-Tyrion! Nicely done :cheers:

[Balerion06]

Nice catch! Indeed Ramsay is our Synopsis-Tyrion! Nicely done :cheers:

Haha while I'd love to take credit for it, it was another poster a few heresies back who pointed that out.

Unfortunately, I can't remember who.

[Voice]

This as GRRMs version of Golem and the ring. And all along I thought his Golem was Theon. This has to happen now.

Glad someone caught that LOL

[Eira Seren]

True, except that Rickon has already been shown as having hidden in the crypts.

Howland's residential status in Lyanna's crypt, lo these past seventeen years, remains as a wonderful revelation for WOW.

How he managed to cope with the Balrog, I have no idea. Maybe he tricked the Balrog into thinking he was a fellow supernatural entity? -- by covering himself with Lyanna's dragon-spangled wedding cloak from the Isle of Faces?

Perhaps because the Balrog only exists in his imagination :) Though the wedding cloak. . . seems like something god-awful enough to repel just about anything. :ack: Did not know those on the Isle of Faces knew about bdazzling.

Lol I guess we haven't seen stalker-style creepiness in the series yet. Howland spending 17 years cuddling with Lyanna's corpse would be a great way to start. I think you've just spoiled the next prologue!

Rose for Emily?

True Rickin wasn't a part of the synopsis but i think GRRM has designed a pivitol role for him. If he wasn't needed in the story why write him in only to have him be insignificant so far.I think we like characters in the story have greatly overlooked Rickon.But while GRRM has done something overt with Bran Rickon's path followed the same path but has been more subtle.Looking at Rickon wild,shaggy,won't let no one cut his hair.He is the one character that most embodies the original depiction of Garth Greenhand ,The Wild Man of the Woods and thus that archatype and he too while not physically planted beneath a hill has been hidden away beyond by a goddess type no less in Osha.

I don't think he needs to do a big right up for him,if we've followed the clues so far and know "what type of person does and goes where" Rickon can easily be placed where he needed to be.

. . .

Like the connection to Greenhand. Also, you seem to see a connection between Osha and Val? Or are they quite opposite?

So do you think Arya will start assassinating enemies before going to the Wall, or assist Jon with her new skill? I used to think she'd meet up back with Jaqen first, but I think he's gone, and his purpose was a way to lead Arya to Braavos to become a war machine- I liked his character, but I'm going to be alright if he doesn't show up again.

All those names she says at night and thirst for vengeance need closure, right? I have a feeling (or hope) she'll not be reunited with her family until she's reunited with Nymeria. I think Nymeria is still relevant because she still gets attention in the series, and she's leading a growing wolfpack that's hunting down Lannisters.

Did GRRM say ALL the Starks would return to the North? Because with Sansa, I thought that would never happen once Lady died. She chose another family and it seemed like a permanent cut from the Starks. Maybe he's being clever & Sansa will marry and no longer be technically a Stark so she won't return. All of the Stark kiddies reuniting at the end seems like too much happiness to hope for, but one can dream.

This, about Lady, is interesting. Maybe Sansa has lost her way back home. A question might be, did it happen as a result of her refusing to have Arya's back?

[Voice]

Following my previous line of thought, if the Jon-Arya-Tyrion romance has been ditched, along with however Jon's parentage was supposed to allow them to overcome that incestuous-feeling obstacle in their romance, then maybe what Jon's parentage is supposed to allow him to do in the current story is to help him find a way to save fArya from Ramsay.

He was already prepared to break his oaths for Arya's sake. Now that he's been stabbed and betrayed by his brothers, perhaps he's going to delve into something magical (and perhaps dark) that his parentage gives him access to if it means rescuing his little sister.

I do agree his present state of bleeding out will aid his 3rd Eye development, but there are a couple of problems with this. First, of course, it isn't Arya, and Ramsay doesn't have Jeyne Poole any more. En route to Winterfell he would surely have made common cause with Stannis and learned the truth from Theon. Second, I don't see how his blood would've mattered in the Ramsay/fArya dilemma, if he hadn't been stabbed.

Now that he has been stabbed, and is likely lying unconscious, he'll be free to roam the crypts of Winterfell, and descend into those ancient depths. Good stuff. Of course, Mel or Clydas will probably revive him just before he sees anything cool.