Sympathy for the Blackfyres

[Bironic]

Aegon gave Daemon the lands and titles when he knighted him at twelve. Daeron's gifts don't seem like much since he already had everything and he was a prince no matter which side you take a place at the red keep isn't all to crazy

Well we have no proof that Aegon gave Daemon the right to raise a castle. In TWOIAF we only hear about lands and other honors. While Daeron's gifts are Lands near the blackwater and the right to raise a castle.

[Nic G]

Well we have no proof that Aegon gave Daemon the right to raise a castle. In TWOIAF we only hear about lands and other honors. While Daeron's gifts are Lands near the blackwater and the right to raise a castle.

did he want Daemon to pick up farming and use BF to cut down corn?

[bittersteelsgold]

Land is a source of income for Nobility, In a feudal system, they get the land and everything on it. From the plants to the people.

[yzq]

did he want Daemon to pick up farming and use BF to cut down corn?

As a matter of fact, I think Daeron has that intention indeed. If Daemon wants to remain a feudal lord, he must learn the ways of a feudal lord. If not, he can always be a sell-sword if he wants to participate in wars forever.

[Nic G]

As a matter of fact, I think Daeron has that intention indeed. If Daemon wants to remain a feudal lord, he must learn the ways of a feudal lord. If not, he can always be a sell-sword if he wants to participate in wars forever.

Daeron was born the crown prince and probably never worked a day in his life. He was supposed to be protector of the realm and didn't know how to fight his only accomplishment seemed to be marrying a donnish highborn and giving them way to much to come into the kingdom. where Darmon was a bastard son that had won respect and knighthood at a young age and it didn't seem to be like Daemon was 100% warmonger considering it was 8 years till the rebellion started and Daeron was the one that started it by sending the kings guard after him

[yzq]

As noted, he didn't need to fight as he could get others to do it for him. In fact, his son Baelor beat Daemon at a tourney once, hence the "Breakspear" nickname. The ability (and wisdom) to delegate tasks where you know you are inadequate is the true mark of a leader.

You also forget that under Aegon's (mis)rule, the kingdom's administration went down the drain, and he restored that to a large degree.

I agree with his failing to consider making Dorne compensate the Iron Throne and its vassals for Daeron I's invasion and the subsequent rebellion. He didn't have any excuse for that one.

[Nic G]

Baelor won that name by beating Daemon who was the same age so it sounds like that was a big deal and Daemon was really good.

I dont't think anyone considers Aegon IV a good ruler and I dont think I said he was good.

[yzq]

I suspect that was how Daeron got his "the Good" nickname. If he had succeeded a good king like the Old King, I genuinely doubt that he will be remembered as "the Good". As it was, merely being competent after the Unworthy's rule was enough to have people praise you to high heavens.

[Beorn Snow]

If one thing is clear is that succession was not clear when dealing with female inheritance. After all, Daenerys was claiming the throne of Westeros when the closest male relative of the last Targaryen king was... Robert the Usurper. :P

The World Book specifically states that many believed that Daenna should inherit the throne after Baelor's death, and that no fuss was made about it only because "a decade of isolation in the Maidenvault had left Daena and her sisters without powerful allies, and memories of the woes that had befallen the realm when last a woman sat the Iron Throne were still fresh. Daena the Defiant was seen by many lords as being wild and unmanageable besides . . . and wanton as well, for a year earlier she had given birth to a bastard son she named Daemon, whose sire she steadfastly refused to name."

Female succession or the lack thereof is starting to seem like a main theme. How else do the Starks still exist (or other old families) except occasionally matrilineally anyway.

The amethyst empress usurped by her uncle, brother or nephew the Bloodstone emperor. Rhaenyra meant to inherit the throne, her line though eventually inheriting despite great losses in the Dance of Dragons, and then we have this example.

Daemon is the true heir, not because of Aegon the unworthy ... No, through his mother.

[yzq]

On Daena, we don't even know what happened to her after Daemon was legitimized.

[Nic G]

On Daena, we don't even know what happened to her after Daemon was legitimized.

yeah the books do seem to leave a lot of questions about any tart that didn't sit the throne, they just seem to disappear...

[Mrs.Grumpy]

I usually like losers but I have no sympathy for the Blackfyres. I think I don't really care about them. I liked Daemon but oh well.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

I kinda think BS didn't support Daemon II because of his sexuality(along with the other things mentioned), when BS is all about continuing the Blackfyre line and Daemon not having "producing an heir" on his list of priorities causes some problems.

Yeah his gayness was the problem. The world book made it clear imo.

So BS is Bittersteel, right? I'm trying to make sense with some comments :rofl:

[ambi76]

They definitely got the shit end of the stick in the Dragon's Dynasty and all of GRRM's universe.

I like them better than the Targaryens, which doesn't actually say much, as I don't like the Targaryens at all.

[Nic G]

They definitely got the shit end of the stick in the Dragon's Dynasty and all of GRRM's universe.

I like them better than the Targaryens, which doesn't actually say much, as I don't like the Targaryens at all.

With how I feel it's going in the main story line with Daenerys probably ending up saving the day or something by the end it really just made me less excited for those last two books and made me way more interested in the history and the Blackfyres are my favorite part of that lol

[Tyrell_like_Squirrel]

Oh, I actually do like Daemon II. And Bittersteel isn't a Blackfyre, or is he? Some of Daemon's victories were rigged, but I doubt all of them were. He wasn't up to the task to defeat the better tourney knights but I'd also not assume that he was complete amateur. For instance, even Dunk realizes that Prince Valarr was at best an average lance yet he doesn't say the same about John the Fiddler.

And I actually find that Bittersteel harmed the Blackfyre cause by either not dissuading Peake and Daemon II from their plans or by not participating in them. His presence at Whitewalls as well as Blackfyre itself could have made some difference. Sure, it most likely would not have been enough, but you really get the impression that the Second Blackfyre Rebellion also failed because the Blackfyre loyalists were not fully committed to the whole thing - even those who were at Whitewalls.

If you check TWoIaF it is essentially confirmed that Bittersteel may not have backed Daemon II because of his sexual preferences as well as his taste for the finer things in life - but neither is a reason to abandon your true king.

Oh, and Renly was a capable tourney knight and warrior in his own right. Not as good as Loras but still very capable and successful.

You make some pretty good points, and I might be a bit overhasty in my jump to critisize Daemon II. Personally he seems alright, but I'd have to re-read D&E because I remember reading that all his victoriess at the tourney were basically set up for him to win. And yeah, I do think BS was homophobic and that played into his decision to not support Daemon II. Still I think if Daemon and Peake had laid low for a while, they might have had more success. As to your point about BS not doing enough to stop them, I think its possible he let them go through with their plans because he thought Daemon might fail, and that would clear the way for a more preferable candidate like Haegon.

And in regards to Renly I meant it as a critique of their political leadership. I'm not too impressed with Renly as a leader tbh. All show, no substance. That's basically how I feel about Daemon II.

[Lord Varys]

I've asked George years ago whether Daena being of the elder Targaryen line and her being passed over as queen played a role in the gestation of the Blackfyre rebellion. He didn't completely dismiss the possibility but made it clear that everything began with 'the sword'.

TMK mentions some of the matches for Daemon that were rigged but I doubt the knights there were all that good or that Daemon was as demented to think he was a great knight when he was bad. You really have to have a wrong perception of pretty much everything to think that. He most likely only overestimated his abilities but wasn't a complete moron.

As to Haegon:

We don't know how great a guy he is turning out to be. Daemon II had charisma perhaps Haegon lacks that? It may be that Bittersteel only preferred Haegon because he was more like him or not gay/drawn to the finer things in life.

Generally I'm looking forward to all the children and descendants of Daemon Blackfyre as I think that many of them have the potential to be tragic and interesting. I've a lot of sympathy for them as they are raised in exile and were mostly likely fed the idea that they were the rightful kings from a very early age, and some of them were misled and sacrificed by people they trusted. Aenys Blackfyre should be a pretty good example for that. Although I hope he'll turn out to be an actual threat to the Targaryens, say, being a charismatic orator well-connected both in Westeros and Essos with a good chance to sway the Lords at the Great Council to his side.

Daemon I, though, does not strike as particularly interesting. He was a great knight and all but that does not necessarily make a great king, and he let himself being used by others. In fact, I think Daemon II was a lot like Daemon I in the regard that he wasn't really in control of the people surrounding him. Gormon Peake seems to be very much the second Daemon's Bittersteel. We know too less about Daemon I but considering that he was a warrior all his life and never a royal prince prepared for the Crown it would strike me as unlikely that he would have made a great king. He could have become a variation of Robert (another warrior king), Aegon II (a prince unprepared for the crown).

We could also try to compare Daemon I to Renly. Sure, Daemon would have been a much better warrior but it would have been his prowess as a knight what drew many men to him - which is essentially another variation of the 'style over substance' theme we see in Renly as well.

[Lion of the West]

I've asked George years ago whether Daena being of the elder Targaryen line and her being passed over as queen played a role in the gestation of the Blackfyre rebellion. He didn't completely dismiss the possibility but made it clear that everything began with 'the sword'.

TMK mentions some of the matches for Daemon that were rigged but I doubt the knights there were all that good or that Daemon was as demented to think he was a great knight when he was bad. You really have to have a wrong perception of pretty much everything to think that. He most likely only overestimated his abilities but wasn't a complete moron.

As to Haegon:

We don't know how great a guy he is turning out to be. Daemon II had charisma perhaps Haegon lacks that? It may be that Bittersteel only preferred Haegon because he was more like him or not gay/drawn to the finer things in life.

Generally I'm looking forward to all the children and descendants of Daemon Blackfyre as I think that many of them have the potential to be tragic and interesting. I've a lot of sympathy for them as they are raised in exile and were mostly likely fed the idea that they were the rightful kings from a very early age, and some of them were misled and sacrificed by people they trusted. Aenys Blackfyre should be a pretty good example for that. Although I hope he'll turn out to be an actual threat to the Targaryens, say, being a charismatic orator well-connected both in Westeros and Essos with a good chance to sway the Lords at the Great Council to his side.

Daemon I, though, does not strike as particularly interesting. He was a great knight and all but that does not necessarily make a great king, and he let himself being used by others. In fact, I think Daemon II was a lot like Daemon I in the regard that he wasn't really in control of the people surrounding him. Gormon Peake seems to be very much the second Daemon's Bittersteel. We know too less about Daemon I but considering that he was a warrior all his life and never a royal prince prepared for the Crown it would strike me as unlikely that he would have made a great king. He could have become a variation of Robert (another warrior king), Aegon II (a prince unprepared for the crown).

We could also try to compare Daemon I to Renly. Sure, Daemon would have been a much better warrior but it would have been his prowess as a knight what drew many men to him - which is essentially another variation of the 'style over substance' theme we see in Renly as well.

Or maybe Daemon would have been charismatic Maekar or an Aegon the Conqueror? We don't know so while its possible that he'd turn out to be a fool its also possible that he'd turn out to be a very good king.

[VVSINGOFTHECROSS]

Or maybe Daemon would have been charismatic Maekar or an Aegon the Conqueror? We don't know so while its possible that he'd turn out to be a fool its also possible that he'd turn out to be a very good king.

That is true, but it should be noted that from the houses we know apart from Robb Reyne it does not seem that many houses of true significance joined him. Bracken did not make it to the war so if he were truly as charismatic as believed, then surely he could've attracted more support than what we know of

[denny717]

Daemon 2 may not have been the best knight at the tourney, but I believe they only paid the best knights at the tourney. Fireballs bastard wasn't confronted about throwing the tourney until he had clearly proven himself. I think daemon2 was a great knight, just not the best. But I do think that he was being used completely, and had no control of the people using him, who were all coniving schemers who didn't really care about daemon2 real virtues like honor, skill at arms, or chivalry. They were all just over ambitious d-bags who had no real loyalty, and never would have followed daemon in the first place, unless victory was easy. Going to the tourney was definetly a bad idea.